An update from the Union Pacific Steam Team, about one hour ago.

Source: Union Pacific Railroad • Cheyenne, Wyoming

Gary: Rail-fan & Model Railroader

KansasMike posted:

EBT Jim posted:

Casey Jones2 posted:

Look for the paperback version...I paid $30 for mine.

Yup …. they pop up once in a while for that money. I got one. On eBay, not the used book sellers at Amazon, they often want $700, or more (plus 3.95 shipping, lol)

There is currently a paperback one on Abebooks for less than $30.

That's where I got my copies of Big Boy and either Challenger or 800's (one was off eBay but I can't remember which).  Abe Books has great prices and great customer service.

trainroomgary posted:

An update from the Union Pacific Steam Team, about one hour ago.

Source: Union Pacific Railroad • Cheyenne, Wyoming

Gary: Rail-fan & Model Railroader

Which tender is that? Is it actually 4014’s or is it 3985’s?

Were they intending on filling 4014's tender with dirty water?

Rusty

Water treatment hasn't been a strong suit with this current regime so you never know ....

Rusty Traque posted;

"This will ensure UP 4014 receives clean water at all times..."

Were they intending on filling 4014's tender with dirty water?

Rusty

There was some sort of "issue" involving dirty water wasn't there? I'll let Hotwater handle it from here.

Judging by the fact that the paint doesn’t look all that new, and assuming 3985 already has this, I’ll say it’s 4014’s tender. But I think either Hot Water or Kelly would know the real answer.

Back in the day, UP had extensive water treatment towers along the overland route,  those are now gone.  The last time I saw the 4-8-4, I believe there was a water treatment car in tow. I would assume the same protocol.

It is 3985's tender. The crew doesn't have the time to even start 4014's.

It wasn't uncommon for the Union Pacific to use some tenders interchangeably.  The centipede tenders built for the Big Boys and Challengers were no different.  Who really cares which tender is used?  It's just a tool and there's a job that needs to get done.

The Union Pacific Historical Society's 'The Streamliner' Vol.22 No.3 has a wonderful article THE TENDER BEHIND by Gordon McCulloh and James L. Ehrnberger with many of Mr. Ehrnberger's photos.

Another reference from www.steamlocomotive.com/types/tenders gives a nice description of the some of the differences between the 25-C-1 through 25-C-5 tenders.  They also stated that "Adding a little to the confusion for many about the Big Boy tenders was the fact that 25-C-1 and 25-C-4 tenders were completely interchangeable and were traded between both groups of Big Boys for convenience."

I Recognize there is difference between a statement like that and the reality of using a Challenger 3985's oil tender (which I'm pretty sure was taken from the #3977) instead of the 25-C-1 Coal tender that is likely on the 4014.  I don't see it as anything impossible.

However, as I think Hot Water had stated somewhere earlier, his experienced opinion is that a bigger obstacle would be the trouble shooting and shakedown required for the proper oil firing of the Big Boy.

I have no skin in the game on the current Steam manager, personally I don't care about the politics.  Sounds like mistakes were made and disagreements on judgement but the fact is..... he is the one making this happen.  I just want results. I'm no longer interested in blame. I'm interested in solutions.  If using 3985's tender will save time for the excursion then I'm all for it.  So long as there aren't any major F-UPs, I would hope that any lessons learned from using it short term will lead to better decisions being applied to the oil conversion of the 4014's tender later if that is their plan.  

The final fate of 3985, well...…. people will always need something to argue about.  Don't let the perfect get in the way of the good.  I'm looking forward to seeing a Big Boy actually steam under power.  

When they converted #3985 to oil they just took the the oil bunker from #3977. They didn’t do a tender swap. 

Ok, so 3985's 25-C-3 coal tender was converted using 3977's oil bunker. 

I just learned something. Thanks Spoony! Another example of why I enjoy the Ogaugerr Forum.

This photo is from The Official Union Pacific Steam Club, on Facebook

This is a description from the photographer with a question. He states; “this was photographed a few days ago and it hasn’t been modified in any way.”

I also found the link provided by: Witz 41 very helpful • Another reference from www.steamlocomotive.com/types/tenders 

Source: Union Pacific Railroad • Cheyenne, Wyoming

Gary: Rail-fan & Model Railroader

Actually the tender for 4014 came from 4015. 

Nobody has posted this so figured I would 

Posted by Scott G online a few days ago:

 "Much of what has been written about the 4005’s brief time as an oil burner speaks of problems with uneven heating in the firebox and broken staybolts. The Steam Crew has made an important change during the 4014 restoration that was not part of the 4005’s configuration when it burned oil in the 1940’s. When the UP converted a steam locomotive class from coal- to oil burning, they removed the firebrick arch and the circulator tubes that supported it. In the case of the FEF Northerns like the 844, that meant the arch tubes were removed. In the case of the large Challengers like the 3985 and the 4005 Big Boy, they removed the security circulators. Security circulators were large tubes that connected the water spaces along the side of the firebox with the water space above the crown sheet. They had several functions, one of which included promoting water circulation between areas filled with relatively cool water and the area above the crown sheet, where the most vigorous boiling occurred. During the steam era on the UP, oil burning power did not use security circulators in the firebox. This practice was not unique to the UP. Southern Pacific cab forwards also didn’t use circulators (you can see this in the firebox of the SP 4294 cab forward preserved in Sacramento—no circulators in its oil-burning firebox). On the other hand, the Santa Fe did use a type of circulator tubes in its large oil burning Northerns and 2-10-4’s. For the 4014’s conversion from coal to oil firing, the Steam Crew elected to keep the security circulators in the firebox to improve water circulation, and therefore reduce the uneven heating of the crown sheet that can excessively strain the boiler structure and lead to broken staybolts and leaks. You can see the 4014’s circulators in the photo captured during an Ed Dickens update video. Compare it to the photo of the 844’s firebox, which has no circulators or arch tubes."

Casey Jones2 posted:

Nobody has posted this so figured I would 

Posted by Scott G online a few days ago: ….

As in Scott George? Where was this? Their Facebook page?

Thanks for posting,  C. Jones.

Jim

Official Union Pacific Steam Club • March 29. 2019

From Ed Dickens and the UP Steam Team: Here are a few photos of our recent progress: First is the massive Nathan 4000 Live Steam Injector we posted the other day; next is two of our four large, rebuilt piston valves with new rings, just like we made for the UP 844 in 2017. Finally, the cab signal and valve equipment rack. Also of note: We have taken our first load of fuel oil for the UP 4014!

A quick reminder for everyone to share with your friends: Safety always is our primary concern. An increasing numbers of unauthorized people have been entering the rail yard and walking around the property. This not only is trespassing, it's dangerous and distracts members of the Steam Team from doing their work. While we sincerely appreciate the level of excitement and anticipation, please give us the space we need to complete this special project

Gary: Rail-fan & Model Railroader

AmeenTrainGuy posted:

trainroomgary posted:

 

A quick reminder for everyone to share with your friends: Safety always is our primary concern. An increasing numbers of unauthorized people have been entering the rail yard and walking around the property. This not only is trespassing, it's dangerous and distracts members of the Steam Team from doing their work. While we sincerely appreciate the level of excitement and anticipation, please give us the space we need to complete this special project

It's pretty messed up that UP has to post this. They should not be getting trespassers, especially after the incident that happened with 844 a few months ago.

Having enjoyed this hobby for 30 years now I can tell you from direct experience that A LOT of people in the rail-fan community are complete idiots. Some historic equipment or a steam locomotive shows up and common sense and manners go out the window. Most of the time its because of someone trying to get "the perfect photo."

@J611 I could not agree more. But it doesn't stop there. Then you have to add the uninformed general public to the mix. Steam locomotives are just about my favorite thing in the world, but they do bring out the worst people. 

Boy, they are REALLY cutting it close to make it to Ogden in steam in May!

As for railfans, I fully agree with the above. Some will do anything to get the shot they somehow feel entitled to.

 With time running short, it would be interesting to know more about the project management master plan for 4014's restoration.  Specifically what are the  remaining tasks ( especially those on the on the critical path) for 4014's run to Ogden.  While photos are interesting, they don't provide an indication whether or not the project is on schedule.  Personalities aside, I can only imagine the pressure the UP steam crew will be working under in April - I for one wish them success.

Keystoned Ed posted:

 With time running short, it would be interesting to know more about the project management master plan for 4014's restoration.  Specifically what are the  remaining tasks ( especially those on the on the critical path) for 4014's run to Ogden.  While photos are interesting, they don't provide an indication whether or not the project is on schedule.  Personalities aside, I can only imagine the pressure the UP steam crew will be working under in April - I for one wish them success.

 

 

Well, taking the limited info at it’s face, the locomotive has seen steam from the shop boiler and a load of fuel oil has been delivered. If you care to attempt to read into that, (I normally do not like to myself, but what the hell) I would suspect a fire might be lit this week.

Regardless, the fact that a group of young folks will soon have a second rebuild of a very large locomotive under their belts is indeed a good omen for the future. It is too often said that there is not enough youth gaining experience in the world of steam, well this group is doing just that.

I don't know what you refer to as 'young', but most of the guys are in their late 50's, only a few years from retirement!

I believe he was talkin about Ed and his crew.

>>Steam locomotives are just about my favorite thing in the world, but they do bring out the worst people. 

Which is one of the valid reasons CSX gives for prohibiting steam locos on its tracks.

From the Union Pacific Steam Shop & United States Postal Service

On May 10, 2019 a commemorative stamp will be issued for the 150th anniversary of the Golden Spike.  This is a three-piece set.

Source: Union Pacific Railroad & USPS

Gary: Rail-fan & Model Railroader

USPS got one thing right.  Thetecwas a train from CA at the last spike!

Hot Water posted:

No. Steam locomotives essentially have no braking ability, unless they are running/moving light, i.e. without any train. One of the golden rules of operating a steam locomotive is; NEVER use the engine brakes when slowing a train!

Or does the need for a diesel on grades reflect some other change in the way 4014 would be operated today, vs when the Big Boys were in regular service?

Back in the days of steam, the train brakes were used, as that was the ONLY way of maintaining train speed on depending grades. With the advent of diesel, which were equipped with dynamic brakes, the use of train braking was drastically reduced, resulting in major reductions in brake shoe wear and wheel wear. The UP thus adds a modern diesel unit which can be used as need for addition pulling power with a heavy passenger train, and saves disc brake shoe and wheel wear, by using the dynamic brake on the diesel unit.

 And, today, where there are sustained descending grades of 1.5 percent or greater, there is normally a timetable speed restriction for trains without dynamic brake in use.  Some railroads simply forbid it.  

The institutional knowledge of how to descend steep grades using only air brakes went out the door with the retirement of Engineers and Road Foremen who had done it.

Tickets still available for Big Boy sendoff in Cheyenne

General admission available; 'VIP' tickets sold out

By Justin Franz: Trains Magazine • April 1, 2019

CHEYENNE, Wyo. – More than 600 tickets have been sold to the christening celebration of Union Pacific Big Boy No. 4014 at the Cheyenne Depot Museum on May 4.

As of Monday morning, Christy McCarthy, executive director of the Cheyenne Depot Museum, tells Trains News Wire that all of the “VIP” tickets have been sold and there are approximately 195 general admission tickets still available. General admission will grant ticket holders access to the parking lot next to the depot where the locomotive will be parked prior to leaving for Ogden, Utah, to celebrate the 150th anniversary of the First Transcontinental Railroad. 

To purchase tickets, go to the museum's page at www.eventbrite.com.

Source: Trains Magazine • Newswire, April 1, 2019

Gary: Rail-fan & Model Railroader

Those are some serious cotter pins right there!

"hand fit tapered dowel pin and hand fit, tapered fit bolts" 

And right there is one of the reasons we watch Diesel-Electric power instead of Steam: labor. Although they are simple machines compared to Diesels everything about Steam is labor-intensive.

Lew

Number 90 posted:

...The institutional knowledge of how to descend steep grades using only air brakes went out the door with the retirement of Engineers and Road Foremen who had done it.

AMEN.

Railroads don't teach people to run trains the way they did when you and I railroaded, Tom. Mention the term "stretch braking" to a modern railroader and he'll think you are from Mars. Mention "cycle braking" and you'll get the same look. They only teach them what they need to know to get over the road when everything is working properly. So what happens when the DB craps out as you are half-way down a long mountain grade? Somebody bring a truck full of knuckles...or worse.

It's all computerized now, and Lord help us if something goes wrong with the computer! The days of truly understanding your locomotive, thinking on your feet and patchin' 'er up to get over the road and home if you have to, are long gone. Today the mantra is to just be a mind-numbed robot and do what you're told. Don't think.

We are seeing the same kind of thing in aviation. I watched an American Airlines training video the other day entitled "Children of the Magenta Line."  (The  course line in aircraft Flight Management Systems appears magenta in color on the Multi-Function Display screen.) The whole point of the training session was to train pilots to get their heads out of the computer and just FLY THE PLANE! There is an entire generation of pilots whose first inclination whenever something changes the plan is to start banging keys on the computer. The Aisiana Air crash in San Francisco is a PERFECT example of that. The pilot didn't want to fly the aircraft, (he didn't know how to fly the aircraft, but that's another story...) he wanted the computer to do it. But he didn't even know how to properly program the computer! People died.

While younger railroaders may point to us "old heads" and think we are dinosaurs trying to re-live our glory days from the past, there is strong evidence that useful and important institutional knowledge is rapidly disappearing from the railroad industry. And that is NOT good.

Those who fail to study history are doomed to repeat it...

Long live us dinosaurs!!!

where do these update photos show up on the UP Steam Club Facebook page? I'm a member, and I go there, but I NEVER see the photos I see in this thread.  I will admit, that Facebook and I have about the same relationship as I have with my smart @!#@@!! phone.

They are just mixed in the stream of posts. Which means you have to wade through the crap to see them

Rich:

We all have seen some of the most successful dinos of all time:  BIRDS.

All:

According to a recent article in TRAINS, what killed steam on the N&W was shop not over the road costs.

The other thing that killed steam on the N&W was the loss of part suppliers; air pumps, dynamos, etc. etc. peculiar to steam engines.

Union Pacific Steam Club Update No. 5 - Apr. 10, 2019

From the UP Steam Team: We've been working hard out here making good progress. For the first time in 60 years a UP 4000 class locomotive has fire in its firebox in Cheyenne...an oil fire.

A fire was successfully lit April 9 in the firebox of the UP 4014, the crew is excited to undergo additional testing of the modified "oil conversion" for the Big Boy 4014.

May 9 and 10 Ceremonies to be Streamed Live via Facebook

Can't make it to Ogden or Promontory for the big events May 9 and 10? That's OK, we've got you covered

Union Pacific will be streaming both ceremonies live via the UP Facebook page, located at http://www.facebook.com/unionpacific. If you haven't already "liked" our Facebook page, do it today. You'll be notified as soon as the cameras start rolling.

We'll be including schedules for the May 9 and 10 events in future Steam Club emails.

Gary: Rail-fan & Model Railroader 

Also in the email from Union Pacific,