Dave and Dan, you guys make a great team. I'm enjoying watching this plan evolve. There's a lot going on in this relatively small space, and I mean that as a compliment. 
Wow thanks everyone yes please do keep the recommendations going your right i don’t even know exactly what day to day operations are planned i just like watching locos run. Day to day stuff isn’t so important to me as scenery and running the trains. I am sure at some point i will start to realize what day to day things i want but don’t forget i also have that office space that shares that wall at the top of the drawing so i can also expand on the layout once i cut holes into the drywall. If you take the layout at the top left corner of the drawing and count 6 feet to the right that’s how much space i have going in and out of the office because after 6 feet it turns into a walk in closet. But that closet is very small. The room once you get past that wall is about 17 feet long by 10.5 feet wide and i can probably clean it out and use about 70 % of that space.
All these ideas are awesome and yes this is how i learn too anyone with different ideas or if you see something that can be improved let us know i welcome any and all ideas as this is how i will too learn and see differences with different drawings.
I thank everyone for their input here. Thanks @doubledaz for continuing to make the changes as ideas come up and i do open these up side by side in my double screen monitors to see the differences that’s how i relate and compare even the part drawings with the different turnouts etc it’s all very cool and i have learned quite a lot here
This most recent drawing with the double cross over does have me quite interested and i have held off in ordering anything too fast or at all just so i can see how more ideas come up i don’t want to jump too quick as i see these ideas come up i can easily change up my parts list and and go with the changes.
I may not respond as quickly but i am reading for sure only because i had to go back to my full time job after christmas break lol but i always have fri-sun off to mess with trains and even adter work
So now the question is, what transformer and what type of control system for this layout. TMCC, Lionel Layout Control System, DCC?
I also have seen people talk about rail sounds and things like that to get realistic effects from your trains. I know alot of loco's and diesels do this but is there any suggestions on that part , i know alot of times you want to wire things as you go because it may require a solder connection to the track or some type of sensor installed. I havent tried any of these things yet but there are so many options out there picking the right one or best one is always tricky
Thanks those are close but i’ll probably need to do an more exact measure meant fa toting in the walk in closet and areas i can’t use in that room but other than that this is close. This one’s not a immediate thing at all that’s later down the road but i will for sure get the switch setup in the main layout for it so i don’t have to rip up track later.
I have to convince the wife to let me bust the wall down lol or make the tunnel, i told her i can always get a drywall guy to redo the wall if we sell the house one day it’s not that big of a deal 😂 but you know how wives are when us train guys want more room even though it’s my office that’s getting the wall cut up 😝
Hooefully someone here had some electrical experience with the different type of TMCC, LCS and DCC options and even rail sounds so i can factor in thear ideas too.
Dave, just plotted it out since I still had my laptop open.
davehall83, you want to enjoy the presence of the trains and you don't want them to become an obstacle or an eyesore. If you do decide to go through the wall try to make as few holes as you can and dress them up.
Here's a 10000' level overview.
In O we have conventional control and command control. Conventional is the original train control where the speed is controlled by increasing or decreasing the voltage with the handle of a variable transformer. There are two major players in command control, Lionel Legacy and MTH Digital Command System (DCS). Legacy is a superset of TMCC. These systems run with a constant 18 vac and all control is microprocessor based. You push a button on the remote and a message is sent to the engine.
DCS works best by following a few recommended practices during wiring. Legacy/TMCC will work fine with this and only requires a single wire connection to the common rails. You can issue TMCC commands from the MTH DCS system using a serial cable between the DCS base (TIU) and a Legacy/TMCC base. But this arrangement will not issue any advanced Legacy commands. Or you can just run the Legacy/TMCC engines from the Lionel remote.
Since this thread is in the Track Planning forum, might I suggest you start a new thread (or maybe just read existing threads) in the Control Systems forum.
Chuck
@PRR1950 posted:Since this thread is in the Track Planning forum, might I suggest you start a new thread (or maybe just read existing threads) in the Control Systems forum.
Chuck
Really? He just asked a general question and got a general reply. It may involve wire but it is still part of planning.
I do support your suggestion that Dave spend some time with the SEARCH tool.
Hey folks no worries i understand i will start a thread in the control/electrical forum. Thanks for your help
@DoubleDAZ and folks here ,
So my layout is about to get even better so i know i said i was going to cut that office wall later but i i thought about it and i should do it now so i don’t mess up any scenery or track and things with drywall dust so that being said the attached photo of the latest layout you made me is going to happen the tunnel portals will be on that wall and i am attaching some photos of the wall and the next room the track will go into. The office space will get cleared out so don’t worry for this layout. No benchwork or anything has been done i am probably just going to get the hole cut and maybe put some tunnel portals in the wall i can get off lionel or woodland scenic or something. The guy cutting these holes for me wants to see if i can get a styrofoam tunnel or something to model against so he can cut the hole tight and make it look good with a tunnel portals. So i am open to suggestions on tunnel portals to go against the wall and also any design considerations and designs for more track into this next room. I think i do want a ross turntable and roundhouse stalls for my trains in this room along with lots of track and stuff. I realize to make this look good making the wall look like rock and a real mountain portal and tunnel will make this really cool. I have to update the layout to show my total space but as posted earlier this is a 17 long by 10.5 wide room. We can explore multiple levels and all kinds of ideas. I love where we have gotten this so far and making these decisions up front helps me avoid having to climb in the inaccessible areas to try and make the drywall cuts. I have to figure out a good way to take your track plan and get a to scale drawing or some how get it laid out or measured out right so i can ensure one i am laying track in the right places based on the drawing and secondly to make sure the tunnels are cut right in the right place. So ideas on that and tunnel portals and all that are welcome
I am attaching photos of this and latest layout dave did for me and a tunnel portal idea i see online
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Well, with this development, your original layout can look a lot less cramped!! Couple of comments, though.
Entering your wall/tunnel directly off of a switch is going to cause multiple problems. First, switches are natural derailment causers; maybe not frequently, but even once could be a problem tearing up your tunnel or damaging your engine. Best to enter tunnel off plain straight or curve piece of track, and don't even think about putting a switch (even partially) in a tunnel.
Second, you could put your tunnel entrances at the bottom of a wall-painted tunnel, but that will look cheesy from some angles. You might consider using a smaller 3D mountain piece against your wall that then blends in to your "painting."
Finally, on your plan drawing, be sure to indicate the location where you access the other room. Also, with the added space, you could convert your smaller area into a port (with a disguised double-track loop) while using your larger space to represent a city with an industrial area, yard and enginehouse.
Chuck
Some random thoughts.
I just realized I don't know where the entrance to the adjoining room is. 
Anyway, here are some thoughts.
The MTH portal in the photo has an inside width of only 7.5" suggesting a center rail spacing of 3.5". I couldn't find the total width, but there's probably an inch on each side, so now we're up to 9.5" and with any kind of landscaping and/or wider spacing, I'd plan for at least a 12" space.
However, since the tunnel will be on a mainline run, I'd suggest 4.5" or more spacing. The width of the double crossover in the photo with the 4.5" spacing and roadbed is 8" in SCARM. I added this to examples 1 and 5 for spacing and to add reversing capabilities. I also added the Ross 33" turntable and an Altoona roundhouse to show how much space they need and because they are capable of handling the larger engines. Obviously all these are just example for discussion purposes. If I were doing this, I'd probably create a full-length pass-through/see-through in the wall, though that might be too ambitious, especially if the wall is load-bearing.
Photo 1 show a double crossover creating 2 reversing loops allowing all trains to go through the tunnel in either direction. The original design is in Orange, so obviously it would have to be redone.
Photo 2 shows a simple dogbone with trains traveling in only 1 direction at a time. It also requires the original to be redone.
Photo 3 shows a more complicated dogbone with the angled path through the tunnel.
Photo 4 shows the design with a slightly modified original.
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Yeha opening that wall up would be nice but the wife may stop that lol she’s willing to let me have 2 tunnels though.
I definitely want to keep the original we had a close to what we had as possible , i do like photo 1 and the last two which had less modifications to the original deign but i also like the reversing loop ideas. Does photo 1 with the changes show that blue set of track on top of the orange have it elevated and that’s why it can be there like that ?
The MTH 40-9015 Double Tunnel Portals (plastic) are about 7 1/4" inside width and 11" wide at the top.
If you need a wider track space and you can still find one, the K-Line 6-21454 Double Tunnel Portals (plaster) are about 9 1/8" inside width and 13" wide at the top.
More pics attached below.
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No, that was just to show the difference between what was there vs what would be there, the Blue only. I haven’t given any thought to how to fill that in with spurs. But, I just noticed one option I hadn’t considered, so I’m working on it now.
I will have to get some measurements this is very close but i will work on making changes to the boundaries of the room/walls for that office and to show the window locations and entry door and items that cannot move in that room. My general contractor i use to do drywall work was here and we discussed more of this tunnel he said he could get it to go through the walk in closet which would widen the circle but i have to decide if thats going to give me much benefit and i have a server closet in there and penetrating that wall could cause other issues. I thought about cutting some of that wall like it was mentioned to make it one wide entry / exit way for the train but i think im going to be stuck with tunnel portals. That wall we dont believe is load bearing at all. Are the advantages of using the wye instead of the double cross over better or what if we still just used one entry track and exist track like shown on other photos with the pictures you had shown just was curious of the advantages over this? Also im sure we can fill alot of this space with spurs/more track and things but a reversing loop does seem adventacious as well and i thought about this and maybe trains running in both directions are cool but i wont push my luck there lol theres just soo many options
Hi Dave,
Here's what I think you're up against, though I'm far from a construction expert
The Orange rectangles represent 2x4 studs on 16" centers.
The Blue rectangles show where those studs would be in the pass-through wall on 24" centers.
The difficulty is getting a tunnel through the wall while avoiding the studs.
As you can see, the right leg of the Blue Wye goes right through a 16" stud, but works great with the 24" stud.
The Purple tracks have an O-72 switch with a straight track going through the wall. I think you can see that neither configuration works with 16" studs while the top Purple tracks "might" work with 24" studs.
The Yellow tracks have an O-72 switch with O-72 curves and it works better than the others, the reason I used it in my very first example. Unfortunately, given the use of a curve going into the tunnel, an extra large portal will be needed to contended with the large engine overhang Chuck mentioned. I favor a build-your-own portal, but all options will present a landscaping challenge.
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If I'm understanding correctly the wall in question is not a load bearing wall, so cutting the studs to allow for a tunnel pass through, would be a simple matter for a carpenter to install horizontal blocking above and below the cut studs, extending left and right to adjacent studs. These horizontal blocks are often referred to as non-load bearing headers. This would likely require a little drywall patching.
That would be my thought too, Steve. Either way, I’d cut the opening extra wide and cover it with landscaping, at least on the left side, so a portal could be installed at an angle to the wall and perpendicular to the track.
Obviously, I favor the version with the Wye because I like being able to reverse trains. It’s also a lot cheaper than the version with the double crossover, those aren’t cheap. And again, none of these are meant to be final designs.
How do i draw a simple line in scarm, is there anyway i can put in the length of the line and have it make a straight line?
If you want to make a straight line that's not part of the "bench", go to the left-hand column's drop down menu and select Figures. You can then draw a very thin rectangle.
To make it a specific length, use the numbers in the lower left corner of the main window as a guide. If it's not to your liking at first, it can be edited by selecting it again and dragging the small squares at the corners of the selected object.
If you want it to be any other angle than vertical or horizontal, after drawing the "line" select it and right-click the selected rectangle/line and choose Rotate from the local pop-up menu.
@SteveH
What i am trying to do is draw my walls so that we can figure out this going into the office dilema i have all the dimensions but they are very specific ie down to the 16th's of an inch, so is there a way to input that?
Yes,
Step 1 - go to Settings - Edit - Tolerances: Distance 0.06 in.
Step 2 - use the polygon figure to draw the irregular boundaries of the room using the X - Y co-ordinates as a guide. The co-ordinates can be found in the lower left pane of the main SCARM window.
To make the corners as accurate as I wanted, I first drew the shape getting each point close to where I wanted it. After the basic room outline/polygon was a closed object, I then selected the polygon and zoomed in to each point and one by one moved each point to the precise location using the Co-ordinates in the lower left pane as my guide for placement.
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Steve, have you ever used RR-Track? When it comes to drawing figures, it puts SCARM to shame. To me, that is the biggest failure of SCARM. Now, to be fair, SCARM isn’t designed to create figures, I consider that a welcome bonus. What bugs me most is I can create the baseboard by entering specific coordinates, but not rectangles, polygons, etc. There’s probably a technical reason, but I don’t know what it is. Editing figures by aligning numerous data points is very tedious and still not “exact” because 2 points can’t occupy the exact same point. And, a true figure generator would not force one to stack tiny rectangles to create a facsimile of a slanted rail on a bridge, etc., in 3D. The other thing is that RR-Track uses “active” layers, so that if you have polygon of the room, you can make it “inactive” so it doesn’t accidentally get selected. The only way to do that in SCARM is to completely hide that layer. That’s probably why users tend to design rooms, etc, using rectangles as walls outside the baseboard. It’s the same with using polygons to get the landscaping to remain flat. In a small design it’s not that bad, but in a large design, it’s too easy to click on the poly instead of a track. Turning layers on/off works, but it’s certainly not optimum. That’s not really a critism, just an observation.
@DoubleDAZ No I haven't tried RR Track, I'm happy enough with SCARM. Agreed SCARM is not great at polygons or other things one might normally do in a typical CAD program, but it's passable for my model RR planning needs. I also have the room outline for my layout on it's own Layer for the very reasons you mentioned. For the baseboard, it is IMO much easier to to enter the co-ordinates using the toolbox commands. It would be great if that same type of data entry were possible with figures. As far as the non-overlapping points, I've worked around that by just offsetting them by some tiny fraction of an inch, which when zoomed out doesn't seem to matter (at least to me in this application). In the physical world of model railroading, I can deal with a 1/64" discrepancy.
I still really like SCARM for track planning, but for more critical work than a room outline, I prefer other purpose designed CAD programs.
Steve, I wasn't suggesting I didn't like SCARM, just pointing out the 2 things I use a lot that work better in RR-Track, though I haven't used RR-Track for at least a couple of years other than to help someone with a design they did with it instead of SCARM.
Dave, I didn't get the impression you were disparaging SCARM at all, just wishing the typical CAD stuff were easier, like me and others. Sorry I didn't make that clear.
You do so much here on the forum to help others using SCARM, I figured you like it too, otherwise you'd typically use something else. I understood that you were just having a conversation with me and I appreciate this. Happy to discuss, anytime.
Maybe we could ask scarm if they could add a feature they could sell to get more cad capabilities for advanced drawings or if they cold do an extension that we could buy because if they did i’m their first customer. I do really like scarm too so it’s just a matter of some tweaks they could do.
Any thoughts on the new drawing with the wall layer with my dimensions?
AFAIK, SCARM is Milen Peev, Author and Developer; one man. He's done a lot essentially by himself to make continual improvements to the program for the purpose it's designed to do, design a model train layout. I can appreciate that adding the desired functionality of typical CAD stuff would be a major time consuming detour from his main objective of continuing to develop a powerful low cost modelling app. Maybe a plug-in would be possible, but even such a collaboration with another developer would mean a significant amount of time making everything compatible. But who knows, we're at version 1.9.0 now. Maybe it's in the works for 2.X.
You fellows are making good progress with later editions of the track plan showing a Wye and turntable. The Wye will allow reversing trains and the TT will provide the ultimate in activity and joy of operation.
The turntable does not have to be expensive as a $10 homemade turntable is easy to build plus a lot of fun. Here is a photo of mine, which can be built to any length. It can be belt driven with a hand crank like mine or can have an old battery driven screw driver as power and the TT can be located anywhere.
Details on construction on OGR post below.
It was great to see this track plan evolve with input from many and the result will be much greater than originally conceived. My layout started simply 44 years ago and still improved as late as 2 years ago when I added a Wye.
https://ogrforum.com/...3#157406523846615753
Scroll up the first post of this topic to start learning about the Homemade $10 turntable
Charlie
Interesting turn table you have there looks real nice. I was looking at the ross ones and they are nice but $$$ i may break down and get them because of the quality of ross materials but you have a point.
Just want to make sure you guys saw this one and i am adding the picture of it too for those who dont have scarm.
Ok so i did my best here, i took one of the latest drawings and i measured every wall in the office and train room to get exact figures. Its 99% accurate. So if you look at the walls layer that is what i have the walls under. Red Rectangles are Walls, Black Rectangles are the studs in that wall so we can see what we have i did my best to get the centers and they are 16 inches to each center. The 2 green rectanges in the train room represents the gap/space of the benchwork to the wall so in the rear its 3 3/16 inch of space between the edge of plywood and the back wall. The wall to the office is another green rectangle that is 7/8 inch of gap. The train table does go down a small bit past the wall which is fine we had to create some gaps. Yellow rectangle in the back wall is just to show the one wall's approximate thickness of 4.5 inches which is what building code says it should be but dont quote me on that its just what i think it is. The office area i captured the distances of that closet. The reason why the lines are lined up the way they are around all walls is to be as accurate as possible as to how i measured. I measured on the inside of all rooms to get the inside dimensions which is usable space. The purple rectangle is the doorway into the office and closet. Also there is a desk area that cant be used that space inside the green area is an area we cant build into.
Did my best on this so we can build around the obstacles. By the way i like the revsing loop and the turn table on the left side of the room as you can see why now. Multiple levels may come into play down the road but just trying to get this one figured out. Also i dont have an issue with non load bearing wall headers and having my guy cut the studs and box them off to make the track fit properly and get the best out of this. If thats the case i just need to figure out what to stuff in that wall to make it look good and keep it framed out/looking like scenary. If you can build around these walls what were working on this will make it easier to layout. At this point with the accuracy needed on this i wonder how to use a plotter or something to get this laid out on the bench to put ontop and lay the track out right. Benchwork in office doesn't exist yet but it willl once we figure it out Scarm drawing attached. Again much thanks to all
I also agree with doubledaz here scarm is great but the effort involved doing simple lines was crazy if it were autocad this would be easier to get down to a 1/16 of an inch and get precise lines to what i measured now it’s almost exact but without snap to grid and all that stuff it’s hard and even making my lines all the same thickness which is because of the lack of a line tool. For example i feel that other programs have feature scarm doesn’t like anyrail has a line tool that snaps to grid and it’s much easier to use. But anyrail lacks the ability to cut sectional track which made this layout a complete mess on that software and i want the track to be accurate to what we are doing so that’s where scarm seems to shine. I haven’t used RR-Track but that probably had its own pros and cons too. Would be great if scarm added some cad capabilities i would be willing to pay more for an add in extension to get the abilities of drawing precise walls with lines and stuff.
I did reach out to anyrail and they said in Any Rail 7 their next release coming out there are going to be a bunch of improvements and one of them is to be able to cut section straight and section curve track like in scarm which is a big deal. That means anyrail may have an advantage with its ability to draw lines like on cad
I think that we mayu end up removing one of those 16 on center studs in that wall to get the track we want through there or tunnel, if thats the best bet @DoubleDAZ we can draw it that way and just put headers there.
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Steve, I just didn't want anyone reading this ti get the wrong impression.
Dave, here's a photo of the file I downloaded from your latest post. Just FYI:
- I don't see any Green rectangles in the Train Room, but I get that the layout is 3 3/16" from the back wall.
- There are 2 Green rectangles in the Office, but I think I understand that there is a 7/8" gap between the table/desk in that room and the top Green rectangle and that the table extends a bit past the Green side wall.
- I understand the Yellow rectangle. The width of the wall is 3 1/2" for the studs and the 1/2" drywall on both sides making it 4 1/2".
- I see the doors and the office area that is off limits.
With that in mind, here's my latest versions. Both versions are in the same file, just on difference layers; Alt-L and Alt-R. As you can see, O-72 curves are going to be a close fit on the right in the Office area. This photo shows the TT/RH on the left and I always fill empty space with tracks to show possibilities. No matter how you do things, the problem is going to be your ability to reach tracks that are over 36" away. The Yellow rectangles are access panels and still don't allow access unless you place one where the end spurs are.
Here's another version, but it also needs some access hatches. I added yard tracks to both because in mu mind it's crazy to have a turntable without storage for cars.
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Maybe a few custom made curved lift bridges and a walk-in area for the back of the office would provide the necessary reach?
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Thanks for this, your drawing does align good for the office space. Now that i think about it that door for the closet makes it so that space is not usable. If we did something crazy like let the trains through the closet would that add any benefit? I do see your point with access hatches. This turntable idea does eat some space for sure. I like it but doesn't leave much for scenery or buildings i am sure. There is the area to the left of it but i guess thats cant be used because of the curves needed but noticing your ALT L it does take advbantage of that space which maybe benefical but we loose our spurs. Itas almost like that closet would be nice if a train could come through the red side of the wall next to the door. Space seems to go quickly no matter how much room you gain or loose. Will it give a parts list based on layers selected or will it just spit them all out?
I am leaning to the ALT R design. Needless to say my wife is going to think im nuts. I think the greatest challenge is going to be getting benchwork/access panels in place unless something is designed just around where the tracks need to be a bit more open type of benchwork instead of what i did in the other room
Hmm thats a good idea for lift bridges., maybe the Alt L is better than and just add some idustry stuff with spurs. I think on both layouts im going with coal and logging stuff. Maybe some others not sure lol. I do plan to add some coupling/uncloupling tracks that also have the operating track built in for dumping coal/logs its the gargraves pieces that have that option i think is the only way i can get that feature. Can you tell me what the two green tracks do there is 2 entries into the turn table does that allow turning around, maybe im just not seeing it or realizing the advantage to that just curious what the idea on that was.
@davehall83 posted:..Will it give a parts list based on layers selected or will it just spit them all out?
Select which parts are included in the list from the options in the drop-down menu (red arrow)
If you want the parts grouped by Layers, check the box (highlighted in yellow)
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@davehall83 posted:Hmm thats a good idea for lift bridges., maybe the Alt L is better than and just add some idustry stuff with spurs. I think on both layouts im going with coal and logging stuff. Maybe some others not sure lol. I do plan to add some coupling/uncloupling tracks that also have the operating track built in for dumping coal/logs its the gargraves pieces that have that option i think is the only way i can get that feature. Can you tell me what the two green tracks do there is 2 entries into the turn table does that allow turning around, maybe im just not seeing it or realizing the advantage to that just curious what the idea on that was.
Thank you, bridges definitely add another dynamic and dimension to a layout.
Otherwise, these are @DoubleDAZ's designs, so I'd prefer he answer your track question. All I did was to show how altering the bench configuration would possibly allow walk in for reaching the back corners and converted the existing bench top track to bridges. My guess for the two green tracks would be to allow passing near the turntable, among other possibilities.
Steve,
Like I said, I filled the space with spurs. I thought about modifying the baseboard to add the aisle and should have gone ahead with that version too. Maybe I'm trying to make this too prototypical by thinking there needs to be a yard as well as 2 leads to the turntable. I used the largest Ross turntable, so that could be scaled down as well. Dave won't be able to turn large engines with a smaller turntable, but he could use the Wye for those.
Dave/Steve,
When it comes to CAD capabilities, it's not really a big deal because the room itself is only useful when someone is trying to figure out what will fit, like we are at the moment. I just got used to being able to enter exact measurements in RRT to get accurate figures, but things don't really need to be that exact. Once the space that will be available for the layout is finalized, the room dimensions are moot. And, truth be told, all we really need to know is the distance between the top wall and the office wall. And since the bench work is not attached to the walls, we need to know how big the gap needs to be.
Dave,
The current room drawing suggests 79" on the right in the Office room and SCARM shows the diameter of an O-72 loop is just over 75", but I don't know how accurate that is for Ross track. At any rate, if you leave a 1" gap from the wall for the bench work, the tracks will be slightly under 1" from the edge of the benchwork, but the bigger problem is engine overhang on the larger engines coming out of the curve. Mind you, the center rail will still be about 3.5" from the wall which I believe equates to a 7" center-to-center spacing and should be enough, but I hate planning a design in such a close space. I think I can safely say it won't work with a 3"+ gap along the top wall.
I'm going to see what I can do with a smaller turntable, fewer whisker tracks and an aisleway. I hope you know there isn't much room for buildings in the other room either, so if you want them, some of the spurs are going to need to b deleted.
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