TMCC Computer Software with a DZ-2001A?

Some have said that the DZ works with RS232 signals like from the Legacy base. So I think I'll get the parts and build the cable to see if it works.

Z Stuff did offer a mod if the power drain for the 2001 was too great for the Legacy Base. Perhaps when running a TPC in addition.

Here it is if you need it...

Yes, Dennis did a free upgrade of my old DZ-2001 to a DZ-2001A.

I just heard back from Dennis, he says the DZ will work with RS232. So I will start to get parts together.

I believe that the Command Base echoes commands on its serial output, whether they are from the CAB or from the serial input.

So you can send a command from a computer/microcontroller into the serial input, and the Base will echo that command to the DZ-2001 connected to the Base output. So at least with Legacy, no need to make a special cable if you use the Legacy Y-cable.

Never thought about the RS232 true voltage issue, but the Legacy base hasn't fried my DZ-2001 yet!   I did remove the DZ-2001 LED to reduce the load on the base.

if the legacy base is anything like the TMCC base you won't have any voltage issues as it uses a "shorthand" rs232  with 0 and 5 volts.  you only have to worry when connecting to a computer, and even there, it is hit or miss if the port uses a true -15/+15 RS232 signal.  It sounds like a previous poster said the switch machines in question will handle the voltage, so probably not a problem, but for anyone building something to connect to a serial port, a simple voltage divider using 2 resistors works just fine.  having a box of 7404's laying around, i also like to use two inverters to boost the signal and get a nice clean 5v high.  

I tried this and it works.(Original TMCC only) I wired it as illustrated, but I did not connect unused pins 1, 4, 6-9.

For hardware I used a dual DB-9 shell with a single db-9 attached. The duel shell provided room to encapsulate  the diodes.

Pic below:

This makes a nice compact "adapter". No need to make cables.

I ran out of F DB-9s, so I plugged into the female DB-9 on the DZ since both DBs are common to each other.

I chose a different approach. I had Dale's Manco booster. I connected it to the base, connected the SER2 to the communications port and the DZ-2001 to the Accessories port. This works perfectly as well and gives the data a boost for the DZ driver. I'm running the Etrain Legacy software and have set up routes to test as well as switches. All worked well. I think a straight y adapter would work as well but I had the Manco booster so I used it. Now to try it on my tablet.

Ron

To add to the above post I updated my Legacy base to ver 1.52 from 1.51 and now the switches don't work at all from either the Legacy remote or the computer. Not sure what is going on and it was getting late so it will have to wait. I'll take the base back to 1.51 to see if it's the base or my hook up.

Ron

I think you need 1.53

Ken M

Maybe I need the 1.53 update not the base.

Ron

Anyone know why my "eTrain Command Console/eTrain Command Console (L)/eTrain Command Mobile Software Discussion Forum" thread has been locked?

In this context, 1.52 is required but 1.53 in not.

This may or may not be relevant, but If there is an LCS device in the system, you should not be connecting any serial device, such as the Z-Stuff Data Driver in between the LCS module and the Lionel command base.

I was wondering the same thing. It was starting to look like a good resource.

Thank you.  I thought so too.  I emailed Alan (System Administrator) last night, but have not heard anything yet.

Railsounds, I agree with that. I had the Manco booster hooked up to the base and the SER2 hooked on one of the outputs and the DZ2001 data driver hooked on the other one. If you're not familiar with the booster it was designed and manufactured by Dale Manquen (forum member) to help the Legacy base deal with multiple items hooked to it as well as the data wire driver. I hooked everything up and it worked perfectly with the remote software vers #1.52 and the base vers #1.51. I then updated the base to 1.52 and the switches stopped working from the remote and from the computer. The data wire driver signal light flashes as before but nothing happens. I am wondering if the software update changed the output of the base port and the DZ2001 is now overdriven. I haven't had time to drop the base back to 1.51 to see if the problem goes away. If the base output voltage was changed then it might be possible to just use a serial y-cable instead of the booster.

Thanks for your help,

Ron

This picture shows what the serial booster looks like.

Ron

Ron,

Since the DZ LED flashes, I'm thinking that the DATA may have changed somehow. As if you were trying to operate a non-existent switch.

Can't be that Doug. If I take everything off the base output and just hook up the Legacy y cable and the DZ2001 with nothing else the switches will work from the remote. Put it back together and it stops. If I had the stuff here I'd build your cable adapter but I already had the booster.

Ron

If you revert to 1.51 on the command base, the LCS SER2 and any other LCS connected device will stop working. 

Thanks for the photo of the Manco booster. If you could post a hand-drawn block diagram of all the pieces, including the command base, all serial devices and all serial cabling it would help me give better advice.

I suspect you may be asked to become a forum sponsor.

I hope so.  I asked for that at first, but they said to create a new thread and we'll see what happens.

That's really interesting as everything worked perfectly with the base having 1.51 in it and the remote 1.52. It wasn't until I did the upgrade that the problem surfaced. I ran the trains for about an hour both Legacy and TMCC and all commands worked from the computer or the remote. I even set up 2 switch routes (setup with the Etrain) that also worked from the ETrain computer software.

Ron

That's interesting. I don't doubt your observation, it must be that the subset of commands you are sending into the command base work with the 1.51 command base code. However, I can assure you that there are LCS functions that require v1.52 be installed in the command base.

I do not fully understand your configuration--if you can post a diagram, I hope to offer more helpful commentary.

best,

Rudy

Lionel, LLC.

Railsounds here is the diagram you requested.

I have no LCS specific devices yet so that's probably why the SER2 appears to work. All it's doing is passing TMCC and Legacy commands from the laptop to the base. Railsounds thanks a bunch for your help!!

Ron

Thanks for the diagram, let me do a little research.

To update my testing I went back and installed 1.51 on the base and everything worked except it became apparent to me that the SER2 was just passing the signal straight through as both the red and green lights flashed when a command was sent from the computer. At that time I updated the base and remote to 1.53 and the SER2 began to work correctly but the switches ceased to function from the software and also from the remote with the configuration in the above post. I'm waiting for a cable to try another approach. The ETrain software works fine as far as passing the commands to the base and running a Legacy Steamer. The one thing I did notice is the software does not keep itself or the remotes in sync. If you set a railroad speed from the computer it performs correctly but the remotes don't show the speed. If you use the remote at this time the engine will slow quickly and then respond to the remote as the speed showing on the remote climbs back up. The same thing happens if you set the speed at the remote and the engines climbs to that speed the software still shows 0 speed. Not a big deal as long as you don't try to control a train both ways. I believe with the proper cable I can get the switches back up and running. I am wondering if another SER2 would take care of this as the Switches will respond if I connect the DZ2001 to the output of the SER2. I also tried the software on my tablet and it performed just like on the laptop which is what I expected. My next step is to remote desktop the tablet to the laptop and then be able to control the trains wirelessly.

Ron 

If the switches work with 1.53 when the DZ is connected to the SER2, but not to the ACC port of the Manco Booster...first thought that seems like hardware but the Manco ACC port is buffered as is the SER2 and should power the DZ data driver the same. There is an unknown though, maybe since we don't have much of an idea as to how the data is handled by the LCS to the SER2 port and that is timing. The Manco will reproduce the data strings identically (tiny delay for the whole word) but how does the SER2 reproduce them differently? And why would the DZ work without any thing else on the base but not with the Manco buffered pass thru when the LCS is connected...

"Can't be that Doug. If I take everything off the base output and just hook up the Legacy y cable and the DZ2001 with nothing else the switches will work from the remote. Put it back together and it stops. If I had the stuff here I'd build your cable adapter but I already had the booster.

Ron"

I wonder if would be able to see some specifications from Lionel on just how these modules handle the data...something just this side of a complete schematic. I am constantly reminded of the lack of technical information from the model train industry as compared to amateur radio. Different consumer backgrounds true, but more than that. The manuals are full of mystery instructions that may or may not apply to the particular layout's electronics.

Boy, You can say that again!!!

Ron, regarding your diagram. The LCS DB9 cable should be directly connected to the command base. While I commend you on your troubleshooting skills, the way the LCS system is engineered requires it to have a direct connection to the command base, without any intermediate devices. All other devices requiring a serial connection should be connected to one or more SER2 modules. Each SER2 provides a "virtual" connection to the command base, that should be functionality the same as a direct connection to the base.

Have you tried putting the SER2 first in line (LCS DB9 cable directly connected to the command base) and using the screw terminals of the SER2 to directly connect the DZ without using the booster? 

Thanks again Railsounds for your response!! Here is what I did to fix the problem. I ordered and received a serial Y cable (1DB9M to 2DB9Fs) today and hooked the cable to the output of the SER2 serial connection. One leg to the tablet and the other to the DZ2001 data wire driver. All works as it's supposed to now. Switches will throw from the software of from the remote and all commands work in the software and on the remote. No need for anything else. Anybody want to buy a Manco booster? LOL

Thanks for your help,

Ron

While I don't doubt the veracity of what you understand as to the LCS port requirements, again we have a mystery instruction as to the connection of the LCS DB9 connection to the base. As you can see from the wiring diagram, a pass thru serial connection should be all that is necessary for the LCS. An additional parallel connection without significant loading should be ok.

I think the Manco Booster is an insignificant load on the pass thru from the input DB9 to the Communications port and maintains the +/- 8v signal range required by RS232 serial communications. Why would the LCS connection to the communications port work?

My question now is did the DZ driver work connected directly to the Legacy base (no other devices connected) when the firmware was 1.53 loaded into the base and CAB2? And if it did, when the Manco Booster was connected, and the DZ driver was connected to the communications output of the Booster, did the DZ driver work with 1.53?

If not, then the issue is actually with the version 1.53 and not with the hardware.

If the change in function is with the version 1.53, then how is the data stream chanhe'd such that the formerly working DZ driver now has to be after the SER2?

By the way, if ver 1.53 does and remains to require the LCS2 for serial devices, the Manco Booster should be useful after the SER2 if the limit of the SER2 is reached as to loading.

I hooked the Y adapter to the Legacy base and the SER2 and DZ2001 to the legs and that didn't work. After updating the base and remote to 1.53 the switches do work when they're the only thing connected to the base. Yes you're correct that the Manco booster would possibly help out a different config but when I hooked it to the SER2 and connected the switches to the accessories port and the computer to the communications port the switches didn't work. The data light shows data going out on the driver line but no activity. Anyways the simple y cable does the job without using an extra SER2. Adding extra SER2s to the mix would perform the same thing the Manco booster does.

Thanks Chuck for your input!

Ron

Thanks for the info. Curious why the Booster is not sufficient to drive the DZ connected in series with the LCS. Someone on the forum was able to use the Booster on the output of the LCS to drive TPCs, etc. without any issues. But whatever works. Could be a DZ idiosyncrasy...or not.