To Upgrade or not to Upgrade?

I am also in the camp of if it ain’t broke don’t fix it but for me its more a matter do I want to be able to run it with other engines on the same track. I have upgraded quite a few myself but only dead MTH engines. My lone working PS1 remains original. The kits are designed to upgrade MTH engines so not a lot of modifications are required to install them and the instructions are pretty clear. You might want to try one yourself when the kits become available again.

Pete

Like you, I'm also following Yogi's advice.  I only upgrade when there is a failure. Of the ones that I have done (about 4), 2 received 3 volt ps2 boards and the rest ps3 boards depending on when the failure occurred.  One of the subway upgrades was a nightmare, requiring multiple returns back to a less than competent technician. Currently, I have 2 subways and 2 engines with the dreaded 5 volt PS2 boards that I've considered upgrading (with a more thoroughly vetted technician), but they keep running flawlessly.   I'm hoping that I'll be installing some futuristic ps5 or so boards when these fail, with features like smellevision or sonar crash protection. Until then, I'm going to keep enjoying them as is.   

I am in the same boat (or is that on the same train?) as everyone else.  I have several Protosounds locomotives and have no real plans to upgrade them unless I have a failure.  Even then, I am considering just putting simple reversing boards in them and eliminating the features for just some good running locomotives.

Who knows though?  I change my mind all the time in this hobby! 

Wish I could contribute, Arnold, but all of my locomotives are Lionel.

When the Premier PS/1 steam was cheap before the recent big price run-up, I used to buy them for upgrades, it was a nice little cottage industry.  They're too expensive now to make it worthwhile.

I'm not a conventional runner, so anything that's going to get run has to be command equipped.  It can be DCS or TMCC/Legacy, but it has to be command.

I keep one of my loops capable of conventional control. (Via the DCS TIU Variable channels). That allows me to run some of my older engines that are PS1 or older. I got started late into the hobby so most of my stuff is PS2 and newer or Legacy. Just hate to rip open those older engines and tear into them.

I can run conventional on my mainline, it's just that I rarely choose to.  I keep that capability for testing stuff.

Arnold, I upgraded one diesel from PS to PS3 myself 3 or 4 years ago.  For me, a career electronics technician, it was easy.  I know you would need to pay a technician.  At that time the kit was almost $200.  I thought MTH would never reissue a Western Maryland BL2 in PS3, so it did it.  The very next catalog after I upgraded had my engine in PS3 for a great price.  Bummer!

Now I do not believe it is worth doing for reasons others already stated.  I have two PS engines and I’ll run them conventional.

Very interesting contributions, so far.

Another reason not to upgrade is that the money it would cost to upgrade to PS3 could be applied to purchasing a brand new PS3.

Those who can do the upgrade themselves, unlike me, only need to pay for the material (the parts), not the labor, for the upgrade so it should be financially more attractive for them to do it.

Like everything costs have skyrocketed but in many cases its still cheaper to upgrade even if you have pay someone to do it. You can still find J1e PS1 Hudsons at under 400 bucks. New ones are 12-1300 bucks. Its not going to cost anywhere near 800 bucks to upgrade. If you are quoted more than that then find someone else.

Pete

One more thing:

During the past month, I've improved my roadbed and track on my layout. More of the track has cork roadbed beneath it, and I've replaced some old tubular track sections and pins with some rust with brand new Menards tubular track sections and pins. Also, I've cleaned all of my tubular track with denatured alcohol.

Doing the above has eliminated slight voltage drops which, in turn, has improved the performance of my locomotives, especially PS1s. As a result, my need to upgrade them is less that it used to be.

I have several PS engines that I have considered upgrading. Until boards are readily available again they will stay conventional runners. All of mine were bought second hand so I don't have a lot into them so far.

ERR is an option but everything has to be changed.

Bob

@Norton posted:

Like everything costs have skyrocketed but in many cases its still cheaper to upgrade even if you have pay someone to do it. You can still find J1e PS1 Hudsons at under 400 bucks. New ones are 12-1300 bucks. Its not going to cost anywhere near 800 bucks to upgrade. If you are quoted more than that then find someone else.

Pete

Great point, Pete.

Some of my PS1s have performed perfectly for over 20 years. They include the Dreyfus Hudson in my video in the original post and a Jersey Central Trainmaster. The smoke and sounds have been great and they are very good pullers, to boot.

However, PS2s and PS3s are generally better and more fun to run on DCS than a PS1 which only runs conventional. PS2s and PS3s can run at a snails pace, the electrocoupler activation is much better (only need to press 1 button) and there are far more features using DCS.

Pete has got me thinking. That PS1 Dreyfus Hudson only cost about $300 when I bought it 25 years ago. To buy it brand new as a PS3 could easily costs $800+. To upgrade it is about $325 to $350 to pay a good technician to do it.

I tend to be a cheapskate so I probably won't upgrade it. And, that makes me feel good because that decision would save me $325 to $350. LOL, Arnold

@RSJB18 posted:

I have several PS engines that I have considered upgrading. Until boards are readily available again they will stay conventional runners. All of mine were bought second hand so I don't have a lot into them so far.

ERR is an option but everything has to be changed.

Bob

Yes, I bought my PS engines used as well.  I have considered ERR, but have other places to spend my money.

I agree, if the cost of the PS engine, plus the cost of upgrading is far less than a new one, then go for it.  But I would only do it on a favorite engine; not a run of the mill engine.  I hardly run the BL2 I mentioned earlier

I bought 2 PS3 steam upgrades just prior to the retiring announcement by Mike MTH.  One was destined for a PS1 Shay. Another for a now sold Rail King Challenger. I may put it into an old Brass Weaver PS1 Hiawatha if it dies. To me the cab chatter is annoying and I often turn the engine sounds way down. So aside from the speed control and the ability to do lash-ups I really don't use PS2 or PS3 engines to their capabilities. The new Premier Big Boy is certainly an exception with all its "bells and whistles". 

The other consideration is the older engines, even premier, are not as detailed as the new versions. It is a hard sell to me to pony up for a 20 years old engine and the upgrade cost considering the differential cost of better detailed PS3 versions. If it was already mine and dead - I would probably skip the upgrade and put in enough to run, turn it into a shelf queen or sell it as "dead electronics."

Its true the the new PS3 Premier Steam engines have better detail than their PS1 equivalents but all that detail can be added for small money. Cab curtains, decks, air lines, bell cords. One thing that big PS1 engines have is a big Pittman motor. PS3s are getting Chinese knockoffs with less than half the torque.

You pays your monies and you take your chances.

Pete

I was bitten by the command control bug during one of my visits to Marty Fitzhenry's home. Marty did my first command upgrade, which was on my MTH Premier PS1 Blue Comet, and I was hooked. Here's a short clip of my Blue Comet running on Marty's Layout.

DCS upgrades are still a great way to go. | O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum (ogaugerr.com)

Since the conversion of my Blue Comet in early 2018, I have had 6 other locos converted to command control, thanks to Gunrunnerjohn:

Williams Crown Edition:

SP Daylight GS4, NYC Niagara, PRR K4s all converted to DCS/PS3, and a B&M Pacific converted to TMCC

MTH Premier:

NYC J1E Hudson converted to DCS/PS3

Lionel:

Canadian National Mogul converted to TMCC

All of these engines were conventional-only, in good working order, but I have enjoyed running them a lot more now that they have been converted to command control along with the addition of fan-driven smoke units.

John

I have a short list of Williams engines I would like to upgrade with PS3. I realize it makes little sense from a financial perspective but, the engines on my list are favorites and with MTH’s new BTO business model, I’m no longer confident similar models/road names will be produced.

Unfortunately, the upgrade kit is not available and hasn’t been for sometime. I’ve been on a wait list for a PS3 kit since June and the MTH certified repair tech I use up in Chattanooga told me recently he’s been on the wait list since December 2021.

Curt

Easy choice for me. I convert to TMCC using ERR components.

@BlueComet400 posted:

I was bitten by the command control bug during one of my visits to Marty Fitzhenry's home. Marty did my first command upgrade, which was on my MTH Premier PS1 Blue Comet, and I was hooked. Here's a short clip of my Blue Comet running on Marty's Layout.

DCS upgrades are still a great way to go. | O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum (ogaugerr.com)

Since the conversion of my Blue Comet in early 2018, I have had 6 other locos converted to command control, thanks to Gunrunnerjohn:

Williams Crown Edition:

SP Daylight GS4, NYC Niagara, PRR K4s all converted to DCS/PS3, and a B&M Pacific converted to TMCC

MTH Premier:

NYC J1E Hudson converted to DCS/PS3

Lionel:

Canadian National Mogul converted to TMCC

All of these engines were conventional-only, in good working order, but I have enjoyed running them a lot more now that they have been converted to command control along with the addition of fan-driven smoke units.

John

John, your converted Blue Comet, which was upgraded by a master, Marty Fitzhenry, is gorgeous.

Thanks for mention the more powerful Pitman motor in the Premier PS1s. I didn't know that. Arnold

Arnold,

I upgraded 3 engines (K-Line F7, MTH pre-PS1 GG-1, and an MTH PS1 AEM-7) myself using the ERR CC cruise module with valuable advice from @gunrunnerjohn along the way. The MTH PS3 upgrade kit is far more complex than the ERR CC. To upgrade my MTH Genesis PS1 to PS3, I used the MTH PS3 kit. Because of its enormous complexity compared to ERR, I left the entire task to George @GGG  who did a fabulous job.

As others have mentioned, the MTH PS3 kit is not available so the ERR is the only game in town for now.

My actual decision to upgrade some engines and not others was driven by cost, availability of upgrade kits, and the potential loss of some audio features when upgrading from a PS1 using the ERR CC.

Arnold, …as I recall your layout, you have the capability to run command or conventional at your leisure, ….no??…..I keep all the options on the table at all times,…command, conventional, and even a 59 cent bridge rectifier as a go-between ….I can switch from conventional, to command at the flip of a switch, so upgrading is, as I see fit, when I see fit,….I’ll even look at DCC when it becomes a viable 3 rail option…..there’s no “dead engines” out in the train room,….only in the shops, and that’s only because they’re so torn apart you can’t recognize them!…so I say run them till they quit, if upgrading ain’t in the cards at the present moment, and the locomotive is DC motor equipped, again, a cheap rectifier will at least get you running forward till either a kit is available, or you decide what route to go,…..so in our little world, anything can run at any given moment,……😁

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Arnold, …as I recall your layout, you have the capability to run command or conventional at your leisure, ….no??…..I keep all the options on the table at all times,…command, conventional, and even a 59 cent bridge rectifier as a go-between ….I can switch from conventional, to command at the flip of a switch, so upgrading is, as I see fit, when I see fit,….I’ll even look at DCC when it becomes a viable 3 rail option…..there’s no “dead engines” out in the train room,….only in the shops, and that’s only because they’re so torn apart you can’t recognize them!…so I say run them till they quit, if upgrading ain’t in the cards at the present moment, and the locomotive is DC motor equipped, again, a cheap rectifier will at least get you running forward till either a kit is available, or you decide what route to go,…..so in our little world, anything can run at any given moment,……😁

Pat

Pat, you are correct that on my layout, I can run DCS from my DCS remote, and conventional from my Z4000 transformers. I can also run Legacy from my LionChief Universal Remote. I'm content with the basic command functions. Arnold

One of my main  and ongoing interests is to upgrade engines to various new command control systems. Wireless is very appealing because it is compatible with battery power. With my latest new OGauge upgrades, I became involved with DCC and learned that it is a unique and extremely capable control method for model railroad engines and layouts. I still have several engines that are conventional control.

Only if you want to or need to .  Highly personal decision based upon your choices of systems, needs and preferences.  I converted a few conventional locos to TMCC in the early years when the choices were only conventional or TMCC, but haven't done anything similar in decades.  My only purchases have been command equipped locos since about 1998 or so (TMCC, Legacy, LionChief, PS3, etc.).  Simplicity and reliability have been my rationale.  So if I had as PS1 or dead PS2, TMCC, Legacy loco, conversion to ERR would probably be my choice. It would be great if one could install LionChief in some, as that would likely be simple and cheap.  Not everyone's cup of tea, but it would be mine, in theory.

When you take into account the enormous landscape of available engine control systems, for EE's like me it becomes an interesting project to try them out and compare them. Hardly any time goes by before another new system is announced which keeps me busy.

@juniata guy posted:

I have a short list of Williams engines I would like to upgrade with PS3. I realize it makes little sense from a financial perspective but, the engines on my list are favorites and with MTH’s new BTO business model, I’m no longer confident similar models/road names will be produced.

Unfortunately, the upgrade kit is not available and hasn’t been for sometime. I’ve been on a wait list for a PS3 kit since June and the MTH certified repair tech I use up in Chattanooga told me recently he’s been on the wait list since December 2021.

Curt

That is why I chose to upgrade the Williams locos: they are favorites of mine. The Niagara and SP Daylight are always a big hit with visitors, and I really like the shiny finish of the Williams brass locos.

Arnold,

Since you have so many, why not try and upgrade one all by yourself?  You might find it rewarding and fun, while at the same time learning new skills you can use in the hobby.

I started with a PS3 transplant with a PS1.  Then I would either sell the doner engine as a dummy or as a PS1 to recoup some of my investment.  I found this far less expensive than buying the upgrade kit.

With a transplant you can see how its supposed to look and just migrate everything over to the new engine.

BTW, rugged rails MTH diesels are great to upgrade PS1 premier diesels.

If you end up liking it, you will crave to do more.  It is what got me brave enough to try other systems like  @BOB WALKER has.

I love to buy PS1 engines and gut them for RailPro or BlueRail Blunami.

Ron

In the past I've replaced my PS1 engines with PS2 or PS3 counter parts if available and the price is right. Otherwise, I only have two upgraded (MTH) engines in my fleet. One was a new PS3 sw1500 to dummy sw1500 swap and the other was a favorite MPC GP9 engine that I ran the wheels off as a kid. It has a Lionel shell, Williams running gear and MTH electronics. Another childhood favorite MPC engine that is still running great was upgraded with TMCC to allow for modern control.

I think you'll be surprised how much more run time the upgraded engines will get once the process is done!

@Ron045 posted:

Arnold,

Since you have so many, why not try and upgrade one all by yourself?  You might find it rewarding and fun, while at the same time learning new skills you can use in the hobby.

I started with a PS3 transplant with a PS1.  Then I would either sell the doner engine as a dummy or as a PS1 to recoup some of my investment.  I found this far less expensive than buying the upgrade kit.

With a transplant you can see how its supposed to look and just migrate everything over to the new engine.

BTW, rugged rails MTH diesels are great to upgrade PS1 premier diesels.

If you end up liking it, you will crave to do more.  It is what got me brave enough to try other systems like  @BOB WALKER has.

I love to buy PS1 engines and gut them for RailPro or BlueRail Blunami.

Ron

Ron, I like the way you are thinking!  I never thought of pulling the electronics out of a Rugged Rails engine to upgrade something else!!

@Mark Boyce posted:

Ron, I like the way you are thinking!  I never thought of pulling the electronics out of a Rugged Rails engine to upgrade something else!!

I'm a little ashamed to admit this, but some years ago, I purchased a RR PS3 F unit for $125 and sold the engine as a dummy for $75. 

Can't beat a PS3 upgrade for $50.

I also had the MTH PS1 GG1 4935 and purchased a PS2 GG1 American Freedom.  Just swapped shells and sold the revised PS1 American Freedom recouping a large chunk of my investment.

If you are creative you can do this efficiently.

Ron

Always an interesting topic and discussion.

I should add to my OP that I started with all conventional, post war, migrated to MPC and modern conventional. Now I have a CAB-1L for TMCC, and a remote commander for basic control of PS 2/3 engines.

I've also done 2 ERR upgrades with more to come. I find this stuff to be fun......

Bob

@Ron045 posted:

I'm a little ashamed to admit this, but some years ago, I purchased a RR PS3 F unit for $125 and sold the engine as a dummy for $75.

Can't beat a PS3 upgrade for $50.

Actually pretty smart!  I was thinking along the lines of this option also; i.e., buying a cheap PS3, then stripping it for the electronics, and applying it to another, more highly-valued engine.

@Arnold D. Cribari posted:

Pete has got me thinking. That PS1 Dreyfus Hudson only cost about $300 when I bought it 25 years ago. To buy it brand new as a PS3 could easily costs $800+. To upgrade it is about $325 to $350 to pay a good technician to do it.

I tend to be a cheapskate so I probably won't upgrade it. And, that makes me feel good because that decision would save me $325 to $350. LOL, Arnold

Well, actually in today's dollars you paid about $554 for that engine if you bought it 25 years ago (1997). Add $350 for the upgrade and you effectively have a $900.00 engine.

It seems to me the upgrading route, whether Proto 3 (except there aren't any of these kits available at this point so it's moot) or ERR for Lionel, particularly if you have someone else do it, has gotten expensive to the point that you really have to think twice about whether it's worth it. Just my opinion, but you'd really have to like an engine to make it worthwhile to upgrade it as opposed to buying a new engine. And with Lionel, even with the ERR upgrade, it's still not Legacy.

I've priced upgrades on a number of engines, and by the time all the costs are added up, I was within $100 - $150 of a new engine. Frankly, even if it cost more than that, getting a new engine would probably be worth it (not to mention getting some $ from selling the old one). Depends on the engine, of course. The more expensive the engine is to buy new now, the more cost effective it may be to do the upgrade. But it's still a significant cost, and you may not get some of the features (like whistle steam and better sounds) and added detail the newer engines have.

@Mark Boyce posted:

I agree, if the cost of the PS engine, plus the cost of upgrading is far less than a new one, then go for it.  But I would only do it on a favorite engine; not a run of the mill engine.  I hardly run the BL2 I mentioned earlier

I second this approach. I only have one PS1 engine, a used K4 I purchased at one of the Allentown shows last year at a decent price. (I had been waiting for a Legacy version to be rereleased or scale LionChief version to be produced for quite a while and got tired of waiting.)  I may upgrade this one since it has beautiful bones to begin with. Pick a favorite and give it a try--that's probably the best way to see if it's a project worth repeating for you.

Jim

I've done several upgrades since the early 1990's.  Probably one of the best parts of the hobby.  IMO.  Surprisingly, some of the removed parts/electronics, were easily past-on to others, who wished to upgrade from conventional to early, early TMCC.

Some of the original speed control electronics, were much more complex than current ERR, upgrades.  Always amazed at how fast electronics change and become obsolete.