I think part of the concerns could have been smoothed over with a better handling of 3985.
Tender swapping OK, done in steam era.
But 3985 does have her fans.
If UP came out and said something like we appreciate the support for 3985, but at this time UP had the chance to get a BB operational. Once that occurs, 3985 will be restoted.
Or if 3985 will not be restored, please be truthful and tell us...
Boy the old boy looks a 1000% better than when we saw it back in Pomona, looking real good guys.
pittsburghrailfan posted:...I think that the reason several of the professional steam-men on this forum (Hotwater, Rich Melvin, etc.) appear to be critical of the program is not that they want the Big Boy restoration to fail per say, but that they take issue with the methods that the manager is using to achieve operability. In their eyes, some of what Ed is doing appears contrary to sustainable (i.e. operating the locomotive for several years) or accepted practice in restoration...
Pittsburghrailfan, you have expressed my thoughts on this matter better than I could have myself! Thank you!
I am critical of this program not because of ego or jealousy, as some have accused me of. I am critical of the program because I don't like the man running the show and I disagree with his methods. Ed Dickens has shown his disdain for the other main line steam operators in the country many times. He thinks he knows better than the design engineers who developed 150 years of proven steam technology. He "improved" the boiler blow down system on the 844 so much that he almost destroyed the 844's boiler, plugging it with scale so bad I could not believe the images I saw of that damage. And it appears that he is about to do the same thing with the 4014! He has been accused (but not convicted) of some rather ugly personal actions in the past. He tried to blame many of his early failures on the former steam crew, led by Steve Lee. His on-the-road operating inexperience resulted in flattened drivers on the 844, which he tried to blame on a malfunctioning EMD-built MU box. He has been proven wrong every time.
The main line steam locomotive operators in this country are a very small fraternity. The groups involved have always shared information, technology, parts and even people. Ed has completely ignored every opportunity to join this valuable fraternity and has essentially told everyone in the fraternity that he is smarter than they are and will do his own thing, his way. This is not an example of a gracious team player...this is a guy on his own oil-fired, steam-powered ego trip.
It is for these reasons (and a few others that I won't bore you with now) that I cannot summon any interest or enthusiasm for this chrome-plated, bling-laden dog and pony show.
Hello good people, I am looking for photos or prints on the oil tender UP will use for the 4014, I want to make a cover to go on top of the coal tender Lionel made on the BTO version if it can be done.
Thanks
John
Rich Melvin posted:I am critical of this program not because of ego or jealousy, as some have accused me of. I am critical of the program because I don't like the man running the show and I disagree with his methods. Ed Dickens has shown his disdain for the other main line steam operators in the country many times. He thinks he knows better than the design engineers who developed 150 years of proven steam technology. He "improved" the boiler blow down system on the 844 so much that he almost destroyed the 844's boiler, plugging it with scale so bad I could not believe the images I saw of that damage. And it appears that he is about to do the same thing with the 4014! He has been accused (but not convicted) of some rather ugly personal actions in the past. He tried to blame many of his early failures on the former steam crew, led by Steve Lee. His on-the-road operating inexperience resulted in flattened drivers on the 844, which he tried to blame on a malfunctioning EMD-built MU box. He has been proven wrong every time.
The main line steam locomotive operators in this country are a very small fraternity. The groups involved have always shared information, technology, parts and even people. Ed has completely ignored every opportunity to join this valuable fraternity and has essentially told everyone in the fraternity that he is smarter than they are and will do his own thing, his way. This is not an example of a gracious team player...this is a guy on his own oil-fired, steam-powered ego trip.
It is for these reasons (and a few others that I won't bore you with now) that I cannot summon any interest or enthusiasm for this chrome-plated, bling-laden dog and pony show.
That’s great. Hopefully he has learned from his mistakes. In the past the UP steam shop policy was to just do whatever was needed to keep them moving with as little money as possible which was OK. Ed managed to convince his management to rebuilt 844 and then 4014 from the ground up. So far that seems to be working with 844. His new team seems to work well together so far. Time will tell with 4014. The next few weeks or even the next year will tell the story good or bad.
So how does 844s current blow down system differ from what you use?
The original 844 system took sludge from the lower muddling area of the boiler and piped it to the top, released steam and pressure on the top of the engine while separating the water and sludge and draining it to the track unpressurized. I assume this made it safer to do blowdowns while stationary in yards or at stations. So now it’s harder to do blowdowns while stationary? How does your system work that is different than 844s current system which I assume dumps pressurized water and steam directly to the track.
Thanks
I was taught the blow down from the bottom of the boiler was the best way to remove the sludge and gunk from the mud ring, and it made sense to me. Blow downs were done on trestles or remote sections always away from any bystanders. When we did it at the end of a run in the yard, we made sure any crew member on the ground was in the clear before pulling the lever. Worked for us at TVRM. Of course, monthly boiler washes were also done to further insure crud removal.
Tinplate Art posted:I was taught the blow down from the bottom of the boiler was the best way to remove the sludge and gunk from the mud ring, and it made sense to me. Blow downs were done on trestles or remote sections always away from any bystanders. When we did it at the end of a run in the yard, we made sure any crew member on the ground was in the clear before pulling the lever. Worked for us at TVRM. Of course, monthly boiler washes were also done to further insure crud removal.
I edited what I wrote above to make it more clear. Both the new and old 844 and 4014 systems remove sludge from the mud ring areas of the boiler
Tinplate Art posted:... Of course, monthly boiler washes were also done to further insure crud removal.
What I questioned earlier is if UP does a boiler wash after each run? It doesn't make anything "right", but it may be their strategy (right or wrong) to deal with keeping the boiler(s) cleaner.
Also, what water are they using? Is it soft water, domestic potable water, or what? From what I understand, UP had (has ?) notoriously bad water.
Tranz4mr posted:Rich Melvin posted:He "improved" the boiler blow down system on the 844 so much that he almost destroyed the 844's boiler, plugging it with scale so bad I could not believe the images I saw of that damage. And it appears that he is about to do the same thing with the 4014!
Ed managed to convince his management to rebuilt 844
Cause and effect?
Gilly@N&W posted:Also, what water are they using? Is it soft water, domestic potable water, or what? From what I understand, UP had (has ?) notoriously bad water.
Fwiw. Hot water has stated multiple times in the past that the "previous" UP steam crew had established proper water treatment procedures YEARS ago.
RickO posted:Gilly@N&W posted:Also, what water are they using? Is it soft water, domestic potable water, or what? From what I understand, UP had (has ?) notoriously bad water.
Fwiw. Hot water has stated multiple times in the past that the "previous" UP steam crew had established proper water treatment procedures YEARS ago.
He has also said Dickens changed the treatment plan so who knows other then the fact that 844 went down with a lime scale filled boiler only halfway through its 15 year cycle.
But the manner of posting negative questions and comments is still suggestive of a dislike of the man and it spills over to glee of any potential failure. Recall the glee being posted on the forum about the tire problem in Texas with the 844. Turned out that there was a mechanical issue with the diesel, not the crew running the 844. So why not simply post something like this, "I wonder why the sludge remover was removed?" Better yet, why not establish a relationship with the current steam crew and offer some suggestions.
WB47: WELL STATED! ☺
This photo was shot April 26, late in the afternoon. This is the first glimpse of 4014, peaking out. Photo shot by Stu Greydanus a member of the UP Steam Club.
Gary: Rail-fan & Model Railroader
Rich Melvin posted:...… It is for these reasons (and a few others that I won't bore you with now) that I cannot summon any interest or enthusiasm for this chrome-plated, bling-laden dog and pony show.
It's not a lack of interest or enthusiasm, it's years of persistent public attacks on the program by a small handful of folks. Insults, name-calling.
It's unfounded, unrealized public predictions of disaster concerning 844… that "would cause the end all steam operations around the country."
It's the public hatching of a plan on another website, years ago, to disrupt every discussion of UP's Heritage Program … to try to get Ed fired. Every time it's done, "it's equal to 10 written letters to UP's management," as one esteemed critic put it. It migrated to OGR.
I have no idea what the truth is. Because of the critics' literal obsession with Ed … because they feel the need to discredit every single thing UP's steam shop does … they play games with the truth. Often. Their interpretation of known facts on the ground, change over time, to accommodate their narrative.
It all makes me think that there is more to the story.
But, who cares? It's obvious that no one of importance gives a hoot what internet big-mouths like us say. UP's Steam Program is moving along. I hope UP's executives continue to see some value in this great asset they're building … whether for its historical significance, corporate goodwill, or because it's just plain fun.
Good luck to the guys in the steam shop. Hope not too many unforeseen gremlins pop up during these final days.
Happy Railroading, everybody.
trainroomgary posted:Peaking Out
This photo was shot April 26, late in the afternoon. This is the first glimpse of 4014, peaking out. Photo shot by Stu Greydanus a member of the UP Steam Club.
Gary: Rail-fan & Model Railroader
That must be 4014's original tender next to the borrowed tender from the challenger?
Kelly Anderson posted:Tranz4mr posted:My guess is that they will go easy on 4014 initially until they develop more confidence in her newly rebuilt systems.The questions that I see are;
- has the engine been steamed up and passed its FRA tests/inspections yet? Yes, back in February if I recall. Being informed so they can witness the hydro is the only requirement the FRA has to be invited to look at a locomotive in person before it runs.
- will they have a diesel or two along for dynamic braking, pushing etc. 844 should have plenty of power but braking probably better to have a diesel along for insurance. Probably required by corporate UP on their busy mainline . Two steam locomotives are their own insurance. The only reason for a diesel would be for dynamic braking on down grades, which is a legitimate need.
Have fun! Enjoy trains!
Thank you!
You're so right, Kelly.
This has got to be the most over-powered 9-car passenger train in recent memory.
It's like putting a 454 cu in, LS6 Corvette motor on a moped.
They'd better have that diesel in dynamics CLIMBING Sherman Hill if they want a big show out of the two steamers, especially running on the low-grade Harriman Cutoff.
Here’s a quick look at the number five axle side rods and cross head guides. Also, crank pins and bronze lateral wear liners. Photos shot by the Union Pacific Railroad.
Gary: Rail-fan & Model Railroader
To all who are on this forum that sees this post,
Ladies and gentlemen we are apart of history so do not through it away! What happens here can be tolled in the future when it is the 200th anniversary. In order to make things good we need to stop putting the things that do not bound us together as fellow railroaders, but to show the current and the next generations what our fellow Americans sacrificed to create history. Though there was a little over 600 people at the first ceremony there will be many more today than ever.
Know on the subject of the locomotives taking over the celebration. Over the years as you may know America is mainly built on freedom and symbolism. For example, this event is proof on how this is so important since we are still doing it. Also, think about the people who died making the transcon even when they were not born into this country. Finally, think about those who emotionally and finically sacrificed everything to build this railroad. If it wasn't for those who did things that was dramatically different and crazy sounding this country would not have been borne. Food for thought, for those who want to see the locomotives connected to the event can see the 844 as the no. 119 and the 4014 as the Jupiter.
For the negative side of things. As I have seen multiple times those who want to get attention will do anything to get it. For example, everybody knows that the big boy will run, so those who want attention will do the opposite and get attention in any way possible. I am not assuming I am just stating what happening. Also, for those who do not want to see UP to succeed then consider this. Those who want to ruin this event then you are saying that you want to ruin it for the younger generation. In short you guise are being selfish and making it where the younger generation gets a bad taste of the hobby and this event.
In conclusion, let's all see this as a great celebration and continue to have fun in this hobby as well as being apart of a once in a lifetime event.
UP your are making my dreams come true.
I dont think many of you grasp what rich said above. He does NOT want to see the program fail. In his mind Ed has shown inexperience and eragance, that is why he has a "lack of interest". No one ever said they wanted to see it fail. Now rich has been in this game for a long time (since the early 80's that I know of) maybe, just maybe he knows what hes talking about.
mark s posted:All critics of Ed Dickens, UP Steam Program, etc. should keep in mind how quickly superfluous steam programs can vanish.......witness CPR 4-6-4 #2816 of recent memory.
Also Norfolk Southern and Amtrak...
All it takes is a change in management and a steam program can go either way.
Rusty
Very nice, thank you TRAINMASTER04 
I think the Big Boy restoration is so amazing. 
My wife and kids are so excited too see you guys next weekend!
TRAINMASTER04, Doing some hand drawn water color art this week in my excitement too see this amazing machine. It’s still in progress, I don’t normally share my stuff in progress; how can I hold back my enthusiasm and excitement a dream since I was a small child in Iowa to see a Big Boy alive 
Pencil, gouache water color on Bristol board
Nice Erik !
Erik C Lindgren posted:
TRAINMASTER04, Doing some hand drawn water color art this week in my excitement too see this amazing machine. It’s still in progress, I don’t normally share my stuff in progress; how can I hold back my enthusiasm and excitement a dream since I was a small child in Iowa to see a Big Boy alive
Pencil, gouache water color on Bristol board
WOW!!! Thanks very much for sending me this. Can't wait to see it finished! Keep up the good work.
pittsburghrailfan posted:Notice that, in the announcement for the CNW event that Trains reported on, the only firm detail was that UP 1995 would be there.
I don’t mean to hijack. I’ve tried googling to see what this means. What, where, and when is the CNW event?
Sam Jumper posted:pittsburghrailfan posted:Notice that, in the announcement for the CNW event that Trains reported on, the only firm detail was that UP 1995 would be there.
I don’t mean to hijack. I’ve tried googling to see what this means. What, where, and when is the CNW event?
wb47 posted:But the manner of posting negative questions and comments is still suggestive of a dislike of the man and it spills over to glee of any potential failure. Recall the glee being posted on the forum about the tire problem in Texas with the 844. Turned out that there was a mechanical issue with the diesel, not the crew running the 844.
"Mechanical issue with the diesel?" Please ask Rich or Jack about the Texas incident. Both of them have decades of experience with the MU box. I believe Jack may have been part of the team that designed it. I apologize, but I had to respond to this statement.
I agree with Rich. I hope the UP program succeeds, but the leadership had been a problem.
Photo shot today, April 27th. Photos from David Burritt’s post on the Official Union Pacific Steam Club Page. Shared via Facebook procedures.
Gary: Rail-fan & Model Railroader
Tinplate Art posted:KELLY: THANK YOU for that cogent and informative summary of that diesel/steam incident. Apparently, train software has issues like the Boeing problems, but without the tragic results!
Yessir...cogent, informative and incorrect.
Kelly has forgotten that several of the original steam crew members were there and witnessed the event. He may also have forgotten that the Pilot Engineer, along with the other observers, all stated exactly what happened, i.e. Ted (the engineer running the 844) simply forgot to throttle off the MU’ed diesels. When the train did not slow down as expected, Ed went over to the engineer's side, panicked and threw the engine into reverse while it was still moving forward! This locked up the drivers and they slid to a stop, flattening the wheels. There was no information logged in the diesel units’ computers that indicated any bug in the software. On the contrary, the logged computer information showed that the diesels did exactly what they were told to do. They did not idle down because the MU box was still set in the Run 5 throttle position.
Mr. Dickens then blamed the EMD MU box. The UP Mechanical Department ran with that story and took it to the EMD Engineering Department. When the supervisor of the Electrical Control Group at EMD saw Hot Water's name on the correspondence and the original drawings, he called Jack to assist in the investigation. EMD found that nothing was wrong inside the MU Control Box, and that information was provided to the UP mechanical department. At that point, Mr. Dickens changed to a different story. This is not how a man of integrity handles such a situation.
Kelly, I hope Ed never stops suddenly. If he does, you may need some minor surgery...
Regarding my personal position on this, let me be absolutely clear on several points.
RICH: THANK YOU for.. " the rest of the story".
Tinplate Art posted:WB47: WELL STATED! ☺
A big ditto here also.
Sorry to ask this question but what happens at the steam shop with a diesel locomotive?
trainroomgary posted:Meet the 4014’s Steam Crew……
Photo shot today, April 27th. Photos from David Burritt’s post on the Official Union Pacific Steam Club Page. Shared via Facebook procedures.
Gary: Rail-fan & Model Railroader
My question is what number will it wear? None of the images I’ve seen on the social media’s have 4014 anywhere on it.
Southern6482 posted:trainroomgary posted:Meet the 4014’s Steam Crew……
Photo shot today, April 27th. Photos from David Burritt’s post on the Official Union Pacific Steam Club Page. Shared via Facebook procedures.
Gary: Rail-fan & Model Railroader
My question is what number will it wear? None of the images I’ve seen on the social media’s have 4014 anywhere on it.
What if it’s actually 3985 and we have all been taken as fools?!
In all seriousness, they may have just not finished painting and applying numbers to the loco.
The numbering on the cab is one of the finishing touches. Also, in an earlier picture of the pilot of the locomotive the number plate and number board clearly say 4014.
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bw...igshid=152js30uzca4l
All steamed up! And listen too that whistle
Erik C Lindgren posted:https://www.instagram.com/p/Bw...igshid=152js30uzca4l
All steamed up! And listen too that whistle
Now I'm excited.
pittsburghrailfan posted:Erik C Lindgren posted:https://www.instagram.com/p/Bw...igshid=152js30uzca4l
All steamed up! And listen too that whistle
Now I'm excited.
That whistle gave me a tickle and a big smile"WONDERFUL"
another link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4Hv7_Z4ypA
Enjoy
There is a video on the UP steam Facebook page of the crew in the cab running the steam whistle for the first time - giving it one heck of a work out.
I get both sides of the issue going on up in these pages. But, that video and that whistle give me chills - drama or no...
I wish the UP the best in getting that ol’ boy moving into the public light.
Ben
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