Train table construction: Proper lumber and sheathing

OK ! Forgive me for staying on track, but I am enjoying the discussion about layout building as I am planning to start a new one soon.   I'm sure that some folks have built hybrids of Mianne and other methods.  I am looking at the use of L-girder with a Mianne base for the leg work.  I would appreciate any input or advice.  

Peace.

Earl

Earl -- the Mianne base is a great choice and the book mentioned is great for ideas. Good luck

It sounds like your construction experience could be making you err on the side of overbuilding. 2 x 6s? Maybe you are going to building the 5' x 9' with 4 legs and a 5' span.  I was a cabinetmaker and carpenter before that for a few decades, so here is my 2 cents.

1. The most important thing is that the wood is dry and doesn't have a lot of twist. Check a few to compare weight. Dry wood is a lot lighter. A 1 x 4 on edge is just about as good as a 2 x 4, and maybe better depending on the quality of the 2 x 4. You can find perfectly good #2 pine with few and small knots. I also built a lot of TV and theatre flats in my day and we used to whack the board on the saw table. If it shattered, it was no good.

2. Spacing and top depend on whether you are going to walk on it. (In my opinion, if you have to walk on a train table, you have not planned properly.  I would make it all within arms length)

3. If you use glue and screws or staples, you are basically building a half torsion box ( a hollow core door is a full torsion box) which adds a lot of strength.

My prewar table layout is 45" x 75" and portable, so lightness is paramount. The framing is 1 x 4 on 25" centers, and 5mm underlayment is glued and stapled to the top. On this 1" foam is glued with liquid nails and then covered with a cotton sheet glued down with white glue. The whole assembly is very light and rigid.

@Old Newbie posted:

In the mid-Atlantic area, poplar wood (aka "tulip" poplar because the leaves are tulip shaped) is relatively cheap and better than common softwoods.  Poplar is often used as a secondary wood in furniture.  It paints well but does not take other finishes.  Lowe's often carries it, Home Depot almost never has it.  You can usually find it in lumber yards that cater to furniture makers.

Home Depot has poplar by me. (NE PA), but you pay a premium for any hardwood at Lowes or Home Depot.

If you use Tulip Popular, plan on letting the wood relax for a couple of days after cutting to fit.  The stuff loves to twist out of shape after cutting.

There are choices for lumber, even if you use framing lumber.  White pine/fir a good choice, IMO. You may have to purchase in longer lengths.  My framing is 5 ft, I purchased 10 foot 2 X 4 material.     Hem(lock) fir tends to warp. IMO  Same applies to better grades of plywood.    Do your homework,  IMO. 

Anybody use LSL or engineered wood to frame your layout ? I ran across this today. Stud walls are built outa this stuff.  It's straight and stays that way. Not much higher than traditional lumber. Menard's sells it.

I am using birch plywood stripes that are 3 3/4 inch wide.  I will also use the plywood strip to build L legs. The tables will be pocket holed together and the boxes  bolted together into modular units. I believe these tables will be easy to dismantle and put back together when I eventually move.

@TrainHead posted:

I am using birch plywood stripes that are 3 3/4 inch wide.  I will also use the plywood strip to build L legs. The tables will be pocket holed together and the boxes  bolted together into modular units. I believe these tables will be easy to dismantle and put back together when I eventually move.

If you can post some pictures. I'd like to see how your tables turn out.

Mike CT,

You poor ignorant brute!  :-)  How dare you use 2x4 lumber, with double outside rim joists, plus 1/2 inch plywood to build a train table!   Don't you know that you are only suppose to use 1x2s and 1/4  inch mdf sheathing?   Don't you know that the "powers that be" have declared that all train tables must be built to be as light as possible, instead of as strong as possible? 

And, plainly, you didn't plan your layout well enough, since you are standing on your table.  Oh, the Horror!   If your table is too wide for you to easily reach the center with your hands,  don't you know that you are suppose to cut a square hole in the middle of the table and build a hatch to stick your head up through?

With a heavy table like that, how are you going to take it apart and carry it all around the neighborhood every weekend to show your friends?

My advice: You had better just start over.  :-)

Mannyrock

Manny,

I generally enjoy your posts but I have to agree this topic has gone sideways.   I have had the fortune to meet GRJ when I bought a transformer once.  His moniker here is in relation to his professional career which I have never read a discussion about on this forum.   

I respectfully suggest that your passion for what you do has blinded you a bit in some of your comments, particularly in reference to GRJ.  I recommend some humble pie and damage control.  People tried to give you honest feedback and you reflected in a way very unusual for this forum.

Respectfully,

Jhz563

@TrainHead posted:

I am using birch plywood stripes that are 3 3/4 inch wide.  I will also use the plywood strip to build L legs. The tables will be pocket holed together and the boxes  bolted together into modular units. I believe these tables will be easy to dismantle and put back together when I eventually move.

I'm a big proponent of pocket hole joinery when used appropriately.  It's unclear from your post as to whether or not you are using it on weight-bearing joints; if so, a suitable wood glue should also be used.  Using pocket hole joinery as a way to allow for future disassembly will lead to very weak joints.

We are all just one beggar telling another beggar where to find bread.

Since the original poster has raised the concern that any relatively minor lateral force will cause potentially catastrophic failure to a train table I wonder if anyone on this forum had experienced that failure?  As a point of reference I used the wescott book as a guide, table had been up for 20 plus years.  No need to reference house construction please.

Manny rock,

At this point in time you have a far more to LEARN than you do to TEACH.  Less than 2 weeks ago you posted the following question:

”What is an A Unit?”

@Mallard4468 posted:

I'm a big proponent of pocket hole joinery when used appropriately.  It's unclear from your post as to whether or not you are using it on weight-bearing joints; if so, a suitable wood glue should also be used.  Using pocket hole joinery as a way to allow for future disassembly will lead to very weak joints.

"Stuck on Glue Mortise and tenon, dovetail, and biscuit joints require glue-ups. This isn’t so with pocket hole joints, as the fastener acts as an internal clamp that obviates the glue-up. Glue might strengthen the pocket hole joint, but it’s not necessary."

I built my current 5x9’ layout on Lynn Westcott’s L-girder benchwork, as I have all my previously built layouts (I’m 73), and there’s been many through-out my life. I’m currently planning a 5x10’ expansion of that layout using Mianne benchwork. I don’t need it to be as strong as my roof! I also am a strong believer in cross-braced legs, with plywood gussets. Just my 2 cents.

@TrainHead posted:

"Stuck on Glue Mortise and tenon, dovetail, and biscuit joints require glue-ups. This isn’t so with pocket hole joints, as the fastener acts as an internal clamp that obviates the glue-up. Glue might strengthen the pocket hole joint, but it’s not necessary."

That information is correct as far as the pocket screws not needing to be clamped while the glue dries.  Beyond that, it's marketing fluff. 

Based on extensive experience with pocket joints, I would never use them without glue, especially if strength is required.  It's just a butt joint, which is inherently weak even with glue.  I've built numerous projects using pocket screws - ignore my experience at your own peril.

@necrails posted:

Since the original poster has raised the concern that any relatively minor lateral force will cause potentially catastrophic failure to a train table I wonder if anyone on this forum had experienced that failure?  As a point of reference I used the wescott book as a guide, table had been up for 20 plus years.  No need to reference house construction please.

When L-girder is done properly, the various parts work together to form a very stable unit.  I've built several layouts this way, and have never had a problem.

Saw a previous mention about using L-girder on top of Mianne benchwork.  I've never used Mianne, but from what I've observed it appears to be a well-engineered product and lots of people have gotten good results with it.  However, L-girder on top of Mianne strikes me as overkill and needless expense.  In fact, not attaching the plywood directly to the Mianne framework might reduce the strength of the unit.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I used 1/2" Baltic Birch multi-ply, it has better stability than most 3/4" standard plywood.  The guy that recommended it to me has professionally built many layouts, and I trust his judgment.  I started with the Mianne benchwork, and by the time all benchwork was complete, lateral stability is not any kind of an issue.  Yes, I can walk on it and I would challenge you to move it laterally without some friends to help.

Question for you, John:

What did you use to make the curved fascia on your layout? I am facing a bit of a problem now because, having moved recently, the custom-milled fascia that my contractor used on the layout in my former home did not hold up well (managed to get damaged) when the layout was moved to its new location. Since a number of curves are involved in the benchwork (old version and new), I am looking for something that I can use as a fascia material without having access to a woodworking shop, etc. (if possible).

Highly recommend the billiard table design.....can be substituted for various other uses

"the original poster has raised the concern that any relatively minor lateral force will cause potentially catastrophic failure to a train table".

From 3 decades of building, assembling, and operating modular layouts, minor lateral force is not an issue.  Individual modules, particularly those with pocket legs, are as wobbly as a newborn fawn, but when they are joined together into a layout, the whole is remarkably stable. The legs, typically 1-3/8" square balustrades, are mounted to 1x3s or 1x4s, sometimes with a single set screw.  A lot simpler and lighter than the construction approaches discussed on this thread.  We operate layouts where visitors push up up to and lean on the layout.  No problem, even when kids exert considerable lateral force.

Adding diagonals to legs at the corners of a layout should stop lateral movement.   Add more diagonals to middle legs if additional stiffening is needed.

@Allan Miller posted:

Question for you, John:

What did you use to make the curved fascia on your layout? I am facing a bit of a problem now because, having moved recently, the custom-milled fascia that my contractor used on the layout in my former home did not hold up well (managed to get damaged) when the layout was moved to its new location. Since a number of curves are involved in the benchwork (old version and new), I am looking for something that I can use as a fascia material without having access to a woodworking shop, etc. (if possible).

Alan, it's all chronicled in this ridiculously long thread, but I'll post the "Cliff Notes" version.

New Train Room Finally Getting A Layout!

The fascia is a two-layer affair supported by a zillion 2x4 blocks.

The two layers are both very flexible Lauan plywood, the first layer went on flush with the plywood edge, the second thin finish layer went on after the Homasote was down and trimmed.

The support blocks were all generously coated with Loctite PL3 construction adhesive and the bottom layer was applied.

The bottom layer was "stuck" in place and then the exact curve was adjusted for smooth flow, the adhesive bonds firmly, even with a 1/4" gap.  This allowed the curves to be close to perfect.

The Homasote was laid next and trimmed exactly to conform to the first layer of fascia.

Next the finish layer of fascia was buttered with the adhesive and clamped firmly to the bottom layer.  This layer was wider as it also covers the Homasote layer for a neat edge.

The extra layer clamped to the fascia is just to keep it totally flush with the bottom layer while the adhesive cures.

Here's the "final" product.

@Allan Miller posted:

Question for you, John:

What did you use to make the curved fascia on your layout? I am facing a bit of a problem now because, having moved recently, the custom-milled fascia that my contractor used on the layout in my former home did not hold up well (managed to get damaged) when the layout was moved to its new location. Since a number of curves are involved in the benchwork (old version and new), I am looking for something that I can use as a fascia material without having access to a woodworking shop, etc. (if possible).

Alan, wiggle ply or 1/8 masonite. You can also kerf the back of a thicker piece of ply to make it bend. The kerfs run most of the way through to the last layer that runs the same direction, obviously the short way. Time consuming bit it works. You will have to experiment with the spacing, depending on the tightness of the curve it could be 1/2"-1". Ideally they are spaced so when the piece is bent, they just close. Then you can put some glue in there when you wrap it.

@Mannyrock posted:

Mike CT,

You poor ignorant brute!  :-)  How dare you use 2x4 lumber, with double outside rim joists, plus 1/2 inch plywood to build a train table!   Don't you know that you are only suppose to use 1x2s and 1/4  inch mdf sheathing?   Don't you know that the "powers that be" have declared that all train tables must be built to be as light as possible, instead of as strong as possible?

And, plainly, you didn't plan your layout well enough, since you are standing on your table.  Oh, the Horror!   If your table is too wide for you to easily reach the center with your hands,  don't you know that you are suppose to cut a square hole in the middle of the table and build a hatch to stick your head up through?

With a heavy table like that, how are you going to take it apart and carry it all around the neighborhood every weekend to show your friends?

My advice: You had better just start over.  :-)

Mannyrock

Clearly this post was directed at me. My layout is put away every year by me alone, so lightness is important. If you are building a permanent layout and want to walk on it, obviously you need heavier materials. Build it however you want.

You are the one who implied that everyone else was doing it wrong. And by the way, I was a cabinetmaker in NYC for 20 years and after that a designer and builder of scenery for theatre and television for another 20, so I know something about wood. I have built many tables and decks and know the difference.

@gunrunnerjohn: That's some serious construction there!  I think you and I started our layouts at the same time...you're winning as far as I can tell. (I know it's not a contest, guys...just some fun banter).

As to the OP: Like just about everything in life, and as the old saying goes: There's a million ways for the Pope to skin a basketball in the woods"

Or something like that.

I don't doubt that @Mannyrock builds some tough-*** framework.  Mine is pretty heavy duty compared to the predicted use and loads, but it's what I'm familiar with and we got it done quickly.  I might have spent more time lightening it up if I had the calendar days and resources, but I was more keen on just keeping things moving.  I also have no doubt that some perfectly serviceable train tables can be built with 2x2's and a hammer.  If it holds up the trains and doesn't fall down before we die, then it's good, right?

Will,

It's all in good jest.  We are only talking about train tables here, . . . not each other's wives!

And, actually, based on the initial reply comments posted by folks a few weeks ago, I went with lighter than normal framing, using 2x3 stock as cross joists, in 4 foot spans, instead of my original thought of 2x4s.  (I just used 2x4s for the outer rims of the table.)

I would have gone with 1x4s as the interior cross joists, because as many people pointed out, they are really really strong for their weight.   But, the 2x3s are much easier to nail in or screw in at the headers and footers, since you have a nice 1.5 inch end thickness, instead of just 3/4 inch.  And, 2x3s cost exactly the same as 1x4s at Lowes.

A few folks got ruffled with my replies, but you may be surprised at how many LIKES I received on my replies by other members.  So, plainly there are two schools of thought here.

And, one of my main issues was, given that I have three rambunctious 5 year old grandsons, I had to make my table fairly bulletproof.  (Young boys have a very nasty habit of doing exactly what they are not suppose to do when you are not looking!)

Best to you,

Mannyrock

@Mannyrock posted:

Mike CT,

You poor ignorant brute!  :-)  How dare you use 2x4 lumber, with double outside rim joists, plus 1/2 inch plywood to build a train table!   Don't you know that you are only suppose to use 1x2s and 1/4  inch mdf sheathing?   Don't you know that the "powers that be" have declared that all train tables must be built to be as light as possible, instead of as strong as possible?

And, plainly, you didn't plan your layout well enough, since you are standing on your table.  Oh, the Horror!   If your table is too wide for you to easily reach the center with your hands,  don't you know that you are suppose to cut a square hole in the middle of the table and build a hatch to stick your head up through?

With a heavy table like that, how are you going to take it apart and carry it all around the neighborhood every weekend to show your friends?

My advice: You had better just start over.  :-)

Mannyrock

Mannyrock I found that you are exceptional at two things. Not knowing anything and stirring the pot! If you are so knowledgeable why do you ask questions and then rebuke  the answers. You remind me of a tomato. Might look good but it's not! Just ruins the rest in the general area. I have watched you do this several times now and watched people try to be nice but you evidently haven't learned anything.

@Will posted:

Alan, wiggle ply or 1/8 masonite. You can also kerf the back of a thicker piece of ply to make it bend.

In my case, it was indeed "wiggle wood" as Tom calls it.  The 3/8 sheet has three ply and the two thick outside plies run vertical to the table so it bends very easily.  It wrapped around this curve without any effort.  It is VERY floppy when you have a long piece of it.

Thanks. Mannyrock, no worries. I think the fact that there are so many different ways to make a train table shows that it's a pretty simple project. I look forward to seeing your layout.

Bast to you as well,

Will

@Will posted:

Alan, wiggle ply or 1/8 masonite. You can also kerf the back of a thicker piece of ply to make it bend. The kerfs run most of the way through to the last layer that runs the same direction, obviously the short way. Time consuming bit it works. You will have to experiment with the spacing, depending on the tightness of the curve it could be 1/2"-1". Ideally they are spaced so when the piece is bent, they just close. Then you can put some glue in there when you wrap it.

Thank Will (and John) for the replies. I believe Masonite (or thin ply) will do the trick. I will need to see if I can get the lumber dealer to cut a sheet into 5" wide, long strips. I've been told that big box dealers like Home Depot and Lowe's won't do custom cuts (I do not have a bench saw or shop), but perhaps the lumber guy at one of those places will take a modest bribe to help me out.

These discussions are always a delight.  Thanks all, Mike CT.    Most important advice,  A safety meeting every day.

A new wrinkle to the safety meeting.  Temperature check, and general appearance. Do you feel O.K.??. If not, time to go home. Most recent Habitat Home, I found myself working alone, hopefully a year from now, the world will be back to normal. IMO. Not a good idea to get sick on a volunteer project.  IMO.

It doesn't matter how you do a project, it does matter if you don't go home at the end of the day.  Hospitals are a PITA.

@Allan Miller posted:

Thank Will (and John) for the replies. I believe Masonite (or thin ply) will do the trick. I will need to see if I can get the lumber dealer to cut a sheet into 5" wide, long strips. I've been told that big box dealers like Home Depot and Lowe's won't do custom cuts (I do not have a bench saw or shop), but perhaps the lumber guy at one of those places will take a modest bribe to help me out.

I'm sorry you are not closer, as I would happily rip it for you. Do you have a circular saw, because that and a straight edge would do the trick. In the past, I have plunged a circular saw into a piece of plywood, screwed the saw to the wood, and turned it upside down. Voila! Table saw. Screw a strip of wood for a fence to it and rip away.

However I expect you could sweet talk a HD employee to do some rips for you, or find a local shop. If you use 1/8" masonite right over wood supports, I would suggest two layers. The first one nailed to the frame and table and the second held on with contact cement. That would give you a very smooth fascia.

Don't overlook Loctite PL3 adhesive to secure them.  I can tell you that I was a bit skeptical, but the fascia that is only secured with the PL3 ain't coming off without a chainsaw!  The adhesive is much stronger than the wood.  I had to take a piece off as it slipped and set out of place and I didn't notice, that was a serious job!

This glue job holds the base fascia layer on, and I can pull as hard as I can on it, and it doesn't budge.  The finish layer is secured to the base layer with the same stuff.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

In my case, it was indeed "wiggle wood" as Tom calls it.  The 3/8 sheet has three ply and the two thick outside plies run vertical to the table so it bends very easily.  It wrapped around this curve without any effort.  It is VERY floppy when you have a long piece of it.

It's worth noting that wiggle ply come with two orientations, depending on the direction you want to bend it. I know this from bitter personal experience, lol. In one configuration, it would bend into an 8' long column with a circumference of 4'. In the other, it would bend into a 4' long column with an 8' circumference. i hope this makes sense. You would want the latter config ripped the long way into 8' long strips.

If you do use it, it will be very coarse as the grain of outer ply will "open" from the curve. You could then cover it with 1/8" masonite, formica, or spackle the **** out of it.

Yep, this was ripped with the outside "thick" plies across the strip, only the narrow ply was lengthwise with the strip.  It easily folded around very tight curves on the platform.  It's all covered by 1/8" birch plywood, and the coarse grain doubtless was good for the adhesive to grip it.

You'll want lots of clamps on the top layer to insure it adheres well to the base layer.  The extra piece clamped on top was to insure the top layer of fascia stayed 100% in contact with the bottom layer.

FWIW, building this was a real education for me, delivered by a master carpenter.