TMCC Computer Software with a DZ-2001A?

Doug,

I assume you are using DZ-2500 switch machines on your switches.  Have you connected the data wire off the DZ-2001A to the data wire of the DZ-2500 (blue).  This connection will allow the CAB1 to control the DZ-2500s.

Doesn't the LCS require designating the switch location and addresses? Is that it?

CAPPiolt,

Thanks for your reply.

The DZ-2500's work as intended with the DZ-2001A. The question I have is why don't they work with the computer program.

The DZ-2001A has a DB9 port which functions as a pass-through to the Command base. The computer connection to the DZ-2001A will pass through commands to the command base as if they came from a CAB1. But for some reason the switches don't respond.

cjack,

I'm not using LCS.

I have an old (late 90s) TMCC system.

What computer program? I'm thinking that if you edit the title with the name of it, maybe someone with experience with it will weigh in. It seems that the answer is there. I take it the pass thru is both send and receive...and you are able to run engines with the computer?

I highlighted the name of the software in bold in the original post. It is sold on the bay.

Yes, send and receive, I can run engines with the computer. If you do a search on the bay using the name I highlighted you will find it. Also there is FAQ section as well.

Oh I see now. It's such a generic name, I thought it a description. So I found it and the user's manual. So you added all your switches with the "Add Device" option in the software. I'm thinking that with the DZ-2500s, you program all the switches Z-stuff wise, but the TMCC software knows nothing about that and you have to program all the switches using "Add Device" in the TMCC software.

Is that something you still have to do?

Yes, I did that. When I click on a switch the LED on the command base will flash but the signal does not get to the DZ-2001A. If I use the CAB1 the command base LED will flash and the DZ-2001A LED also will flash and the switch is thrown.

So...I wonder if a note to the developer would be warranted here. It seems like the software will talk to an SC-1 but not a Z-Stuff address. I am way out of my element here, just wondering...as you are...why a Cab1 can send a command and how could it be different if TMCC Software sent it. Maybe the developer can answer this.

I exchanged a few emails with the developer. He stated that his software only supports the SC-1. He added that he is not familiar with anything else.

I also exchanged emails with Z-Stuff and they stated that they are not familiar with the eTMCC software.

So I'm stuck in the middle.

I wonder how/if the LCS works with DZ-2500. Maybe a new topic.

okay I might be way out here but. is the white wire from dz 2001A also connected to a buss wire so the blue wire from each dz 2500 is attached to it?

or and this is purely a guess on my part.

do you need to not attach computer to the dz2001A but instead use the computer wiring to command base and thus the command is sent from computer to the tmcc base and then into the dz 2001A and out to the corresponding dz 2500 switch machine.

also are the dz 2500 set with a switch # 1 2 3 and so on and is the computer software setup to select a switch number to talk to?

like cjack way out of my electronic knowledge but am just asking questions so you might see a light come on inside you saying gotcha!!

Yes the white wire buss is connected to the switches. Everything works as intended if I use my CAB1. The computer can control engines, but the switches do not work from the computer.

Attaching the computer to the DZ-2001A is the same as attaching it to the command base directly. The DZ-2001A ports are common to each other.

Computer software is setup for the switches.

Doug C..... here is your answer right from the users manual I found online. for your tmcc software program so unless dz 2500 are connected to the SC-1 apparently it will not function from computer using the dz 2001A.

I personally just to see would disable white wire from computer to the data driver just to see if it worked. am sure it wont but sometimes one does get lucky.

and so far all you lost is time and the effort your call.

** Operate your accessories and switches [ SC-1 Switch Controller required). **

hope the above helps you understand why it doesn't work.

that screen shot makes me think of the Train America  computer program.

not a bad price for software either. so what are computer requirements out of curiosity.

an after thought I wonder if one had the SC-1 if you ran the control wire to change switch from straight to diverging to that white wire of the dz-2001A if then it would work as it seems that the software is setup for the SC-1 only to make that function work?

what do you think?

I don't see why the software won't work as the switch commands are the same no matter how they get sent. I don't have that software yet (have been pondering getting it). My thought is the DZ2001 has an input and an output and if the computer is on the output of the data driver it can't get the commands properly. The data wire driver can get information BACK from the switch machines that can be used by a computer program but the commands can't be sent backwards. I think you're right that the computer has to be connected to the command base and the base to the data driver.

Ron

Well, the Z data driver board is a complete pass thru for the computer to the TMCC Base. And the computer controls the engines but NOT the switches.

The Z data driver has an LED-photo transistor where the diode is sampling the transmitted data and triggering a photo transistor which drives the data line. One can only assume that the transmitted data from the Base which switches the DZ-2500 switches is the same whether you use the CAB1 or the Computer. There is a difference since the Base is receiving the computer command at roughly just before the transmitted data is maybe being output to the Z data driver, whereas in the CAB1 case, there is no received data being input to the base at that instant before transmitting. I wonder how the system responds to a switching route with a delay set to say 1 second.

Wild guess here, but hey, maybe someone will pick up on something.

Some thoughts here in no particular order.  I'm not familiar with the z stuff switches or the particular program, so keep that in mind if something is already covered. 

1, are the switch machines true rs-232 tolerant?  the port on the computer will send highs at up to 15 volts and lows at up to negative 15 volts as per rs232 spec.  the tmcc base however sends 0 volts and 5 volts logic level signals.  modern serial ports on computers can read these levels just fine, but I'm wondering if the switch machines know what to do with a +/- 15 volt signal.  ( be ware that if the machine was designed specifically to work with tmcc signal, a voltage higher than 5 volts may damage it. ) 

2, have you tried operating the switch machines without the tmcc base connected, and reversing the rx/tx wires?  remember transmit on the base is receive on the computer.  

3.  you may need a pull up or pull down resistor on the data line, or a signal booster, if the port on your computer is fairly low end.  it may not have enough power to drive the electronics in the switch machine. 

From a software perspective, there should not be any difference between an SC-1 and an SC-2. If SC-2s are not working reliably, it is usually a an RF signal issue; an earth ground wire in the vicinity of the SC-2 will solve that.

To connect a computer/microcontroller and a DZ-2001 to a Legacy base, I use the Legacy Y-cable. One end  goes to the computer/microcontroller; the other (normally used to send commands to a TMCC Command Base) connects tot he DZ-2001.

Harvey this thread has intrigued me so I bought your Legacy software and the LCS SER2 and cable. I have the Z-stuff data wire driver and 15 switches operating at present without your software or the LCS stuff. So in the next few weeks I'll be able to try this out. I hope it works as I'll hate to change switch machines this late in the game.

Ron 

I had a lot of issues with the sc2 until I connected the U terminal (outside rail connection) to the sc2 com and ran a "earth ground" wire over them. 

Thank you for your purchase.  I really appreciate it.  I hope it works too.

Have you tried an earth ground wire? My SC-2 was very flaky, but then I connected a wire to pin 5 of the command base serial port and looped it once around the SC-2.  It became nearly 100% reliable.

On the software side (if you're not already doing it) you could repeat the command a few times.  The command base needs repeats to be separated by 30 milliseconds or more.

Harvy, what did Lionel recommend?

Yes, I am aware of sending the command multiple times.  Lionel told me to send any command that I am sending to an SC-2 three times separated by 100ms.

Would this Y-cable work with a TMCC base (not Legacy)? And can you still use the CAB1/CAB2 with this arrangement?

It seems that the software upgrade may have resolved the SC-2 issue.

Although I don't use SC-2s, I installed the software upgrade today to see if there would be any change with the DZ-2001A issue. There was not.

I may try the Y-cable, but I'm concerned about connecting an RS232 signal directly to the DZ-2001.

Can you talk to the manufacturer of the DZ-2001A and ask them about connecting a RS-232 signal to it and if the voltage difference would harm it?

I was just reading the below document.

http://z-stuff.net/instruction...Driver%206-14-06.pdf

According to what I read it sounds like the DZ-2001A is only designed to receive data from the TMCC Base and send it out the three wires and its other serial port.  It is not designed to accept input from it's other serial port (the one not attached to the TMCC Base) and send the data out the three wires, which is what you are trying to do with my software.  The other serial port is to connect other Lionel controllers like the ASC, BPC, TPC, etc...  I don't think you will ever get my software to work using this configuration.  

I suggest to merge the serial port output of the TMCC Base with the serial output of your computer into the serial port of the DZ-2001A that would normally be connected directly to the TMCC Base.  This way the TMCC Base and your computer are both inputs to the DZ-2001A.  The other serial port on the DZ-2001A is not an input and that is why my software is not working for you.

I have an email in to Dennis. I hope to hear from him.

I'll post here the results...

As I said in my previous post the DZ-2001 OUTPUT cannot receive commands it can only send commands to the switch machines. It can however RECEIVE data from the switch machines on position and pass that through to a computer. My parts will be here in a few days to do some testing. I believe you have to connect the computer output to the Legacy Y cable which connects to the command base and the DZ-2001 to the other leg of the Y.

Ron

Thanks Ron,

Yes, I agree. However there are some things to consider. For example, I don't know the pinouts of the legacy Y-cable. A custom cable may need to be made because the pin 3 output from the computer needs to be connected to pin 2 of the DZ-2001 for this to work.

Additionally, the computer output is RS232 which is a voltage interface that swings + and - from 0 volts. The Command base output is from 0v to +5v.The DZ may be designed only for this.  A diode may be needed to keep the minus voltage from the DZ.

I plan to do some testing of this...

Here's the cable. It sends the other RS232 outputs from the Legacy Base, pins 1 and 4, (and pin 5) to the Command Base pinout.

It does not provide the Null Modem feature needed to interchange 2 and 3.

Here is a picture of the Z data driver. I don't see any way that it can receive data as a data driver. It may be that polling the data line can send switch info back on the line, but there is no connection on the 2001 for utilizing that.

Thanks cjack,

Something like this is needed.

P1 would be the command base.

P2 would be in from the computer.

P3 would be the DZ.

In order to send computer info from pin 3 of the computer output to the data line, there would ideally have to be another isolated diode-photo transistor device (opto coupler) receiving data from pin 3 of the computer output and probably more buffered than the 2001 provides. Maybe a booster amp connected to pin 3 and another 2001 in parallel with the one from pin 2 of the Command Base.

That way the pin 3 data from the computer (a true RS232 output, likely -8 to +8 volts) would not be loaded down by the 2001.

As to hurting the opto coupler in the 2001, the spec sheet says reverse voltage can be up to 6 volts reverse on the diode. The computer output would sit at maybe -8 volts when it is idle. As you probably know the output of the Command Base was 0 to 5 volts, so the pin 2 output from it never goes negative.  If you put a signal diode in series with the pin 3 connection to the pin 2 connection on the 2001, then you would be safer.

On the other hand, the Legacy Base output is also a true RS232 and it's output doesn't hurt the 2001 by everyone's experience, so maybe the diode is not needed.