FORMER OGR CEO - RETIRED posted:

Using this old air brake system makes no sense to me at all.

Unless it matches your other old number 8 brake systems in your other locomotives and you have an adequate stock of extra parts. 

Headline correction

Gary: Rail-fan & Model Railroader

I'll be honest here from a neutral look at this venture taking out emotion and other issues and just looking at the factual evidence unrelated to specific people in or out of the UP organization.

UP wanted for whatever reason (not debating this as it's irrelevant to the point) to restore a Big Boy.  There are many logistical and financial issues with undergoing this.  There are also to cost paths.

The first cost path was the restoration of the BB to oil fired with a full conversion of all systems.  This would require manufacturing and procurement of all components with a cost likely well into the 10's of millions of dollars territory.

The second cost path as to gut usable components out of a successfully operating and very similar 3985 to convert and operate the BB.  This path significantly reduces cost, time, and I believe most significantly risk to the venture.

We all know which path as chosen which brings me to my main point.  The issues with the first path still exist if 3985 is to run again.  There is also a compounded cost factor of operating not 2 but 3 steam locomotives for a company which is currently going through major cost reduction projects across the line.  While operating even one steam locomotive by a class 1 RR is an anomaly, 3 is like a unicorn with two of those being large articulateds more like the mythical chimera.

From non emotional standpoint looking from the outside, one can see why as an organization UP would restore and operate in heritage what was their largest most powerful steam loco ever, one of the most powerful in the world ever, and will be the largest and most powerful steam loco in operation in the world.  This brings me to my conclusion and prediction of two scenarios.

Both scenarios are that 3985 does not run again and instead is put on display somewhere with the 4014 tender repainted to 3985.  

Scenario one includes running the BB mostly as a show using diesel power as the real motive behind it.  This would greatly reduce operational cost, maintenance, and risk.  844 may or may not be run as often and will double head for big events.

Scenario two is much like one using diesel power however 844 gets quietly sidelined (basically retired) but kept in operational condition just in case of BB issues or failure.  In this scenario 844 could come out as a BB stand in but again utilizing diesel for the work.

From what I see I have doubts as to whether to purpose of converting to oil was for full operation, or more because it was easier to source and fire in a way to create a show.  This plays into a lot of what's seen in the process.

I haven't heard yet, but anyone know if the diesel MU stand will be installed and operational?

Watch history roll by, from Cheyenne. A video from Ed Dickens, Cheyenne.

Just two short weeks from today, Union Pacific's historic steam locomotive, Big Boy No. 4014, will be revealed to the public. After five years of painstaking refurbishing, this beauty is going to be a sight to see! Here's a look back on how far it's come.

Source: Union Pacific Steam Club, shared via Facebook procedures. Production by: Travelwyoming.com

This is the best video from the Steam Club that tells the complete history of the Big Boys & Heritage  Operations at Cheyenne, Wyoming. 

Take a look, you will not be disappointed.

Gary Rail-fan & Model Railroader

Where is HOTWATER?

Ok , just wondering. Both sides are interesting to me.

TexasSP posted:

From what I see I have doubts as to whether to purpose of converting to oil was for full operation, or more because it was easier to source and fire in a way to create a show. 

The benefits of firing with oil versus coal are numerous.

Oil burners don't generally start fires along the right of way like hot embers from coal fires...

smd4 posted:

TexasSP posted:

From what I see I have doubts as to whether to purpose of converting to oil was for full operation, or more because it was easier to source and fire in a way to create a show. 

The benefits of firing with oil versus coal are numerous.

Understand, however my point was in support of my statement looking at this from an outsider and just weighing the business side of it.  Businesses tend to focus on cost, value, and risk.  Thinking of those, it makes more sense for it to look and sound like a steam locomotive than anything else.  There is also the factory of the person who was hit by 844.  UP's fault or not, it has definitely had an impact on the steam operations and how they are managed corporately with a heavy dose of the legal departments say.

TexasSP posted:

smd4 posted:

TexasSP posted:

From what I see I have doubts as to whether to purpose of converting to oil was for full operation, or more because it was easier to source and fire in a way to create a show. 

The benefits of firing with oil versus coal are numerous.

Understand, however my point was in support of my statement looking at this from an outsider and just weighing the business side of it.  Businesses tend to focus on cost, value, and risk.  Thinking of those, it makes more sense for it to look and sound like a steam locomotive than anything else.  There is also the factory of the person who was hit by 844.  UP's fault or not, it has definitely had an impact on the steam operations and how they are managed corporately with a heavy dose of the legal departments say.

The dynamics of a project like the Big Boy don't necessarily follow the standard rules, since this is done out of goodwill and marketing value rather than generating direct profits, so making the engine an oil burner isn't so much about the bottom line per se, but about things like practicality and ease of use given this is really more  a giant ongoing PR project than a 'real' revenue project. 

I suspect using oil was more of a practical thing, you can deliver it via tank truck, they can use a wide variety of fuels (anything from waste oil to diesel (which they just might have some around to heating oil to food oil), are less labor intensive, I suspect easier to fire up or shut down, put out less pollution than coal, and based on what I know of coal fired boilers of other kinds versus oil, lot less maintenance as well. One of the reasons I recall they used coal on the original big boy was the routes it was running were in coal country, so fuel was local,plentiful and cheap, I don't know if you factor in the cost of the fuel and fuel efficiency if coal or oil comes out ahead, but oil is definitely these days more practical to use IMO. 

"From what I see I have doubts as to whether to purpose of converting to oil was for full operation, or more because it was easier to source and fire in a way to create a show."

 This is nothing new. UP 3985 ran on oil for 25 years....

And it created quite a show under full operation:

( Having said all that. These days, I don't think any other restored steam locomotive is run balls out like NKP 765)

429 Replies.  Is there a CliffsNotes version for those of us not in the know?

What seems to be the issue with all of the doubters, Is it because they (UP) are Obviously having to use more modern parts as original parts are no longer available or is it because they are allegedly borrowing parts from 3985??

Wow - 143 cars (as claimed by the caption on the video) and nary a diesel in sight ('cept for the oncoming train)!  Talk about putting on a show - wonder who convinced UP to put the 3985 solo on a revenue freight.   So much for modeling a "consistent" era -- articulated steam and double stacks -- the latter first used in 1977 - 20+ years after the steam era.  I don't feel so bad with the mish-mash of cars and locomotives that I run on my layout...

Reportedly the largest "borrowed" item from 3985 is its oil fuel tender.  With time being tight borrowing a nearly identical tender seams to be a smart move that can be reversed later.   Comments posted on the trainorders.com forum support the proposition that when time and resources permit UP can convert 4014's coal tender to oil by fabricating a drop in tank using existing plans.   I recently joined trainsorders.com in order to more closely follow events related to 4014 and the movement of it and 844 to and from Ogden.   The negative posts about the UP Steam Program manager are quite more hard edged on that forum than on this one - and come from quite a few members.  I waded through all the posts trying to better understand what issues are technical - vs. past history based. At this point I only care that the UP program (and other steam restorations) continue to move forward for the generations of railfans behind us.

There are only 11 days left until 4014 is scheduled to depart Cheyanne for the first leg of the journey to Ogden - and as of today it still hasn't left the shop for a break-in run.  I'm getting worried.  As with many of todays mainline steam excursions 844 and 4014 will be trailed by a diesel - apparently for dynamic braking on downgrades - and as insurance in the case of a breakdown.   I know a 3 generation family flying out to Ogden next week to witness the events.  My wish is that the  young boy and thousands of  spectators get to experience one of the worlds iconic locomotive coming in to town under steam - as opposed to being under tow.  

RickO posted:

Having said all that. These days, I don't think any other restored steam locomotive is run balls out like NKP 765.

Ya mean like this?

I was running the 765 here. Throttle is on the roof. Reverser is in the corner. Almost stalled. And no diesel.

Or this...

You won't hear anything like this from the 4014...

richs09 posted:

Wow - 143 cars (as claimed by the caption on the video) and nary a diesel in sight ('cept for the oncoming train)! 

Big deal.  IRM's tiny little Russian Decapod walked away with 135 hoppers.  Granted they were empties, but still at 2900 tons and 7200 feet of train...

Rusty

Rusty Traque posted:

richs09 posted:

Wow - 143 cars (as claimed by the caption on the video) and nary a diesel in sight ('cept for the oncoming train)! 

Big deal.  IRM's tiny little Russian Decapod walked away with 135 hoppers.  Granted they were empties, but still at 2900 tons and 7200 feet of train...

Rusty

You mean this?

https://youtu.be/-q39OEODpsA

Rusty Traque posted:

richs09 posted:

Wow - 143 cars (as claimed by the caption on the video) and nary a diesel in sight ('cept for the oncoming train)! 

Big deal.  IRM's tiny little Russian Decapod walked away with 135 hoppers.  Granted they were empties, but still at 2900 tons and 7200 feet of train...

Rusty

Ship It on the Frisco!

It may not be a big deal for the powerful east coast engines to pull this, but 143 cars, 7600 tons, 8400 feet, and topping archer hill at 35mph, 65mph on the flats is pretty good in my book. I think max speed of a challenger is 70 mph, they were getting it that day.

Erik C Lindgren posted:

Unless the smoke fluid is coal flavor!

SPSF posted:

429 Replies.  Is there a CliffsNotes version for those of us not in the know?

What seems to be the issue with all of the doubters, Is it because they (UP) are Obviously having to use more modern parts as original parts are no longer available or is it because they are allegedly borrowing parts from 3985??

No CliffsNotes, just an observation after following UP Steam out of Cheyenne from the Denver metro area for 25 years.  I chased, rode steam excursions and knew some of Steve's crew.

When I started following UP Steam, Steve Lee was head of the Steam Department.  Ed Dickens worked under Steve for a while and took over the Steam Department when Steve left.  Steve and Ed differed on how the steam program should be managed.  As far as I know, none of Steve's crew is working for Ed and they did not part on good terms.

Ed should get credit for ignoring the sour grapes and keeping a lid on his whole crew.

That should read Ed worked under Steve Lee for awhile until Ed was fired from the Steam Program. When Lynn Nystrom passed away Ed finagled his way back into the Steam program. Steve Lee was promoted  director of the Steam Program and retired shortly after. 

https://www.up.com/heritage/steam/schedule/index.htm

Now the 844 is leaving with 4014? It doesn't seem like UP has a whole lot of trust in the big boy. 

Steve_611 posted:

Now the 844 is leaving with 4014? It doesn't seem like UP has a whole lot of trust in the big boy. 

I think the steam shops backs are against the wall and need all the time they can get to make 4014 operational. They couldn't spare the crew to operate 844 separately ahead of time as was the original plan. Logistically this makes sense but does cause some worry. 

I swear, they'll be doing their first steam up under power (let alone the first post-restoration "Break in" run) to Ogden for the 150th anniversary at the rate they're going.

This reminds me of RDG 2101 on the Freedom Train. I've read that the paint was still wet when they coupled it to the train for the first time to start the tour.

p51 posted:

I swear, they'll be doing their first steam up under power (let alone the first post-restoration "Break in" run) to Ogden for the 150th anniversary at the rate they're going.

This reminds me of RDG 2101 on the Freedom Train. I've read that the paint was still wet when they coupled it to the train for the first time to start the tour.

It made me think of that as well! 

I’ve stayed out of this thread, deciding to just read along as it progresses but I have to add this.  1309 is a prime example of never schedule any trips until the the rebuild is complete, fully tested, with a full break in run.  Time is a ticking.

Uh-oh. The 844's April 27-28 runs are now cancelled? And the 844 will now "doublehead" with the 4014 to Ogden on May 4?

Reading between the lines to get "...the REST of the story..."  (as Paul Harvey used to say), what that really means is that the 4014 will be towed by 844 and pushed by a diesel.

Yeah...that will be exciting...

FORMER OGR CEO - RETIRED posted:

Uh-oh. The 844's April 27-28 runs are now cancelled? And the 844 will now "doublehead" with the 4014 to Ogden on May 4?

Reading between the lines to get "...the REST of the story..."  (as Paul Harvey used to say), what that really means is that the 4014 will be towed by 844 and pushed by a diesel.

Yeah...that will be exciting...

Fingers crossed - I'll be there to see what really transpires.

This is what their mailing stated:

Union Pacific Steam Club Update No. 6 - Apr. 24, 2019

The Union Pacific Steam Team is busy making final preparations for the May 4 christening of the Big Boy No. 4014 in Cheyenne, Wyoming. Final touches on its paint job are being applied and the last necessary tests are being conducted.

To ensure the Big Boy is ready for its big debut, No. 844's whistle-stop tour that was scheduled for this Saturday and Sunday, April 27-28, has been cancelled. Instead, No. 844 will double-head with No. 4014 from Cheyenne to Ogden on May 4 after the 9:30 a.m. MT christening ceremony.

Christening?  That is another term for a Baptism.  Now, is that the term when they break a bottle of champagne on a ship?  To me, iteresting use of a term.

RickO posted:

 

( Having said all that. These days, I don't think any other restored steam locomotive is run balls out like NKP 765)

 

Go on Youtube and look up Reading & Northern #425. You're welcome! 

Gotta do what ya gotta do to meet deadlines. She'll be quite a sight to see in 10 days if someone doesn't get break-in footage before then. 

bmoran4 posted:

Fingers crossed - I'll be there to see what really transpires.

I truly hope you have a good time.

I'll be at least 1,000 miles away from that dog and pony show.

FORMER OGR CEO - RETIRED posted:

Uh-oh. The 844's April 27-28 runs are now cancelled? And the 844 will now "doublehead" with the 4014 to Ogden on May 4?

Reading between the lines to get "...the REST of the story..."  (as Paul Harvey used to say), what that really means is that the 4014 will be towed by 844 and pushed by a diesel.

Yeah...that will be exciting...

Or Chris Carter's line:  THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE, from the X-FILES!

FORMER OGR CEO - RETIRED posted:

I'll be at least 1,000 miles away from that dog and pony show.

LOL!

That's a good one, RickO!