Train shows, selling vs buying

Yes, the NETCA has a rule, it's against early selling, you really need that 90 minutes to set up. That's where I've sold recently, but it doesn't stop other table holders from trying to buy pre-openning. I'm usually very busy in setting up so i ask them to wait a while, partly to make sure there is stuff left when the public gets in. 

The local fairground show doesn't turn up much, I spent maybe 4 bucks at the last one, buying small stuff. Same old 'beat up TYCO HO scale stuff in a yellowed old cardboard box' and 3-rail. I see 3-rail stuff dominate at most model train shows around here, but I'm not into that. There's a nice show for the Boeing model RR club at Kent, WA each fall and I hit that recently. I saw plenty of good deals, but I didn't need a lot of stuff. Got a bag full of resin castings for a great deal, that was worh the trip when coupled with the other stuff I got. My wife came along, so I was in and out of the show pretty quick. If I'd been more of a mindset to buy stuff, I could have spent a lot of money in there. There's a show this Saturday in Rickreal, Oregon I plan on going to.

Good deals are there if you get lucky. A pal of mine scored a HO scale diesel that'd fit on his layout, with DCC and sound equipped, for just 50 clams in new condition. Even I knew what a good deal that was. That show was good for the bigger vendors so i could get stuff at retail I was okay with paying (for example, I bought some good O scale figures I'd wanted) without having to pay postage and wait for them online.

I think a lot of vendors actually are there to buy stuff and don't much care if they sell anything at all. I do military collector shows and know several people who do exactly that.

Most of the best deals take place before the first paying customer walks in the door, between dealers long before the doors open. I know people who buy a sales table and don't bring anything to sell at all, so they can get in on the early deals.

When I got rid of most of my G scale at a show in 2007, I came in with 5 hand trucks full of LGB, Bachmann and Pola boxes filled with stuff. I sold EVERYTHING within 45 minutes of setting up, to other dealers and only had one book and one DVD on my table as the first paying customer walked through the door. The show opened at 10 and I was leaving the show at 10:15 as I didn't have anything else to sell.

That said, the arrogance of buyers always cracks me up, they'll see an item for, say, $100 and offer ten clams for it. Haggle room is one thing, but offering fractions of pennies on the dollar is simply an insult. I've even gone up of my prices when others start out that low. Doing that will usually just tick off a vendor. If you're looking to get a deal, start off with a sane offer.

The Collinsville, IL show over the weekend seemed to be well attended, and I think some people were buying.

 

I for once had a little money to spend, but nothing caught my eye. There was a lot of postwar, but not that much scale stuff.

 

Jeff C

Very interesting insight into the train show "business". Excellent information, it's changed my perspective. I always wondered why people had 2 or 3 items on their table (or none at all) & now I know. I also wondered why some shows have nothing but junk & I guess it's because the quality items were gone before the show even started. The politics of train shows, huh...

Well there  are allot of opinions on this.  I would prefer to buy and sell at shows also as I have had negative experiences buying on both the forum here and flea bay, with misrepresented items. I have come down to two take aways for me.

#1. I used to be part of Midwest tca when I lived outside of Chicago.  The two big meets they would have every year were great with a crowd very o gauge focused.  I really miss them.  The tca chapter in KC does not sponsor train shows (probably not enough interest), but rather hosts get togethers of various subjects theme which I really like but leaves us only with the mid America train show, which has very limited audience in o gauge.

#2 In the beginning, for me it was all about quantity and not quality.  As I have been in this for the last 20 years, I have lots of trains now, but only run the truly special ones.  So I have become very selective on the types of things I will buy as there is only so much room on the layout.

Regarding the comment above on not realistic prices are the cause of no sales, while I agree this can be true, not the case lately.  Used MTh premier freight cars in the box priced $20 a piece and not even an offer, suggests people are not looking for the items.  I wonder if o gaugers have given up on this show, already have enough stuff, or Kansas City doesn't have a big enough foot print for a large hi rail o gauge community.

 

Regarding sellers who buy items from other sellers before the general public is admitted.

I know a person who is an occasional seller only.  He likes to go to shows and set up his meager inventory just so he can get inside early and buy the stuff he wants from other sellers before the doors open.  His selling is really a subterfuge just to get in early.  Another thing some show promoters do at military relic shows:  They will charge a special fee to buyers who want to come in early to shop--like a VIP status for $50-$100 extra just for that privilege.  For serious collectors, I suppose they will pay it just to have the opportunity to get the best quality items.  I don't attend those shows when it comes to military collectibles.

I have done selling at TCA meets for unloading of O-gauge items and generally do pretty well but I always price things to move. Nice postwar with boxes got me pounced on at the last division meet. It was one of those times where 95% of the sales occur in the first 15 min.

 

Over the years, I've sold mostly at local shows (the Rickreall, OR show mentioned above) for the general public and these can be quite variable (too much of one thing or another can lead to no one selling much at all as it is too competitive). Each show sets up its own economic climate/marketplace.I've had great turnout and sales and times where the vendors outnumber the attendees 10 to 1.

 

I used to loathe the pre-show dealer sales as I wanted something to sell to the public but sometimes the only major sales you make is from the dealer sales. so if they can do my price, I don't care if they double it and try to sell it themselves (or not in most cases). I do note that the "junque" dealers (poorly glued together structures, parts/vehicles in bins, tons of old HO etc) can sell out as they are pricing stuff at a few dollars or less. I tried it the last time by having a bin of 25 cent stuff (patches, pins, etc) and another at a dollar - small parts etc - sold all of it and more money off the small stuff than the large stuff!

 

I'm not sure about this years show coming up...the economy is doing better so I hope that translates into more interest, more attendees and more sales for all. In Oregon here we have very few shows so that can work in a sellers favor - but it can be a lot of local determinants like the weather (too yucky and no one comes, but too nice everyone is out raking leaves and attendance is still down - a damp weekend is probably best).

 

Peter

I'm up in Buffalo, the biggest show for the year got canceled 10 days ago on account of a massive snow storm that shut the whole town down for a week. Because we couldn't go, I hit a couple of the train stores that are in the distant suburbs that I usually only go to once in a great while on Saturday. One owner of a shop that also does shows seemed relieved that he didn't have to go to the last one. I pressed him on it & him & his son went off Megaton for 5 minutes straight about how the transpo, table fees, set up time spent there, haggling, & tear down all turn it into a big hassle that barely seems worth it & is sometimes more about promoting the store than anything else. I just stood there listening like "uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, I thought trains were supposed to be fun............."

Ontario was the first Cal-Stewart that I have attended in SOCAL.  I have attended the NORCAL Cal-Stewart for several years.  

 

I was told that the show was moved from Pasadena to Ontario because the Pasadena convention center pricing had become much too expensive.  The Pasadena convention was rebuilt and now targets better paying events than train shows.   

 

The Ontario facilities were excellent as were the nearby hotels.  I don't think that Ontario is in the sticks.  I used to live and work in downtown LA.  Nearly anyplace in the LA area is difficult to reach because of the heavy traffic.  It took me nearly an hour to drive 7 miles at 3 p.m. on the Friday afternoon before the show.  Unless it is a Sunday morning, just about every place you drive in the LA area is at a crawl.  

 

The NORCAL Cal-Stewart meet is being moved from Santa Clara, where it has been held for the the last 10 years, to San Ramon, CA.  This is a move of about 60 miles.  San Ramon is about 25 miles east of San Francisco.  

 

The reason for the move is that the Santa Clara convention center became too expensive this year.  The new 49er stadium opened just a mile from the Santa Clara convention center in 2014.  The area hotel prices and convention center cost have gone up significantly.  For example, convention center parking used to be free.  It is now $40 per day without in and out privileges.  This what the 49ers charge for game parking.  Hotel rooms around the stadium used to be in the $110 per day range.  They now average $200 per day.

 

People who do the hard work to sponsor and put on shows should be commended for working to keep them in venues that are affordable.

 

Joe  

 

 

quote:

I used to loathe the pre-show dealer sales as I wanted something to sell to the public but sometimes the only major sales you make is from the dealer sales. so if they can do my price, I don't care if they double it and try to sell it themselves (or not in most cases).

 

I have never cared whether an end user or dealer purchased my stuff. I got my money. If the dealer bought the train to resell, more power to him. For a good long time, one of my best customers was the owner of the local train shop.

quote:

I just stood there listening like "uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, I thought trains were supposed to be fun............."

 

He probably shouldn't have been complaining to you.
When you own a train store, it isn't fun any more, its a business.

Hopefully the owner enjoys having his business, but it is still a business.

Funny thing about train shows. There was a time when the folks selling at the train shows I attended were all hobbyists, stores did not have tables.

Yeah, he wasn't bothering me. I'm street smart enough to know that with anything that there is out there in life, there's going to be a whole 'scene' going on behind face value that most people don't really know about. I guess it makes you smarter & more knowledgable for understanding it, but the price to be payed is that the shine has worn off just a little once you peer into the darker underbelly of the hobby where money, misrepresentation, shady people, & 20 other undesirable aspects crop up & it ain't just about a train wizzing around under a tree any more. I guess that's our burden for taking our interest to the next level beyond the ordinary, every day toy train customer. Hobbiests carry this knowledge with them & a little bit of our innocence got left behind in the exchange. 

That has happened a few times to me, as well.

Train shows in general have been sparse in So Cal. I look forward to the Cal-Stewart meet every year. The attendance seemed way down. Aisles were not crowded. Some good deals could be found. When the meet was changed from Pasadena to Ontario, cost was the major factor. Pasadena was ok, but parking was lousy. IMHO Ontario was a better venue for a train show and most agreed the first year went extremely well. Attendance has diminished and I received various opinions as to why. Several sellers skipped Cal-Stewart to sell at the show in Nor Cal the same weekend. Much more sales/profit to be made even with the 8 hour drive each way. I ran trains both days and sellers started packing up at 11 on Sunday. Is it in the sticks? Not at all, but it is 30 minutes farther down the freeway. For me, train shows are few and far between, so I drive to everyone I can. It would benefit from better promotion and schedule it on a weekend when other shows are not going on. Wish I was within 1000 miles of York, I would make that drive in a heartbeat. Hope to see you next year at Cal-Stewart. Stop by the SP TTOS modular layout and say hi.

 

Bob

As buyers, we tend to love trains shows 'cause lots of folks shop solely on bargain pricing.  As sellers/dealers?  I'm not so sure.

 

You are correct though... in your observation that there is a TON of product out there.  More than could EVER be absorbed in the market.  So I completely understand why smart dealers at the larger shows try to set themselves apart from the pack, i.e., they differentiate themselves.  

 

Take York for example... Sidetrack Hobbies almost exclusively brings tinplate product to the show, even though they sell a full product line year round.  But why bring the whole line-up to a place like York, when your competitor is across the aisle selling the same item(s) for $5 less?     Instead, they've become pretty well-known as the "go to" dealer for new tinplate trains at York.

 

This past York, I also noticed Charlie Ro's display had an unusually large presence of S-gauge AF product... again, a somewhat unique offering in an otherwise O-gauge oriented show.  Even the big guys realize the pressure of competing head-to-head.  Where's the fun in that (as a seller)?  

 

Look... people tend to buy from people they like.  It's human nature.  But at train shows, the almighty dollar sign takes over, and buyers gravitate to the most inexpensive seller.  So you've gotta admire the dealers who mitigate that phenomenon... 'Cause I think we can all admit that if we only buy from the dealer who always sells at the cheapest prices at shows, we're doing a disservice to the hobby at large.

 

David

I visit with the owner of my LHS about every week. Sometimes they have complaints about what has been happening to orders, prices, etc. I find it all very interesting and enjoy hearing what they go through to operate the store. It's also pretty much a one man operation and sometimes he is there until the wee hours in the morning checking in new items, re-stocking or setting up seasonal displays. Many 12, 14, 16 hour days. It's a real eye opener. Now, every time I think it would be fun to have your own train store, it reminds me of what it really takes to operate one. I then quickly change my mind back to how happy I am that I can afford to purchase something there once in a while and then and just go home and enjoy it.

Me, too. I'm a fan of the 1975-76 American Freedom Train (having saw it in my hometow right before my 7th birthday) and you rarely ever see the HO Lionel set for the train. At a recent show, I counted 6 complete sets in the boxes!

 

Jumpin' catfish, you don't gotta deal with that.

I used to hit a hobby shop in PA when I was stationed nearby in the Army, and the owner used to go on and on about evil Walthers was. The last time I was in there (in 1998) was literally the last time because he started this nonsense with me (I'd heard the same spew every time I was in there) with a relatively packed store. I was on my way to Gettysburg that day and had hit the place just as it opened on a Saturday. I had a packed, tight schedule that day to get home in time for a date I had that night. So, I had little time for his griping.

To counter my 'slowly easing away' creep most people do to people like this, he actually walked around and then stood between me and the door. I then slightly snapped and said loudly, "Look, this is a retail business, I come here just to look at model train stuff and buy something when I want to. I realize many model rr places are run like clubhouses with the owner holding court but I'm in a hurry and if you think you're going to physically prevent me from leaving until I've endured one more moment of your insanity, you're out of your [bleep]ing mind. Now, stand aside, or you're about to get badly hurt."

This, accompanied by my best Clint Eastwood-ish squint.

The guy had no idea what to do, say or even think.

A moment or two went by with no sound at all (all the other customers were dead quiet, I assume listening to see what would happen next). I then leaned in a few inches and said, "NOW, Skippy." That wasn't his name, but you get the idea.

So did he.

Now, was this the best tactic? Nope, but I was being transferred far away the following month so I knew I was probably never going to be there again and I was sick of this drivel the last times I'd gone there. So, I could burn that bridge easily.

Do I regret it? Nope, not at all. Maybe he learned a lesson that day.

I've had people ask me to 'find' stuff for them, and I always ask for a deposit. You'd think I was asking for their first born. Hey, I gotta spend the money to find an item I didn't want, why do I have to accept all that risk?

Seems like what a pal of mine who used to sell high-end older cars told me, he said people would constantly ask him to hold onto some expensive classic car while they thought about it but would never commit to buy it. He said that lasted for the first couple of cars he ever showed and people would go out of their minds when he'd tell them it was staying on the lot and would be available to anyone if they 'tire kicker' wasn't prepared to commit to the buy.

Back in the 20th Century we had train meets here in Tampa at least once or twice a month. Now since ebay they are few and far. I even noticed wider aisles and no people backups in the aisles at York. Also the closed Halls.