Track Plan Design - Part Two

Looks like a cosy fit, but quite doable!!

Dave,

I made one change that you should incorporate.  I moved the crossover from the upper right to the lower left.  That aids a train to get to/from the outer track quickly after leaving the yard.

Jan

PS. Fixed the joint to close and set the spacing at 4.5" so he could use the Atlas double truss bridge.

Jan,

Makes sense to have both crossovers on either side of the Wye. I also cleaned up all the joints so a simulation can be run. It bumped the number of cut tracks to 8, but if Bob follows my advice to replace all the smaller fitters with larger cut pieces, it shouldn't be too bad. I don't know what he has planned for landscaping, but I went ahead and added the extra whisker tracks. Now it's up to him to let us know what he likes and doesn't like, especially the 3-stall roundhouse.

DoubleDaz,

Well done, love reading this thread

PSU1980 posted:

Well done, love reading this thread

 

Thanks, but it’s not only me. Jan saw things I missed and Bob drew the initial design. It’s been a fun and frustrating challenge that’s still not done.

The roundhouse was not intended to be a place to store locomotives, but a place to perform maintenance out of the weather.  Railroads would store locomotives on outside whisker tracks until needed.  If you look at small terminals and branch lines there will be a two or three stall roundhouse and multiple outdoor whiskers.  Besides locomotives you will find wheels sets and scale cars that could be moved manually or with a small locomotive from the turntable.

Jan

I agree 100% and IMHO on this size layout, more that 3 covered stalls is overkill.

Looks like a plan to me! I think you've got it! 

Bob, as I was looking for model TT setups, I ran across this thread where you were exploring such setups way back in 2016. 😱

rtr12 posted:

Looks like a plan to me! I think you've got it! 

I don’t know. The size and location of the roundhouse still have to be confirmed. Most important though is Bob has to be okay with 3 stalls instead of 5 before I can contact Altoona for confirmation.

DoubleDAZ posted:

I agree 100% and IMHO on this size layout, more that 3 covered stalls is overkill.

I believe a 3 stall RH is a better solution for my space. My TT is ordered but not manufactured yet and I have time to change the size down to 30" or 28". Bob from Altoona Model Works has a drawing on his website for a 3 stall RH with a 28" and 30" TT.

 Here is the link: https://altoonamodelworks.net/...-wall-55-to-back.pdf.

I love the detail of Altoona's RH and you can reach Bob at 814-793-7016.

I am ok if you think the Korber RH will work better for me.

Track planning is very confusing to me and I probably will have a big problem making revisions once I start building. I have never built a layout before, and I know there is a big learning curve.

Thank you all for your help.

Bob,

The TT in the latest design is the 28" Millhouse Model Works version.

Your link to the RH drawing is broken.

Here's the link to the product page. The photos show 3-12 stall versions.
https://altoonamodelworks.net/...up-type-round-house/

Here's the only link I could find to drawings (5-15 stalls).
https://altoonamodelworks.net/...-footprint-drawings/

Here's the link and a photo for the 55" version I've been using. 
https://altoonamodelworks.net/...-wall-55-to-back.pdf

As you can see, it shows 5 stalls (not 3) with measurements for 28" and 30" TTs. The configuration in the latest design uses the numbers for the 28" TT because SCARM does not have a 30" TT. However, the only difference is the 1" length of the whisker track, the RH doesn't move.

Even though I still don't think it's a viable option, I added a photo of what it would look like with the 34" TT. The distance from the center of the TT to the rear wall increases from 55" to 63", meaning the RH would stick out in the aisle another 8". The distance from the top corner to the tabletop would then be only 16" and the bottom corner 18", a tight squeeze. Although the 34" TT would allow you to add the 6" front extension to 1 stall for the long engine, I just don't think you'll want to extend the peninsula that much.

Photo deleted upon request 

Since SCARM doesn't have the 30" TT in the library, I can't show you exactly how things would fit. However, since the Altoona drawing includes both the 28" and 30" TTs and the RH doesn't move, I "think" the only things that change are the lengths of the whisker tracks going to the RH as well as the tracks leading to the coaling tower. Since there are 10" straight tracks in both places, it should just be a matter of substituting 9" tracks (two 4.5" tracks if you want to use sectional tracks).

One last thing. I'm not sure why you like the Altoona model over the Korber model, and it really doesn't matter, but the only advantage to the Korber model for me is that you could add the rear extension to the middle stall to accommodate your longer engine. Personally, I don't think that would be too aesthetically pleasing if that were to stick out on the peninsula, but it wouldn't shrink the aisles. Both models appear to have essentially the same basic footprints, but differ in where to put the extension. The 3" rear extension for the Altoona model is an option, but it still won't accommodate the 30" engine.

Dave, 

You have convinced me to use the Korber RH with the extension in the middle stall. Do they make a 3 stall RH? Thanks.

Bob

Bob, not trying to convince you, just pointing out things I’ve noticed. Here are some links for you to check out. As you can see, they’re part of Mr Muffin’s Trains in Atlanta IN. I have no knowledge of stock, etc., but I have visited the store and bought my SD70ACe diesel there. They also carry a variety of coaling towers/stations you might want to look at. From what I understand they’ll also make you a good deal on Atlas track. Doesn’t cost anything to get some prices. 😀

https://mrmuffinstrains.com/co...dels/products/kb-304

https://mrmuffinstrains.com/co...els/products/kb-304b

Bob, don't make a decision just yet. I tried creating a Korber RH and discovered that the numbers that really matter are the distance from the edge of the TT to the rear wall. I've been trying to create a fairly accurate model of both RHs in SCARM, but that's been futile. The bottom line is the Altoona model is 41" from the edge (55" - 14") whereas the Korber is almost 46". That means the Korber model will be 5" further into the aisle, the same distance as the Altoona model would be with the 34" TT.  Sorry I misled you, but I forgot that the Korber is 4" deeper than the Altoona and the doorways are 1" wider meaning it has to be further from the TT. IMHO, the only combinations that work are the 28" or 30" TTs with the Altoona. If you go with the 30" it means each track from the coaling tower to the TT will need to be 1" shorter. It's getting late, so I'll try to post some photos tomorrow to show exactly what I mean.

Dave,

Excluding the switching of the yard ladder and the TT/RH, how close did you came to reproducing Bob's original concept?  It appears that the lower right portion of the layout could donate a little to maintain the aisle width.

I think that everyone will agree that you did a good job with this challenge.

Jan

Jan, if you look at my first post, the bench work there matches the drawing I was given. I've taken some liberty in the latest rendition to change the bench work in the lower right corner, but I haven't asked Bob if that's going to be okay and I don't thing he's noticed it yet. (moved/expanded) to use less bench work and free up some space for the aisles. I haven't taken the time to measure things like edge clearances, etc. I've been so focused on getting the TT/RH close to accurate in size so I could play with placement, that I haven't played with changing the benchwork as yet.

That said, I believe the upper level tracks and the lower level ovals can be expanded a bit. This would allow the benchwork to shrink some and add to the size of the aisles. I think Bob is mostly concerned with keeping the aisles at least as large as they are now, but I don't know if he has plans for scenery that would preclude shrinking the bench work.

However, I'm not sure that will provide enough space to use the Korber RH or the 34" TT. My next post will offer more insight to the TT/RH situation.

Every time I think I've figured things out, I find something that throws a wrench into it. As I mentioned, the key numbers are the sizes of the 2 roundhouses and the distances they need to be from the center of the turntable to the rear wall. What I didn't realize was that the number of positions on the turntable has an impact too. Turntables come in different sizes, but what I didn't realize until a few minutes ago is that they all come with variable numbers of positions (software connecting points).

I was putting together a rendition to show Bob what I've been rattling on about when I noticed something I hadn't seen before. The attached photo (minus extra whisker tracks) shows how turntables with the same number of positions, in this case 36, can be substituted for each other without having to move the roundhouse or connecting tracks. As you can see in the photo, the only thing that changes is the length of the connecting tracks. The inner turntable is 28". Since SCARM doesn't include a 30" turntable, the middle ring represents 30". The outer turntable is 34".

Now, from what I can tell, Altoona makes 2 different size roundhouses. One needs to be 55" from the center of the turntable while the other needs to be 63". It's hard to tell from the schematics, such as they are, but they show the 55" model 14" from the turntable while the 63" model is only 11". That suggests they are made for turntables with a different number of positions and whisker tracks coming off the turntable at slightly different angles, 10° for the 55 and 7.5° for the 63.

On the other hand, Korber makes only 1 model and it needs to be almost 46" from the edge of the turntable to the rear wall. That means if you use a 28" turntable, the distance from the center is 60", for a 30" it's 61" and for a 34" it's 63".  What I can't see in the schematics is the number of position points being used. It doesn't make sense to me that the same roundhouse can be used with different size turntables and be a constant 16" from the turntable unless the angle of the whisker tracks is changing.

Originally I thought the advantage went to Korber because they add the extension to the back, not the front. However, since the Korber starts off at 60", it's already too far into the aisle and adding an extension to the rear of the center stall just makes it that much longer.

But, I just thought of something when I looked at the Altoona 12-stall schematic below. The 63" Altoona model might just be the 55" model with the front and rear extensions, though the numbers appear to be 1" off. The product lists only the 55" model and a bunch of options, including the extensions. If that's the case, then it would appear the front extension could be added to any or all 3 stalls to accommodate the longer engine. If I'm right, in the schematic the 55" is on the left, then with the rear extension, then with both extensions and finally with just the front extension. In any case, I think I have enough information to contact Altoona and verify my understanding. Then I can work on seeing what I can do to expand the aisles and put together a final configuration for everything.

Dave, I have been following this thread and am absolutely blown away by what you have accomplished for the OP. I may have something to contribute at this point. My layout is highrail S scale but I have a TT and roundhouse. All the S engines are full 1/64 scale. The TT is 22" in S scale, converted to O gauge, multiply by 64/48 it would be 29.3", so 30". It will barely hold Challengers but not a BigBoy. There are also other engines in O scale that are longer than Challengers. I have 4 RH stalls and 4 additional external tracks. There are also three approach tracks. The neat thing is all the approach tracks line up with one of the RH stalls so the BigBoy can be directly driven across the TT and into a RH stall without rotating the turntable. The RH is deep enough to hold the BB with room to spare. Problem of engines longer than the TT solved.

The challenge was this design needed a TT that would index at a non standard fractional rotation angle. As a result we had AAA make the TT since their system will stop the TT at any position in its rotation. If you have any interest in seeing some pictures let me know and I can post some if it would help.

Dave,

I went into RR-Track and created this diagram using the components available.

The two Korber roundhouses have the same width front panels.  The narrower the stall arc the farther the RH front is from the center of the TT.  The TT diameter is immaterial. The TT diameter only affects the total distance needed.  The difference in total length/space needed between a 34" TT/RH and a 28" TT/RH is 3".

Jan

Tom,

I appreciate the compliment, it's been fun and frustrating at the same time. As a former computer programmer, I enjoy challenges and using SCARM requires similar skills. For the most part, the frustration was not having specs for the roundhouse.

Anyway, I never turn down photos and they might be helpful for Bob during the build. I never thought about lining up the lead tracks with the whisker tracks, so it's just a coincidence that they do. Since his longest engine is 30", it would definitely fit on a 30" turntable and I suspect the wheelbase will fit a 28", but I could be wrong depending on which engine it is. Thanks for joining in.

Dave, here a four pictures that might help visualize the end result. The first two are taken during construction and delivery so the underlying structure of the TT RH and tracks can be seen. The third is an overhead view of the finished TT area. The fourth is a view from the mainline turnoff into the RH. The track off the TT to the right leads into the yard so engines can access or exit the freight yard without using a mainline track.

Here is a picture of the actual RH if it helps. It is S scale but the angles of the stalls might work in O.

AmFlyer posted:

Dave, I have been following this thread and am absolutely blown away by what you have accomplished for the OP. I may have something to contribute at this point. My layout is highrail S scale but I have a TT and roundhouse. All the S engines are full 1/64 scale. The TT is 22" in S scale, converted to O gauge, multiply by 64/48 it would be 29.3", so 30". It will barely hold Challengers but not a BigBoy. There are also other engines in O scale that are longer than Challengers. I have 4 RH stalls and 4 additional external tracks. There are also three approach tracks. The neat thing is all the approach tracks line up with one of the RH stalls so the BigBoy can be directly driven across the TT and into a RH stall without rotating the turntable. The RH is deep enough to hold the BB with room to spare. Problem of engines longer than the TT solved.

The challenge was this design needed a TT that would index at a non standard fractional rotation angle. As a result we had AAA make the TT since their system will stop the TT at any position in its rotation. If you have any interest in seeing some pictures let me know and I can post some if it would help.

Dave,

I think you know this but I will remind you again...my TT will index.

Bob

The engine area would sure look nice with a coaling tower over all three tracks. The structure will have to be positioned so no engine overhang will hit it. That will be a challenge with just 6" of straight track alignment.

I agree Tom, just don’t think there’s enough room, but I’ve noticed some errors in my roundhouse, so I’m busy trying to figure things out and I don’t know if that will make a big difference. It stinks having to work with turntable ps with preset connection points and try to match roundhouses.

Dave, that was a key reason we changed TT suppliers after the first pass at the track plan. If you look close on two of the pictures a short white stripe is visible under the center of the tracks at the edge of the TT pit. The bridge stops wherever it detects a white stripe, any increment, any spacing. This way the TT only need enter the CAD system as a 22" diameter hole. Coincidentally my track plan is the same outer dimensions as the main part of this layout. My layout is 17'x21' but the track outer dimensions are 15'x20'. Minimum radius is 30", minimum turnouts are #5 yard, #6 mainlines.

Excellent update 

Jan/Bob/Carl/Anyone, something's been bothering me and I think I know what, I don't think I created the Altoona model correctly. I think I mistakenly used the Korber dimension for the back wall and that means the stalls are wider than they should be. Here's what I'm working with, so please tell me where I'm going wrong.

First up is Altoona.
They sell a 3-stall base kit, but don't provide all the specs for it, so I had to extrapolate them using the specs for the 5-stall examples on their site. The example for the 55" version says the front wall for each stall is 14" from a 30" turntable and 15" from a 28" turntable. It doesn't show how wide the front wall is, but it does say the rear wall is 39". So, I had to further assume that the rear wall for each stall is 7.8" (39/5) and 3 would be 23.4" (7.8*3). It also says the length of the side walls is 26".

To create a single stall, I started with a 28" turntable with 36 positions. I placed a 55" line from the center of the turntable to the right.. I added a perpendicular 7.8" wall to the end of that line and centered it on the line. I drew 2 more straight lines from the center of the turntable to the top and bottom of the wall. I placed another shorter wall 15" from the center of the turntable to complete the stall. This resulted in a polygon with a 4" front wall, 26" side walls and a 7.8" rear wall. I duplicated the stall to make a 3-stall version and the basic dimensions become something like 12"F x 23"B x 26"L.

When I positioned it over the original turntable and whisker tracks, I noticed the whisker tracks no longer were centered in the stalls because the new stalls were narrower. I expected this. Initially I replaced the 36 position turntable with the 48 position turntable and noticed the whisker tracks were closer to being centered, but not quite there. Here is where I discovered something interesting,at least to me.

I deleted all but 1 whisker track and duplicated it. I then selected the duplicate and the turntable. I rotated both until the whisker track was centered in the upper stall. I then repeated the process for the lower stall. When I rotated just the turntable back to its original position, I noticed all 3 whisker tracks were connected to new "indexed" positions on the turntable. When I double-select the turntable, the connected whisker tracks get selected too. I did not expect this to happen. It tells me the displayed position points are not finite. In the photo, you can see how the whisker tracks are connected and the other positions based on 48 are still displayed. You can also see where the other whisker tracks connected to the 28" turntable with the original 36 positions.

Bob, please note that I understand indexing, until now I just didn't know how to deal with it in SCARM since the turntables all have set position points.

Another thing to notice is that I changed the track display to display the rails and not the footprint with ties and roadbed. This is because when I used the footprint display, they overlapped each other since the whisker tracks are now closer together. If you look closely at Tom's photos, you can see where he trimmed the roadbed. Thanks again for the photos, Tom.

Now you may ask what is the point to all this? Well, in addition to having a more accurate roundhouse to work with, assuming my methodology is correct, it may be possible to add 1 or more stalls. I noticed a note too on the specs sheet that a front extension couldn't be added to this configuration. I still need to figure out the 63" version, but I believe it is the 55" version with the front and rear extensions added. Since 55+6+3=64, presumably it's able to be placed 1" closer to the turntable, but in this case it has to be the 34" turntable or the engines won't clear the doors. I really hope someone checks my methodology. Hint-Hint.

Now for the Korber.
I never looked past the Model 304 on the Korber site, so I never saw the Model 320. In any case, Korber makes it easier because, unlike Altoona, they provide the basic dimensions. The 304 is 15"F x 28.5"B x 30"L and the 320 is slightly smaller at 15'F X 25"B x 26"L. Both are wider than the Altoona and increases the angle at which the whisker tracks have to come off the turntable in order to be centered in the stalls.

If you study the Korber schematics, they seem a bit confusing, at least to me. I can see how they're trying to show the effect of moving the roundhouse closer to the turntable. They show that even with indexing, the whisker tracks come off the turntable at different angles that may clear the door, but won't be centered in the stalls. It says that the roundhouse has to be 16.2" from the turntable for things to work correctly.

This is where I run into some trouble. Jan's diagram shows there is a difference in how far each model has to be from the turntable. However, once again the numbers don't seem to match. Using the numbers for the 304, Jan's photo shows the distance from the center of the 28" turntable to the front of the roundhouse is 27". This means the front of the roundhouse is 13" from the edge of the turntable (27-14) while the schematic on Korber's site says it has to be 16.2". The schematic also says the length is 59.7", not the 56.25" in the photo. This is explained by the difference in distance from the turntable and I suspect the engines might not clear the columns between the doors if it's set to close, hence the 16.2".

I don't have time tonight, so I'll fiddle with this some more tomorrow.

Dave,

I have attached one page from a very old copy of Track Planning for Realistic Operation by John Armstrong.  That page appears to use uniform sized turntables to show the relative positioning (and space use) of roundhouses based on the degree of angle used by each stall in each roundhouse.  Unfortunately, the discussion doesn't provide any real dimensions, but it seems clear that the amount of space used by a RH & TT combo can be dramatically impacted by the degrees of angle used per stall.

I also vaguely remember a discussion in a RH & TT construction series of articles in Model Railroader magazine back in the 1960s or 1970s.  If you can find them, they might also provide some useful planning info.  Hope this helps a little bit in resolving your dilemma.

Chuck

Chuck,

Thanks. That's similar to the examples shown on the Korber site and Jan's earlier post. The different angles needed by the Altoona and Korber models also shows that models with wider angles (Korber) need to be further from the turntable than those with tighter angles (Altoona). Like you noted, it doesn't show specific dimensions and that is at the heart of the problem.

Jan's diagram from RRT shows the Korber model 3" closer than the Korber specs say. 13" vs 16". I don't know how Jan determined that he could place the roundhouse 13" from the turntable, but I can see that indexing allows whisker tracks to align themselves int he stalls. However, what I can't tell is if  the engine clear the doorways that close. From what I can see, the columns between the doors are somewhat large and maybe that's why Korber says 16.2" from the turntable. As I said, I don't have the Korber model in RRT and I'm not going to shell out the $19 for something I'll use sparingly. However, I'm attempting to create my own models in RRT of both Korber and Altoona turntables. RRT lets me specify exact coordinates for the corners of the stalls and align 3 of them correctly, something I'm unable to do in SCARM.

I've started to work on the math of turntable and roundhouse design.  This is the diagram that I put together.  If you have the with of the front, rear, and side walls you can compute the distance from the TT center and the arc width of the stall.  If you want to design your own given your constraints on space the equations can give you the other data that you need. 

θ_s - arc angle of the roundhouse stall

w_f - width of from wall

w_r  - width of the rear wall

l_s - length of the side wall

d_s - depth of the stall

r_r - distance from TT center to rear wall

r_f - distance from TT center to front wall

r_RH - distance from TT center to rear corner of RH

Jan

PS.  I'll edit the post with the equations and any examples that I can find.

Jan,

I think another important RH construction factor in determining overall space utilization is the angle at which one stall is placed next to the other.  From what I can tell, the wider that angle happens to be, the closer to the TT the RH can be placed, and vice versa.  At least, that's what John Armstrong's discussion seems to indicate.

Chuck

Chuck,

That's right.  There is a minimum practical width to the front wall to provide access for the locomotives.  On the Korber round houses it slightly wider than 5 inches.  The closer that wall is to the turntable, the greater the angle.

Dave, Bowser published this info on their 32" TT and the Korber 304.  I found it in a catch all directory on my computer.

Jan

Dave,

Altoona Model Works RH door openings are 3.6"

Bob

Dave,

Bob, from Altoona Model Works, said the door "opening" was 3.6 inches, but you used that at the front of each stall as the stall width in your diagrams above.  I have to believe there's some space between each actual door for building and door support.  I'm going to bet the actual stall width is closer to 5 inches.  Then, you need to center the doors in each stall for actual track alignment to TT.

Chuck

Chuck,

That’s a good point. I’m composing an email right now to show them the dimensions I’m using. If I don’t get a reply, I’ll give them a call. I’d like them to see what I’ve got when I call. I’m sure an estimate of a 12” Front Wall x 26” Depth x 24” Rear Wall set 15” from the 28” turntable is close enough to show what will fit in the space, but I’m trying to give Bob an accurate rendering complete with centered whisker tracks and a 28” turntable. If my numbers are correct, then I can show Bob how it would look with a 30” turntable using a circle since SCARM doesn’t have a 30” turntable.

Cheers, Dave

As you all know, I’ve been trying to create a scale model by building 1 stall from the Altoona specs they sent me and the specs on the site, then copying it and rotating it twice to make a 3-stall version. Unfortunately, that has not worked and I’ve given trying that methodology. Simply dividing the 39” from the 5-stall specs and then multiplying that by 3 to get the rear wall length doesn’t come out, probably because of the angles involved. Anyway, I then used the 55” x 25.76” box from the file he sent me. I added 3 simple rectangles 4.307” x 26” and didn’t worry about the sides. After that, I rotated the rectangles and spread whisker tracks 9° from each other and the result fit in the box. I then drew a polygon inside the box and that is what I’m using for the footprint. I’ll post examples tomorrow and send them to Alton to get confirmation that I’ve got the right idea.

Okay, assuming I did things right, here's a new version with the Altoona 55" Roundhouse and Millhouse River Studio's 28" turntable. Photo 1 show a full view of the layout. Photo 2 shows a closeup of the yard section. Photo 3 shows a closeup of the turntable and roundhouse footprint.

Although creating the footprint has been frustrating, I actually learned quite a few things about SCARM that I haven't had a reason to learn until now and came up with a simpler approach than the one I posted last night. Some of these I knew existed, but never used them. First up is the Start Point in the Toolbox. With it, you can set a new Start Point at specific coordinates and angles. In this case, I set a start point at 14,0 (x,y) with a 0° angle. I added the 28" turntable and that put the center at 0,0. This TT has connection points at 10°, so I needed to figure out how to draw lines for the tracks and sidewalls of each stall. SCARM makes you draw narrow rectangles for lines and they're cumbersome. The new method turned out to be rather simple. I changed the track display settings to center and separators only. That displays a straight line with tick marks where tracks join. I set a new start point at 0,0,4.5° because each whisker track interval needs to be 9° (9, 18, 27). That means the sidewalls need to be offset by half that, 4.5° (4.5, 13.5, 22.5, etc.). I set 7 of these to mark the 3 whisker tracks and 4 sidewalls.

Next was setting the front wall. Altoona says it needs to be 15" from the TT, so I used one 10" and four 1.25" tracks to set that distance. Since the overall length is 55", the depth of a stall is 26" (55-14-15) and I added two each of 10", 1.75" and 1.25" tracks to set the overall length.. Altoona says the distance between the ends of the rear stalls is 25.76",so I added the green 25.76 x 55 rectangle (left end is covered by TT). I then drew the brown (?) polygon between the tick marks on the walls at the 15" and 26" points to get the roundhouse. As you can see, it fits the footprint Altoona sent me and AFAIK, that should be the the amount of space needed for a 28" turntable and Altoona 55" Roundhouse with 3 stalls 26" deep.

Now, you may be wondering what the yellow and blue rings are. Well, they represent the diameter of 30" and 34" turntables. As you can see in Photo 2, there is enough length to the whisker tracks and the tracks leading to the turntable to substitute a 30" or 34" turntable and not increase the footprint. One thing I just noticed and hadn't considered is how the turntable is mounted. Looking at photos, there are 4 tabs about an inch in length at 90° that need a solid surface for mounting. That means the 34" will barely fit as configured if it's set where the tabs can be attached to the decking. 

Did you notice the gray arrows in Photo 2? I misspoke the other day when I said the whisker tracks connected to new index points. I inadvertently rotated those tracks to 10° and that matched the points on the turntable, duh. The other thing of note is that the whisker tracks around the rest of the layout can be mounted at other angles, not just 9°.

When it comes to Photo 1, you might have noticed that the blue and yellow mains could be moved to the left to expand the space on the peninsula, but then the blue main would be covered by the green upper run. The green track is just under 4" from the edge and the blue track is right around 10". Up to this point, I haven't worried about that spacing, so I probably need to look at the original drawings again to see how Bob has them set.

Photos 4&5 show what the full view and closeup of the yard would look like with the 60" version of the roundhouse. The front of the roundhouse is 14" from the 28" turntable, 13" from a 30" and 11" from a 34". It has  35" interior whisker tracks and it might just fit. I'll have to play around with it some more, but it's getting late here.

EDIT: I went ahead and did a quick alternate version Photo 6. I suspect too much of the blue main is covered, but I wanted to through the idea out there.

Photo 1

Photo 2

Photo 3

Photo 4

Photo 5

 Photo 6

For those of you still following this thread, I think we're almost at the end. As it was, going clockwise was cumbersome, so I added two more crossovers in the right-hand corners. After adding those, I decided to add the modifications I'd make if this were my layout. I've enclosed photos of 2 versions; Photo 2 is 55" version and Photo 3 is expanded 60" version. Things to note are the width of bottom decking and the width of aisle around peninsula. The 55" version accommodates up to 25" engines, the 60" up to 35" engines. Given that Bob wants to be able to pull his 30" engine into the roundhouse, I'd learn to live with the tighter aisles. Since the aisles are less than 24" to begin with, living with them as shown shouldn't be too difficult. A lot of folks like 36" aisles so 2-3 people can mill around easier, but he doesn't have that kind of space.

I also added a photo without the green upper level (Photo 1) to hopefully make it easier to see how the turntable, roundhouse and yard areas work. What you might not notice right off is that I changed the coaling tower section and the small yellow siding inside the upper green loop. ALL turnouts and curves on the lower level are now O-72 or larger to accommodate any engine he wants to run, those he buys or those his friends bring over.

As you can see, I added crossovers to the other 2 corners for a total of 4. I knew there had to be an easier way to operate and a question he asked about crossovers prompted me to rethink things. I don't know if he didn't see the lower left crossover or just thought there should be 4, but it doesn't really matter. I added the shortcut from turntable to yard, but you can operate just fine without it. Here's how I now see operations:

Counter-clockwise using shortcut
- take engine off turntable going forward using shortcut to yard
- back up to pick up consist
- pull cars out of yard going through lower leg of wye
- that's it, just keep going.

Counter-clockwise without shortcut
- take engine off turntable going backward through upper leg of Wye
- back engine past lower leg of Wye
- back engine through lower leg of Wye to pick up consist with rear coupler
- pull consist forward through lower leg of Wye
- that's it, just keep going.

Clockwise using shortcut
- take engine off turntable going backward using shortcut to yard
- back up to pick up consist with front coupler
- pull cars out of yard going through lower leg of wye
- park cars between 2 bottom crossovers
- run engine though right crossover to outer main
- run engine around consist using outer main
- run engine through left crossover to inner main
- back up to pickup consist with rear coupler
- pull consist forward
- that's it, just keep going.

Clockwise without shortcut
- take engine off turntable going forward through upper leg of Wye
- back through Wye past lower leg of Wye
- run engine through lower leg of Wye to pick up consist with front coupler
- back cars out of yard going through lower leg of wye
- park cars between 2 bottom crossovers
- run engine though left crossover to outer main
- run engine around consist using outer main
- run engine through right crossover to inner main
- back up to pickup consist with rear coupler
- pull consist forward
- that's it, just keep going.

NOTE: The only real difference without the shortcut is using the Wye to make 3-point turns to pick up a consist with the appropriate coupler (front or rear).

Cheers, Dave

 Photo 1 - minus upped level

Photo 2 - 55" version

Photo 3 - 60" version