May God bless those crew members and their families, having been a freight conductor for four years, I can still recall the old head conductor telling me on my first day of duty, "you maybe have 1 or 2 seconds to decide if you jump or ride it out." Spiritual peace to all concerned...
jay jay posted:Two bodies recovered:
I'm not surprised but clearly we all were hoping for a different outcome.
So sad to hear, my prayers go out to their families and friends.
Margie and I went out and did a drive-by today. The wreckage was all piled up within the space of 6 or 7 car lengths. I have been to others, including one at Corona, CA, where I was part of the investigating team and saw the ashes of three friends. This one is about as bad as they get.
Previously, I gave wrong timetable directions. 
The trains were opposing each other and collided just east of the east switch of Panhandle siding.
The westbound train was preparing enter the CTC siding when the eastbound train collided with it head-on. The lone survivor was the Engineer of the westbound train, who saw that the opposing train was going too fast to stop and went out the front and joined the birds. He has injuries, because he jumped from a moving train approaching a 40 MPH turnout, but will recover within weeks.
The crew on the eastbound train originated at Amarillo and had run about 30 miles. The crew on the westbound train originated at Wellington, KS, and had run about 275 miles.
I'm going to attend the Engineer's funeral Saturday, as he used to be one of the Engineers on my territory when I was the Road Foreman of Engines. Very sad. He raised good kids and was always polite, especially to women and older men, displaying good Texas manners.
Tom, sorry for the news about your colleague. Yours is a small fraternity.
Very sad news, my prayers go out to their families and friends.
Douglas
Hot Water posted:That would be two restrictive signal indications PRIOR to the red absolute, i.e. flashing yellow, yellow and THEN the red.
Of course the investigation will hopefully find what happened, but this suggests the crew was incapacitated.
Bob
I would not go as far as to say incapacitated. But at the least not paying attention and following rules.
Another Article
Sorry to hear about your friend - sounds like a decent guy.
Number 90 posted:Margie and I went out and did a drive-by today. The wreckage was all piled up within the space of 6 or 7 car lengths. I have been to others, including one at Corona, CA, where I was part of the investigating team and saw the ashes of three friends. This one is about as bad as they get.
This is a rough time for you and your railroading circle, especially with an accident so close to home. My condolences to the families; also to you and your railroad family.
I am curious so I'll ask. From the video and numerous pictures I have seen, it looks like the collision occurred on a long straight. Isn't it possible that the engineers could see the enviable and jump out, like the one guy did? I know they couldn't have stopped in time, but it appears they all may have been able to jump. I know several of you have been or still are engineers and know what you're talking about. Please share thoughts on jumping.
I think it's very difficult to judge the speed if it's coming straight at you until it's too late. Jumping from a moving train at high speed is a sure way to get injured or killed. ( broken leg, landing on rocks and probably the most fear.. having the rolling stock pile up on top of you) .
The closest call I've had(as a brakeman) is getting out of the engine door, climbing down to the engine's steps getting ready to jump. Fortunately I didn't have to. This was more a tail ender rather than a head on but very close The train head went by us about 2 hours earlier but had problems with a dimensional load running hot and had to stop numerous times.
Fortunately our train was about 50 empty hoppers. A good braking train even going down hill and we got stopped.. The flagman didn't have time to get out very far and no time to get his torpedoes down. He waived us down frantically.. ( curved track )
Radio from the Conductor on the train ahead to his head end who's train had just cleared the crossing circuit....." You better start to pull right now, the crossing bells just started to ring".(single track)"
Now, if this line had not PTC but ATS installed, is there a chance this would not have happened?
That would be terrible, you have to jump and there is nothing but rocks to land on! And in this collision I can see if you didn't get away you could be crushed by the cars hurling around. It really is hard to comprehend the energy contained in a moving train.
Dominic Mazoch posted:Now, if this line had not PTC but ATS installed, is there a chance this would not have happened?
Yes, there would have been a chance. But Santa Fe only equipped passenger locomotives with ATS. Operating rules required that passenger trains must have operative ATS on the controlling locomotive in ATS territory.
And, as I pointed out in a recent thread about ATS and ATC, ATS is not foolproof. It requires that an Engineer acknowledge passing a signal less favorable than green, or a speed board advising of an upcoming permanent speed restriction. It does not force a stop at a stop signal.
When the NTSB hearing takes testimony from the BNSF officer who is analyzing the event recorder information, we'll know more about how each train was being operated as they respectively approached the collision point. I was the Santa Fe officer assigned to the NTSB committee for that purpose in the 1990 Corona head-on, and, even though the offending train only had an 8-event Pulse recorder, the information obtained from it was extremely valuable in determining how the collision occurred.
Clint...
To jump or not to jump??? That's a decision we hope we never have to make. When, what side, front or back, at what speed do you think you can make it... and if you stop and think about all that, then it's probably too late.
Mr Union Pacific posted:I am curious so I'll ask. From the video and numerous pictures I have seen, it looks like the collision occurred on a long straight. Isn't it possible that the engineers could see the enviable and jump out, like the one guy did? I know they couldn't have stopped in time, but it appears they all may have been able to jump. I know several of you have been or still are engineers and know what you're talking about. Please share thoughts on jumping.
On April 28, 2015 a head-on occurred on ex-ATSF track near Roswell, NM. It was not discussed on this forum. In this accident a main line switch was left lined and locked for Chisum siding, and a train was tied up IN the siding. The crew of the moving train did not see the misaligned switch in time, and decided to jump before impact (which was determined to be 31 mph) killing the engineer and seriously injuring the conductor. I haven't looked at NTSB to see if the investigation is concluded, but one of the preliminary statements from them said that the crew would have faired better by staying in the cab.
I marked off so long ago that I never got to work in these nice types of locomotives used today, but I wonder if they have a generalized rating as to how much impact they can absorb? Having said that, I can remember that the railroad never sat us down and taught us at what speed we should jump if we saw a disaster coming at us. The region in which I worked was dominated by oil fields, and always, our greatest fear was a transport truck hauling volatile liquids would pull out in front of us. It was our general agreement that we would rather jump and roll through the catclaw brush at any speed as opposed to riding out a fiery crash.
Number 90 posted:Margie and I went out and did a drive-by today. The wreckage was all piled up within the space of 6 or 7 car lengths. I have been to others, including one at Corona, CA, where I was part of the investigating team and saw the ashes of three friends. This one is about as bad as they get.
Previously, I gave wrong timetable directions.
The westbound train was preparing enter the CTC siding when the eastbound train collided with it head-on. The lone survivor was the Engineer of the westbound train, who saw that the opposing train was going too fast to stop and went out the front and joined the birds. He has injuries, because he jumped from a moving train approaching a 40 MPH turnout, but will recover within weeks.
The crew on the eastbound train originated at Amarillo and had run about 30 miles. The crew on the westbound train originated at Wellington, KS, and had run about 275 miles.
I'm going to attend the Engineer's funeral Saturday, as he used to be one of the Engineers on my territory when I was the Road Foreman of Engines. Very sad. He raised good kids and was always polite, especially to women and older men, displaying good Texas manners.
Tom, Prayers that the LORD will give rest to the souls of the crew and keep their families in his care.
No doubt, it is a dangerous job. I've never really thought about it. When you think about grade crossings and trains being on the wrong track at the wrong time, yep, very dangerous. I am sure jumping from a locomotive traveling 60 to 70 mph would be deadly, or at least make you feel like you were dead. That would be like jumping from my car on the interstate.
I wonder if the dispatcher had notified both trains that they would be meeting at this point? (It doesn't appear that he did.) Correct me if I am wrong, but, I seem to remember that BNSF does not require its crews to call all signals over the radio as NS does. If both trains had known there was to be a meet at this point, then, the absense of signal calling could be a sign that something wasn't right.
I don't think that there is a rule requiring dispatchers to notify crews of train meets, but, maybe there ought to be. If nothing else, it should be an unwritten rule. The more information a train crew has, the better they can adapt to changing conditions.
I have thought about the signals and dispatching but didn't say anything because of "jumping to conclusions" !! Obviously something or someone screwed up. Unfortunately head on collisions in such a situation go way back in railroad history. I haven't read anything about the poor soul who was still missing. Any news ??
Would anyone know if 3967 was the number of one of the lead engines? 
Here's the continuing coverage page by Channel 10. Nothing new on the third individual, I believe. They are selling a T Shirt to raise funds for the families.
http://www.newschannel10.com/c...anhandle-train-crash
jim pastorius posted:I haven't read anything about the poor soul who was still missing. Any news ??
Recent statements tend to indicate that her remains may NOT be able to be found due to the intense heat of the long burning fires. She would have been the Conductor on the westbound train. It all gets sadder by the day!
Thanks, HW. Appreciate the info. I considered that possibility. Often the the "remains" aren't very much. Yes, very sad.
Big Jim posted:I wonder if the dispatcher had notified both trains that they would be meeting at this point? (It doesn't appear that he did.) Correct me if I am wrong, but, I seem to remember that BNSF does not require its crews to call all signals over the radio as NS does. If both trains had known there was to be a meet at this point, then, the absense of signal calling could be a sign that something wasn't right.
I don't think that there is a rule requiring dispatchers to notify crews of train meets, but, maybe there ought to be. If nothing else, it should be an unwritten rule. The more information a train crew has, the better they can adapt to changing conditions.
I believe calling signals in CTC territory over the radio is a good thing especially in the wee hours of the morning sometimes know as "day light in the swamp". I know it's hard for some to believe but it can be difficult to stay alert . It's very scary to look over at an engineman and notice he's nodded off, Yeah I know it's usually the other way around.
Even non railroad related radio talk can be a good thing (Who won the ball game) in the early hours of the morning.
It seems this territory is very busy and has high speed turnouts. The engines must have some type of alerter. Unfortunately we can't go back in time.
Again, we are reminded on how unforgiving the railroad industry can be. I learned a lot of life lessons in my 37 years. I was involved in too many fatalities. One of my own men and several train crew members, countless crossing accidents, and pedestrians. In todays world, there are so many rules written in blood. Two things never change thou, common sense, looking out for each other, and respecting what it can do.
Gene,
You are so right, however in these modern times, the accidents are usually caused by a computer failure of some kind, with no human back up. You are seeing why my father was dead set against complete computer routing by the Railroads. I will be very surprised if this incident is any kind human failure or mistake.
What a mess and this time with a death toll.
PCRR/Dave
Pine Creek Railroad posted:Gene,
You are so right, however in these modern times, the accidents are usually caused by a computer failure of some kind, with no human back up. You are seeing why my father was dead set against complete computer routing by the Railroads. I will be very surprised if this incident is any kind human failure or mistake.
OK, but even if it was a "computer failure" how would that explain the eastbound train crew passing two restrictive signals, a red absolute stop signal, and then running through the power turnout that was aligned for the westbound train to enter the adjacent passing track? The eastbound speed was 67MPH at apparent impact with the westbound.
PCRR/Dave
Pine Creek Railroad posted:I will be very surprised if this incident is any kind human failure or mistake.PCRR/Dave
I wouldn't be surprised at all if it was human factor!
And there was the situation on the CSX where the "Juice Train" was in a siding, and an Amtrak train was coming toward it. To make a long story short, what Jacksonville wanted, and what the signals and switches showed and indicated were TWO different things. Crew on Amtrak slowed down and stopped its train, and called Jax before a head on . Anything come from that investigation?
Unlike the Goodwill, Oklahoma wreck, some years ago on the UP, where all the event recorders and video was totally destroyed, there is event information from this wreck. Not to mention the surviving Engineer from the westbound train that had already slowed to 40MPH in order to take the turnout.
I believe that it will be a human factor derailment with the Eastbound crew disregarding signals. Other than vandalism, the way computers back up the dispatchers, it would be hard to line two trains against one another without and override of some point.
Unless you are there, with some RR experience, everything is a guess at this point for us. I am pretty sure a cause has been found, now just proving with facts to back it up. Too much at stake for a comment to come out this early.
Our thoughts should stay positive for the families invloved, not just the train crew involved, but all first responders, and anyone who knows the industry.
It was good of Number 90 to provide some comments on this thread as this was his briar patch. Some of the other career railroad men spoke. I offered a little. Now I am going to say that railroaders do not like talking about this.
I was pleased with 2 days of silence on this thread.
I don't have the rocks to tell people to stop talking about something. Just know, railroad people do not like talking about this.
I can understand a reluctance on the part of R people to talk about an event like the one in Texas but asking for up-to-date info in no way disrespects the victims and their families. To the contrary-it shows sympathy and their concern.
Rather than a "human factor" there may have been a medical factor, such as a stroke, tia, or petit mal seizure. Such factors suggest that the most conscientious engineer could have affected by matters out of his control.
Tommy posted:Rather than a "human factor" there may have been a medical factor, such as a stroke, tia, or petit mal seizure. Such factors suggest that the most conscientious engineer could have affected by matters out of his control.
You forget that there two people in the cabs of those freight trains, i.e the Engineer AND the Conductor.
Unfortunately we will probably find out it was fatigue that caused this accident. I've lived it. I used to watch engineers and conductors fall asleep a lot on a moving train. Unless you lived being called a different times to work you have no idea how this bad this life is!
Tommy posted:Rather than a "human factor" there may have been a medical factor, such as a stroke, tia, or petit mal seizure. Such factors suggest that the most conscientious engineer could have affected by matters out of his control.
So then what was the conductor doing? Did they both have a stroke at the same time?
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