Understanding The York Train meet

Ted Bertiger posted:

when something is priced right, it becomes to a point of insulting the person.

Last York I saw a excellent condition Lionel postwar metal caboose for only $32.. It even had a decent box. I handed the dealer two twenties, and he gave me back a ten. I said, "But it's $32.". He said I could have it for $30. I replied,"Please take this $2., so I can sleep tonight".

I am always ready to deal. My brother and I went a year ago for the first time in many years to sell. I dealt with everyone and had nothing ( almost ) left to sell on Saturday. Did I sell too cheap? I took a hint from Allan Miller ( no relation ); he had some Alaskan engines and stuff on the buy sell board years ago too cheap to be true. I bought it then and people buy it now. Since I don't "know" what the piece will truly bring I have often asked  what they ( you ) want to pay. It does push some folks over the edge but everyone who offered a price got what they wanted.

This year lots of 1960-1962 almost mint / test run postwar Lionel rolling stock I " rescued" from an auction where they didn't know how to handle this stuff. They did ruin a few pieces but not all of it. No idea where we will be. I LIKE selling stuff off at a reasonable price. Some folks are probably reading this and saying" That must be the guy I got all the _____ for next to nothing!"

I am all packed and raring to go.

Ernie

If you sell everything on your table, then it's time and effort well spent.  

I've never understood why some people will haul the same overpriced stuff from one meet to the next.  Also don't understand the folks who refuse to negotiate, and those who sit there and sleep.  In all of those cases, they're wasting their time and mine.  I get it if someone wants to go and socialize, but you don't need to buy a table to do that.

I've never understood why some people will haul the same overpriced stuff from one meet to the next.  Also don't understand the folks who refuse to negotiate, and those who sit there and sleep.  In all of those cases, they're wasting their time and mine.  I get it if someone wants to go and socialize, but you don't need to buy a table to do that.

You don't have to stay around their table either.

It is  not unusual for people to have a value set in their mind and refuse to move off of that price. It could be based on what they originally paid, or maybe something they saw someone else sell, or an old price guide. It does not matter to them that the market may be soft. What's the difference?
Some folks won't buy unless they get something off the asking price, even when the seller is offering a good deal. And some table holders won't dicker.

Mallard4468 posted:

 

I've never understood why some people will haul the same overpriced stuff from one meet to the next.

I'd guess that one reason is it gives dealers first dibs to get deals from each other before the doors open (yes I know this is not allowed...wink, wink). Also, some just like to display their vast treasures (you want it, but I got it). Then there is the "visiting with the other guys", "getting away from the wife for 4 days", "keeping busy in retirement", and what have you.

I'm now 75, All I know is that if I ever drag my stuff to York I'll be almost giving it away. 

I'd guess that one reason is it gives dealers first dibs to get deals from each other before the doors open (yes I know this is not allowed...wink, wink).

It wasn't that long ago that member table holders were not allowed to unpack their boxes before the show opened. We could bring our boxes to our tables, but were required to leave them unopened and go back outside with the non-table holders. When the show opened, we all went in together. So the sellers were unpacking as the buyers were moving in the aisles. Some folks called this a "shotgun start".

There use to be a post with a York Primer.  I think it may have even been in the featured topics.  What happened to it?

Chris

When the show opened, we all went in together. So the sellers were unpacking as the buyers were moving in the aisles. Some folks called this a "shotgun start".

Hot Water, the sellers probably will want to shoot me , but I think that is a cool and fun way to start something as big as that meet.

Be like a NASCAR Race.lol

Larry

Chris Underwood posted:

There use to be a post with a York Primer.  I think it may have even been in the featured topics.  What happened to it?

Chris

Here you go, link to the Spring 2017 version.

-Dave

Larry Sr. posted:

When the show opened, we all went in together. So the sellers were unpacking as the buyers were moving in the aisles. Some folks called this a "shotgun start".

Hot Water, the sellers probably will want to shoot me , but I think that is a cool and fun way to start something as big as that meet.

Be like a NASCAR Race.lol

Larry

Larry,

Then, you would have really loved it a few years before that.

At one time there were no assigned tables. At the bell, prospective sellers would make a mad dash to grab a table by placing a box on it, while buyers were also streaming in. The quickest got the best tables. It was only the blue hall back then. 

Jim

Jim Policastro posted:

Larry Sr. posted:

When the show opened, we all went in together. So the sellers were unpacking as the buyers were moving in the aisles. Some folks called this a "shotgun start".

Hot Water, the sellers probably will want to shoot me , but I think that is a cool and fun way to start something as big as that meet.

Be like a NASCAR Race.lol

Larry

Larry,

Then, you would have really loved it a few years before that.

At one time there were no assigned tables. At the bell, prospective sellers would make a mad dash to grab a table by placing a box on it, while buyers were also streaming in. The quickest got the best tables. It was only the blue hall back then. 

Jim

I have many years of flea market experience while living in Memphis, and I can tell you unassigned tables suck! And so do shotgun starts! That's when you are so busy unpacking and setting up that you aren't paying attention to legitimate buyers, and that's also when you would "lose" stuff because you were so distracted. Hopefully, theft isn't much of an issue at this show, but it was in the flea market! And in that market, the tables weren't even staged, you had to go pull yours off a tall stack and carry to your location within the buildings. That's when I dropped a 60lb table on my big toe - that didn't end well....

Glad to hear they're doing things right at York!

That's when you are so busy unpacking and setting up that you aren't paying attention to legitimate buyers, and that's also when you would "lose" stuff because you were so distracted. Hopefully, theft isn't much of an issue at this show,

We all seemed to enjoy the show. If there was an issue with thefts, it certainly was kept under wraps.
All the table holders were able to juggle setting up with selling at the same time.
The TCA used to be a private organization that required two sponsors to join.

It was actually great if you had quality items at reasonable prices. A crowd would gather as you were unpacking your items, and usually they would find a buyer even before they hit the table! Your table wouldn't really get fully setup until around 11 AM, but half your items would already be sold by that time! 

York was the place where you brought mainly your best items to sell/trade. As C.W. said, it was a meet for members of a private organization. 

Sure there were a few bad apples, but there was a lot of trust among members, and nearby table holders always looked out for each other.

The York meet was one of the benefits of membership to be able to buy/sell/trade in such an environment. Unfortunately, many here cannot understand that concept or believe that this benefit should be traded off in favor of making the meet a recruiting tool for the hobby.

Jim

Hey Dan.......I'm sticking to your original question "for post war what are the halls to visit"?   Look into the guys at the front of the WHITE HALL!  there are two guys that seems to have the most pristine postwar items and with probably P7 or better boxes.  Nope I am not  a schill for them........rather I have been going to York for 10 years now and have taken "mental notes" as to who has what.  Saw a baby Ruth boxcar that will probably turn into a MUST HAVE on account of my mom sold all our post war trains years ago............despite my protests.

Dan, 

For me the biggest draw for York, besides seeing people & friends in real life, is finding unique items in person.  Yes may can be found on line, but there are many individuals and seller with out a strong web presence.  It's less about finding "deals" which I think gets an overrated amount of attention.

If the absolute best price is desired, save the travel costs, and shop on line.  If you want to enjoy the experience, prioritize the halls by your interest, look for unique items and enjoy the time. 

Let's not forget one of the best parts of attending the meet....actually handling a piece, comparisons and getting a "real" look at condition.

richabr posted:

Still that "pesky" tax issue concerning member sellers that has been explained to death.

Yep, that deceased horse has been beaten into mush, and some still figure if ignored, the problem will go away.

Doug

richabr posted:

Let's not forget one of the best parts of attending the meet....actually handling a piece, comparisons and getting a "real" look at condition.

 

Plus run it on a test track in each hall.

Yep, that deceased horse has been beaten into mush, and some still figure if ignored, the problem will go away.

It's not that they think the problem will go away. They aren't table holders, so they don't care.
I notice that many of the comments made here regard the table holders as being there for the non-table holders entertainment.

When the show went to three days, the Eastern Division lost a lot of member table holders due to the additional expense of having to stay all three days. This was addressed by allowing members to have more than one table.
Require tax numbers and more members will drop their tables.

C W Burfle posted:

The TCA used to be a private organization that required two sponsors to join.

Dropping that requirement was a BIG mistake, in my opinion. Unfortunately, in recent years the TCA seems to have gone out of its way to make itself a significantly LESS-SPECIAL organization than it once was, and that is kind of a shame.

Allan Miller posted:

C W Burfle posted:

The TCA used to be a private organization that required two sponsors to join.

Dropping that requirement was a BIG mistake, in my opinion. Unfortunately, in recent years the TCA seems to have gone out of its way to make itself a significantly LESS-SPECIAL organization than it once was, and that is kind of a shame.

That rule became irrelevant when folks would sign for anyone without even knowing them.  Folks on this very forum would advertise to meet them at the gate and they'd sign for them.  How do you vouch for someone you've never met?

You know, I FORGOT about the original question ( where to find Post War ) too. Funny how we wander, digress, and get lost. At least at York we have arrows on the floor.

That rule became irrelevant when folks would sign for anyone without even knowing them.  Folks on this very forum would advertise to meet them at the gate and they'd sign for them.  How do you vouch for someone you've never met?

You can't.
I like to think that when I joined the TCA that people still took their sponsorship seriously.  A lot of folks on this board seem to think that professing to like trains automatically makes a individual a good person. But it isn't so.
But even with the irresponsible people signing for individuals they didn't know, there were still others who took the responsibility seriously. And some filtration was better than none.

A true – and somewhat amusing – story about the old two signature rule.

When I joined TCA I called the main office and a helpful woman there walked me through the process. When I asked about the signatures she said, “…no problem, let me fax you an app with two member signatures already affixed.” When I saw the form it looked like it had been copied about 50 times.

So much for that.

When I joined TCA I called the main office and a helpful woman there walked me through the process. When I asked about the signatures she said, “…no problem, let me fax you an app with two member signatures already affixed.” When I saw the form it looked like it had been copied about 50 times.

So they nullified the rule before officially revoking it.
The TCA's problem is the museum, it looses a lot of money each year. It takes a lot of membership dues to make up the deficit.

Here is some data suggesting why some changes to York were thought necessary:

johnstrains posted:

A true – and somewhat amusing – story about the old two signature rule.

When I joined TCA I called the main office and a helpful woman there walked me through the process. When I asked about the signatures she said, “…no problem, let me fax you an app with two member signatures already affixed.” When I saw the form it looked like it had been copied about 50 times.

So much for that.

It's true for some folks that don't have a LHS or other members near them that there should have been some kind of help from TCA National to help them get signed up but to me those would be special circumstances.  Many people getting vouched for had access to LHS and train clubs to help folks get to know them.  But then again even vouching for someone doesn't guarantee anything.

That's a 25% drop in registrations. You can believe TCA has been looking for ways to reverse that trend (and attendance has picked up a bit but not much in the three shows since - Apr 2016 showed 11,395).

Since the numbers have not improved, can we assume that dropping the two signature rule for membership has been ineffective?

Adding doll houses might improve the attendance, should we do that?

C W Burfle posted:

That's a 25% drop in registrations. You can believe TCA has been looking for ways to reverse that trend (and attendance has picked up a bit but not much in the three shows since - Apr 2016 showed 11,395).

Since the numbers have not improved, can we assume that dropping the two signature rule for membership has been ineffective?

Adding doll houses might improve the attendance, should we do that?

I thought we were having a carnival?

cplyons posted:

Here is some data suggesting why some changes to York were thought necessary:

York Statistics - Apr 2008: 14,567 total registrations

York Statistics - Apr 2015: 10,987 total registrations

That's a 25% drop in registrations. You can believe TCA has been looking for ways to reverse that trend ...

 

 

No fighting he numbers, but the EDTCA (as well as the TCA in general) may need to adapt to a smaller audience/membership the way retail giants are learning to deal with the fact that brick-and-mortar stores aren't always cutting it nowadays.

When Circuit City called it quits a few years ago, another company HH Gregg tried a go of it with a subset of Circuit City locations.   But I recently noticed HH Gregg has decided to close all of its stores in PA, with one nearby location already liquidating everything in the store.  A few days ago, I saw the list of 138 JC Penny stores closing this year, and two of them locally in southeastern PA are at very high-profile locations:  Willow Grove Park Mall and King of Prussia Mall.  Admittedly, malls have been known for being expensive real estate, but they also bring lots of foot traffic.  So to close two such high-profile stores in the Philly area is really saying something.

Online/Internet shopping has been very disruptive to the traditional retail business model, and we're seeing the same thing in our little corner of the world.  True, the TCA is also losing a piece of its membership due to aging demographics.  But folks simply don't "need" York in the same way they did years/decades ago.  I still love to visit York, but there's no denying that I could just as easily make a ton of train purchases throughout the year online at dealer websites, or here on the forum buy/sell board, or eBay (among other auction sites as well).  Our own forum sponsors run special discount sales multiple times throughout the year, so it appears that there's ALWAYS a sale going on at one time or another.  And there are only so many trains that one can buy.  

I give the EDTCA lots of kudos for trying to adapt in these challenging times.  But if their latest efforts don't achieve the desired results, we might be looking at York eventually becoming a once-a-year event.

David

C W Burfle posted:

Adding doll houses might improve the attendance, should we do that?

The original Greenberg Shows were called the Greenberg Train and Dollhouse shows. At the Philadelphia Civic Center, this doll section was about 1/4 to 1/8 of the floor space in one separate area. You could find some small furniture, wallpaper, rugs, etc. for layout interiors. 

That's a 25% drop in registrations. You can believe TCA has been looking for ways to reverse that trend (and attendance has picked up a bit but not much in the three shows since - Apr 2016 showed 11,395).

Since the numbers have not improved, can we assume that dropping the two signature rule for membership has been ineffective?

There's a difference between York registrations and overall TCA membership. According to the latest TCA National Headquarters news, membership dropped almost 11% in the 15 months following the dues increase in 2013. It is stated that membership is slowly increasing and is now at 23,354. As has been stated, the York meet is an Eastern Division TCA function controlled by them. The old 2 person rule had nothing to do with the York meet unless you were signing up on site.

 It is stated that membership is slowly increasing and is now at 23,354. As has been stated, the York meet is an Eastern Division TCA function controlled by them. The old 2 person rule had nothing to do with the York meet unless you were signing up on site.

Then can we assume that dropping the two signature rule is addressing the membership numbers, and there really isn't a need to open up the show to the public as a recruitment tool for the TCA?

According to the latest TCA National Headquarters news, membership dropped almost 11% in the 15 months following the dues increase in 2013.

The TCA folks anticipated some membership loss with the dues increase.

Dan Padova posted:

I have been to exactly one York meet, in my life.  That was last Spring.  I came away a bit dazed and confused.....more than usual.  I'm planning to attend the April meet, butI would like to have some rhyme and reason as to how to navigate, when I do.  

I hear terms like Dealers hall,Orange hall and so on.  As a post-war operator, which of these halls would be the ones to visit ?  Not that I wouldn't like to see them all, but it will be a day trip andmost likely will be Saturday.  

Dan, Considering what you have said and asked, especially considering that you intend going to York on Saturday, my advice would be as follows...

Start at the "Orange Hall" seen here named Lutz...

Try to park left-rear of here...or behind these buildingsor next to this garbage compactor alongside the Orange Hall...or in this field behind (east side) the Orange Hall (Lutz)...These spots will put you central to all the other halls, and starting in the Orange Hall will offer you plenty of variety and many aisles to wander and explore. IMHO.

FrankM.

I have to disagree  with moonson, I would go to the orange hall last because it is open till 4pm on sat. Since you are a postwar operator, I would start in the blue hall, then the silver hall, & on to the red hall, white hall, & then to the orange hall. Just my feeling. I'll probably get hell from Moonson for this answer. 

What you said makes sense, too, Eddie G, so perhaps between us we have offered Dan some concrete choices to consider. We're both hoping the best for him.

And I hope you have a very safe trip and the time of your life there.

frankM

Thanks all.  Sounds like you all have some good advice from being there in the past.  As the meet draws nearer the actual day I plan to attend may change.  being retired every day can be a Saturday.  Last year I went on Friday.  The traffic, as I got closer to York, was backing up, and I was still at least a half hour away.  I chalked it up to being a business day so commercial traffic   was still running heavy.  So that's the main reason I thought of going Saturday.  

Dan, I've have not had any traffic problems going to York, except for bridge or road work. Leaving York during 4-6 on a Friday can be a bit slow, as well as going through the Lancaster area.

Since you are retired, going on only a Saturday does not make a lot of sense to me.

Rt. 30 is bad almost any hour of the day.   I-83 not much better. 

Makes the arrival at the York Fairgrounds that much sweeter. 

83 has been pretty good for me over the years coming down from Harrisburg area. 

It's a 20-25 minute drive before getting to 30 probably, but I've never had any significant tie ups on either Friday or Saturday morning (and 30 is a short enough run from there to Carlisle ave that it's not too bad). 

I've been lucky on Thursday too, but if I stay up there on Thursday, I don't leave during rush hour, even if I am selling at my single table since it takes very little time to set up.

The absolute worst I remember was a time probably in the early 2000's when 30 was mostly ripped up for construction from the Lancaster area to York.  Took 462 that meet to try to avoid it, and it was slow and not direct at all (compared to 30 from Lancaster).

-Dave