Thinking Of Buying A Williams Crown Edition Steamer. Which Ones Are Best-WhatTo Avoid

I have the J-11 and love it. Any of the Brass engines by Williams have been good over the years (Hudson and Cab Forward years ago, wish had kept them), durable, PULLER and look good.

I have the Niagara and the Southern Pacific Daylight. Both are good runners and pullers. I run them in conventional. I do not think they were go through your curves. Although not 100% sure but I think in the brass line there were a few dogs. I think they were the smaller brass engines.............Paul

Test run it and make sure the reverse board is still functioning.  Same for the smoke, although they have a seuthe unit that is not real good. They run good and quite.  I have two K4's and an L1 and I love them.  They are a really good deal on the second hand market if the price is right.

Check the K4 at speed before you buy it. One of the club members had one and it vibrated so loudly it could be heard over all the other noises on the club layouts.

Usually the flywheel.  Pull that, and dead-smooth.

I have converted PRR turbine, 2-rail N&W "J", and a fleet of B6sbs.  All are superb for the initial cost.  I traded a "Gem" even for the last Williams B6.

Most are smooth out of the box.  The "J" had a badly out of balance flywheel.

What Bob said.  Some had flywheels that were out of balance, in some cases because they used single set screw.  All of these used a fairly high-rpm motor combined with a low gear ratio (the best part!)  However any vibration is amplified by the brass shell.  There's a reason they don't make band instruments out of die-cast metal! 

If you remove the flywheel the loco will still run (assuming the motor can be connected directly to the gearbox.)  But it won't coast.  The loco will stop on a proverbial dime, and if you mishandle the throttle it might result in a derailment, or even damage to the loco itself!  Instead, you could try installing something called Dynaxorb inside the shell.  I did this to one of mine and it quieted it right down.

Factory rubber tires will probably be rotten at this point, so you'll have to figure out which MTH locos had similar-sized drivers, and get new tires from MTH.  Detail on all of these was sparse, and realism is further reduced by shiny handrails, driver tires, etc.  Paint and weathering greatly improves the appearance, as would Precision Scale detail parts.  None of them had factory sound or command control.  Adding it will require insulating the tender shell from its frame, because radio signals won't penetrate the brass bodies.

Finally, the very earliest Williams locos (pre-1987) weren't especially well-made.  They turned the 3-rail brass business over to Weaver in 1990 just as they were getting good at it.  Definitely a bargain at current prices, but it will need some mechanical, cosmetic, and electronic upgrades to equal the best of today.

"Finally, the very earliest Williams locos (pre-1987) weren't especially well-made."  Correct, and they had to be from a different builder (these early locos are not without charm and can be made to be worth owning - if you keep the total cost way down).

Anyway, it should be mentioned that the Crown Edition brass was made by Samhongsa (Weaver's was too), a well-established Korean brass builder that produced good products. They also built quite a few higher-end 2-rail O-scale locos. They were in the die-cast business as well, and produced items for MTH and Lionel (by way of MTH) back in the earlier scale days. Lionel's die-cast scale L-3 Mohawk and Reading T-1 4-8-4 were Samhongsa products produced for Lionel by way of MTH as the "middle man" (Mr Wolf already had the Korean contacts; Lionel did not).

Or so I understand.

The "good" Williams brass is my favorite line of locos; I wish that there had been even more prototypes offered. They were built to a price (basic but good detailing; no Pittman motors), and really made 3RO worth messing with. My Wms brass USRA Mike with ERR Cruise Commander is a smooth and silent runner, Legacy-slow if you want.

The even later "Masterpiece" Williams brass is another story - they can be even better bargains - good stuff.

Williams Trains has had many identities, many iterations. Unfortunately, Mr Williams was known for caring nothing about archiving or the history of his enterprise. Too bad. It's the most interesting modern O-scale outfit.

The early Hudson's were not the best, the black Hudson ran ok but the SL Hudson was noisy and a bad runner and just never looked right. 

Just don't overpay for any of the early steam engines or the later ones for that matter. 

Dave

I think I'm up to nine of these now and I find them to be hit or miss.  Overall, they are a great value for the product, but some run better than others.  As many have said the earlier ones were not as consistent.  My best runners are any of the 4-8-4's, the Challenger, and the Mikado.  My Camelback has an issue with the tender trucks side frames spreading apart far enough that the wheel's fall off.  My K4s (pre-war version) has the front pony truck riding high as does the T-1. 

I still wouldn't hesitate to pick one up if the price was right, the condition was good, and if finances permitted.

I have a scale brass camelback by Williams.  It has bronze gearing and runs like a clock.  This is a Williams before Bachman.  It was manufactured by Samhongsa. ( sp? )  Of course like most Williams steamers, its not much on smoke.  I do like his engine a lot!  

If you ever want to know history about Williams Electric Trains, Frank Vacek knows lots.  He worked for Jerry Williams for many years.  Frank played a large part in the design of the scale Williams Hudson.  OGR might want to interview Frank.  It would make for a good read!  

If you can find a Master piece Hudson for $500 or so, buy it. Amazing brass quality at a bargain. This one has some extra detailing, but it was so good to begin with

You should also consider the K-Line scale Hudson. Great bones for additional detailing.

I used to have a Williams brass Crown Edition PRR Atlantic (4-4-2).  It ran like a top and was good looking.  It would probably get around your sharp curves.  I sold it because I didn't want to take the time to put Lionel command control in it.  Other projects were more pressing.

I also have a Williams Crown Edition brass SP GS-4 that I did convert to Lionel command control.  It is an outstanding engine but it does require at least O-72.

NH 

D500 posted:

...(snip).......

The "good" Williams brass is my favorite line of locos; I wish that there had been even more prototypes offered. They were built to a price (basic but good detailing; no Pittman motors), and really made 3RO worth messing with. My Wms brass USRA Mike with ERR Cruise Commander is a smooth and silent runner, Legacy-slow if you want.

...(snip)...

 

Was there something wrong with Pittman motors? I had always been led to believe they were very desirable, particularly if they were equipped with ball bearings...

Bill in FtL

 I have the Williams brass Atlantic . It runs fine on 042 track. It is a good runner with nice detail. It has a seuthe smoke  unit that is weak by todays standards. The Pacific and Camelback also part of their Crown series should run on 054. The Niagara and   Daylight locomotives do require 072 track. These engines can usually be found relatively reasonable on the used market. I am not sure if these smaller engines were made in Williams later Masterpiece series.

I recently acquired 2 PRR K4s' which are 2 rail versions.  A previous owner had added DCC to one engine, along with better separate details more closely exacting a late K4s.  After removing a seized, fan driven smoke unit ( also owner upgrade ) the loco runs super smoothly.  Having no on/off switch for smoke the guy I bought it from complained the loco set up an awful electrical draw.  Yeah, no kidding!  It will eventually end up being modified for 3 rail but for now remains a shelf dweller.

The other K is unmolested and a curious mix of period incorrectness.  Late pilot with a striped tender over a completely black paint job.  There are definitely better representations of K's these days but for under $250 for a good running pair, these are just fine, thank you.

Bruce

They are super deals, My K4's cost me $75 and $139 and the L1 set me back $175.  I was lucky to get the K4's that cheap.  They were both ebay buy it now that I saw and pulled the trigger immediately.  It is impressive that I got lucky twice though.  Both K4's had DOA reverse boards.  The L1 is perfect.

The factory finish black K4s.  Have yet to even run this one.

Bruce

I have a brass camelback and it is my favorite engine.  Runs like a clock and looks great.  Would likely buy another.

I have 2 K4s, an L1s, and a B6sb.  I love them all!  Back in the day I had TrainAmerica put TMCC, EOB, and Railsounds into the first three and TMCC into the B6sb.  Two years ago I replaced the B6sb and had All Aboard Trains put the Electric Railroad componentry into it (sound, too).  It's even more impressive.

Here's one of the K4s (post war pilot).

Here's the L1s.

Another shot of the Mikado rounding the curve.

I wish Williams had made a T-1 or a J or a Decapod as a Crown Edition.

George

aussteve posted:

I don't have any Williams Steam Engines and only one diesel.  I was going to shop for one of the Crown Edition steamers at York and was wondering what to look for, or what to avoid.  I have 054 and 042 curves and run conventional.  Thanks in advance.

I have the scale N&W J and i don’t think it could navigate 042. I run it on 072.

its been upgraded to proto 2/3 

trumptrain posted:

I have a scale brass camelback by Williams.  It has bronze gearing and runs like a clock.  This is a Williams before Bachman.  It was manufactured by Samhongsa. ( sp? )  Of course like most Williams steamers, its not much on smoke.  I do like his engine a lot!  

If you ever want to know history about Williams Electric Trains, Frank Vacek knows lots.  He worked for Jerry Williams for many years.  Frank played a large part in the design of the scale Williams Hudson.  OGR might want to interview Frank.  It would make for a good read!  

Yes Patrick, it is spelled correctly.  Their business cards however were presented it as Sam Hong Sa.  Seoul Korea is a vast place.  While visiting Cho Nam Dal (President of Ajin Precision) in his 4th floor office I inquired where Samhongsa was in Seoul.  Mr Cho pointed out his window to a building a block away and said "over there".

I had often heard that the builders used the same sources for paint, decals and other resources.  I also understood that many of the employees visited the same "watering holes".  

Train builders are an interesting culture all their own.  

Lou N

All my williams brass run great. The price you can get them for nowadays is great. I still think their J is great even by todays standards. I would never sell mine. John

BTW, the K4s and L1s navigate O31 curves.  The B6sb will also run on O31 but requires O42 when pushing cars because of the front coupler swing.  They are not very detailed by today's standards, but they run like Swiss watches and are very forgiving of less than perfect track.  They are smooth conventional runners and ultra-smooth under TMCC.  I love these locomotives.

George

Originally posted by Ted s:

Finally, the very earliest Williams locos (pre-1987) weren't especially well-made.  They turned the 3-rail brass business
 over to Weaver in 1990 just as they were getting good at it.  Definitely a bargain at current prices,
 but it will need some mechanical, cosmetic, and electronic upgrades to equal the best of today.

Who is They?

Williams certainly didn't turn the brass business over to Weaver Models, Jerry Williams Shot himself in the foot with this:

against the advice of his "second Hand Man" Mike Wolf and Andy Edelman, Jerry dumped his inventory at the year end ****ing off a LOT of Customers and collectors like me who paid top dollar 2 - 9 months previous to the sale with the USRA 2-8-2 and the brass freight cars and the rest of the Brass inventory. This consumer Anger got back to Jerry's brass manufacturer Samhongsa in Korea Who "Pulled the Plug" on Williams and found another outlet for their brass models with Weaver Models.

Remember the Collector market was HOT until 1991 and this REALLY shot the heart of the O gauge collector!

I wish Williams had made a T-1 or a J or a Decapod as a Crown Edition.

George

Well Three years later Williams did manage to pull off and deliver a PRR T1:

Arrived Undecorated [ Brass], Silver, Black and Tuscan.

prrhorseshoecurve posted:

I wish Williams had made a T-1 or a J or a Decapod as a Crown Edition.

George

Well Three years later Williams did manage to pull off and deliver a PRR T1:

Arrived Undecorated [ Brass], Silver, Black and Tuscan.

 

Very cool!  Thank you!

When should I expect it to show up on my doorstep? 

George

I have the two PRR K4 versions (streamlined and standard).

The good news is that they now sell for less than half their original price. Overall, they look nice.

The bad news is the detailing, while very good for the time, is not as good as many current die-casts. It does not have a whistle. The smoke unit is pathetic. The traction tires rot, as well as their replacements. If my memory serves me, you can't set it in "forward only". Bottom line: sorry I bought them.

The above is for my K4s. Others may be different. 

If you are mechanically inclined and understand how to tune them they can be quite a deal. Some ,not all, of them have the hole in the flywheel drilled slightly larger than the motor shaft and when you tighten the set screw it pulls the flywheel off center. I made a sleeve out of brass tubing to fill the gap and no more vibration. Some people mistake this out of center flywheel for gearbox problems but, as for me, all the gearboxes in my Williams locos are very smooth.  I sold my Williams PRR K4 and replaced it with a MTH PS1 version that I plan to convert to TMCC. I still have a Williams N&W  J,  a Camelback and a PRR L1 Mikado, all ran great out of the box, and I plan to keep them.  There are some very good deals on Williams locos. Some like the PRR K4 look a little bare and could use some extra detail. The L1 Mikado would also fall into that category however the N&W J looks great.    J