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wb47 posted:

The water first goes through the treatment car which is in the consist, then to the tender, late UP had massive treatment towers along.the way, there are pics of them out there.

No, that's not how it's done. There is no "Water Treatment Car" in the consist.

The city water is treated with chemicals in the tenders to control it's PH and to keep the dissolved solids in suspension so they can be blown out when they blow down the boiler (which I hope they are doing regularly).  The "witches brew" of chemicals typically includes an oxygen scavenger to reduce pitting of the boiler steel.

NKP Muncie posted:
breezinup posted:
Farmer_Bill posted:

Big Boy Weighs More Than a 747?  It'll never get off the ground! 

The USA Today description comes up a little short. Actually, the Big Boy is longer than three city buses, and weighs more than the weight of the largest 747 model fully loaded and the largest 737 model fully loaded combined.  

The 747 has a wider wingspan, however.

Well, from what I see on Wiki, a fully loaded 747 tops out at 970,000 pounds. The locomotive (sans tender) is ABOUT 760,000 pounds. And bus length comparison depends, again, on whether you are including the tender. Locomotive itself is almost exactly two (non-articulated) buses, and with tender a little more than three. The article didn't say locomotive and tender.

David

Here's a neat graphic from Railway Age:

train

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Rich Melvin posted:
wb47 posted:

The water first goes through the treatment car which is in the consist, then to the tender, late UP had massive treatment towers along.the way, there are pics of them out there.

No, that's not how it's done. There is no "Water Treatment Car" in the consist.

The city water is treated with chemicals in the tenders to control it's PH and to keep the dissolved solids in suspension so they can be blown out when they blow down the boiler (which I hope they are doing regularly).  The "witches brew" of chemicals typically includes an oxygen scavenger to reduce pitting of the boiler steel.

In Evanston a hose came from a fire hydrant and went in the first baggage car. Then a second hose went from the baggage car to the tenders. I assumed that the baggage car had filters and was adding water treatment chemical.  Be interesting  to know for sure. 

David Johnston posted:

In Evanston a hose came from a fire hydrant and went in the first baggage car. Then a second hose went from the baggage car to the tenders. I assumed that the baggage car had filters and was adding water treatment chemical.  Be interesting  to know for sure. 

I stand corrected...and concerned.

The current UP Steam Program manager has indeed installed a water softening treatment plant inside the front of the tool car. So, instead of using proper and long established boiler water treatment chemical programs, all the water going into the tenders now passes through this water softener, where chemicals are also added. One of the chemical he is using is Terlyn, which will eventually eat the steel inside the boiler plus the water side of the flues & tubes.

Two other steam operators have tried this water softening trick. Canadian Pacific #2816 and Santa Fe 3751 both experienced disastrous results with foaming, plugging of the superheater units and plugging of the front end throttle when trying this water treatment method.

Do you begin to see why some of us in the steam community are very concerned about the way the UP steam program is being managed?

NKP Muncie posted:
breezinup posted:
Farmer_Bill posted:

Big Boy Weighs More Than a 747?  It'll never get off the ground! 

The USA Today description comes up a little short. Actually, the Big Boy is longer than three city buses, and weighs more than the weight of the largest 747 model fully loaded and the largest 737 model fully loaded combined.  

The 747 has a wider wingspan, however.

Well, from what I see on Wiki, a fully loaded 747 tops out at 970,000 pounds. The locomotive (sans tender) is ABOUT 760,000 pounds. And bus length comparison depends, again, on whether you are including the tender. Locomotive itself is almost exactly two (non-articulated) buses, and with tender a little more than three. The article didn't say locomotive and tender.

David

Since the locomotive can not and would not operate without its tender, it is both typical and correct to include the tender in these comparisons.

Rich Melvin posted:
wb47 posted:

The water first goes through the treatment car which is in the consist, then to the tender, late UP had massive treatment towers along.the way, there are pics of them out there.

No, that's not how it's done. There is no "Water Treatment Car" in the consist.

The city water is treated with chemicals in the tenders to control it's PH and to keep the dissolved solids in suspension so they can be blown out when they blow down the boiler (which I hope they are doing regularly).  The "witches brew" of chemicals typically includes an oxygen scavenger to reduce pitting of the boiler steel.

That makes sense as chlorine is highly corrosive and controlling the pH (btw, the p is always lower case) is critical to prevent this with regards to steel.  This can vary greatly based on the grades of steel, and the tender is most likely a lower carbon and low alloy type.  However chlorine is known to quickly corrode different grades of stainless steel too.

Not sure what kind of softening treatment is being performed, but anything using NaCl will accelerate corrosion in the steel.

EscapeRocks posted:
NKP Muncie posted:
breezinup posted:
Farmer_Bill posted:

Big Boy Weighs More Than a 747?  It'll never get off the ground! 

The USA Today description comes up a little short. Actually, the Big Boy is longer than three city buses, and weighs more than the weight of the largest 747 model fully loaded and the largest 737 model fully loaded combined.  

The 747 has a wider wingspan, however.

Well, from what I see on Wiki, a fully loaded 747 tops out at 970,000 pounds. The locomotive (sans tender) is ABOUT 760,000 pounds. And bus length comparison depends, again, on whether you are including the tender. Locomotive itself is almost exactly two (non-articulated) buses, and with tender a little more than three. The article didn't say locomotive and tender.

David

Here's a neat graphic from Railway Age:

train

Silly to argue such semantics, I suppose, but most people in referring to a steam locomotive are talking about the engine and its tender, the tender being an integral part of a  steam locomotive without which the engine can't move, many of which were specifically mated to their engine. Certainly journalists descibing a steam locomotive would be referring to the whole thing, tender included, and not differentiating the engine from its tender. When USA Today said in their article that "the locomotive rolled out of a Union Pacific restoration shop" they were referring to the engine and tender together, and not meaning that the engine rolled out by itself!

The size of the 747 is impressive, however, it should be remembered that airplanes are not solid objects, but rather are largely hollow tubes. The operating empty weight of a 747-8 passenger version is "just" 485,000 pounds. Perhaps some would argue that's a better apples-to-apples comparison, at least when talking about the Big Boy weighing more than a 747.

Well, enough of this silliness!

Last edited by breezinup

I as wondering if 4014 and 844 are being set up for their display in Ogden yet?

Tomorrow's the big day! I’m quite sure it’ll be like being in Times Square for New Year’s Eve at Promontory, a real mass of humanity that would drive me nuts. That said, it would be neat to be there for the anniversary if you had a convenient way in and out of the park.

There’s tomorrow, the 75th anniversary of the Normandy landings on June 6, then the 50th anniversary of the Apollo 11 landing on July 20th. It’s an interesting year for history buffs!

Last edited by p51
p51 posted:

I as wondering if 4014 and 844 are being set up for their display in Ogden yet?

Tomorrow's the big day! I’m quite sure it’ll be like being in Times Square for New Year’s Eve at Promontory, a real mass of humanity that would drive me nuts. That said, it would be neat to be there for the anniversary if you had a convenient way in and out of the park.

There’s tomorrow, the 75th anniversary of the Normandy landings on June 6, then the 50th anniversary of the Apollo 11 landing on June 20th. It’s an interesting year for history buffs!

They were set up like this today when I snapped this shot:

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wb47 posted:

Rich, the water treatment car (for lack of a better term) was in use 3 years ago on the trip to St Louis with the 844. I saw them in Marysville Kansas. Have you spoken to Ed to see what is actually happening?

LOL! No, I have never spoken to Ed. I doubt that he’s interested in speaking to me, either.

I have, however, seen the images of the scaled up boiler from 844, partially caused by the use of this water softener car instead of the tried and proven chemical treatments used by everyone else in this industry.

DOMINIC: The chemicals I used at TVRM in 1974 were in liquid form and were measured into a five gallon bucket, and then hoisted up to the tender water hatch with a rope. The liquids were added while the tank was filling with a fire hose. This is a time tested technique to minimize foaming and scale buildup, while reducing oxidation of boiler metals.

palallin posted:
p51 posted:

There’s tomorrow, the 75th anniversary of the Normandy landings on June 6, then the 50th anniversary of the Apollo 11 landing on June 20th. It’s an interesting year for history buffs!

Lee,

Don't you mean JULY 20th?  I remember that because it's my dad's birthday.

Yep, beats me why I wrote June...

Rich Melvin posted:
. One of the chemical he is using is Terlyn, 

Interesting. N&W used Zeolite on the 2300. Your previous comments regarding treatment of municipal water are spot-on. I do wonder why anyone would try to develop a treatment program on their own when there are companies such as ChemTreat out there who specialize in boiler water chemistry. 

Last edited by Gilly@N&W

Transcontinental Railroad -150th Anniversary Stamp

Continued from page 9 on this thread. Please see page 9 for more information.

Today I went up to my local post office and the Transcontinental Railroad  stamps go on sale at 9:00 AM EDT. I had three stamps postmarked May 10, 2019, Union Lake, Michigan. These postmarks make the stamps more valuable.

Transcontinendial 150 Aniversary Stamp

Next to the post office is a Dollar Store and picked up a frame to hold one sheet of stamps and postmarks, plus USPS Transcontinental Railroad shipping cover.

Will be hanging in my train room.

Gary: Rail-fan & Model Railroader, Now with a Union Pacific 4014 on my layout.

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Dennis LaGrua posted:

This is living history folks. Who ever thought that we would ever see the largest steam locomotive ever built running again!  Since there are no water towers along the way to Ogden , I assume that each locomotive carries an extra tender of water. As for the coal supply those tenders are huge and running at very moderate speeds. This probably extends the coal supply use, although the Big Boy's firebox is large and has a big appetite.  AFAIK the firebox on a Big Boy is not fed by hand (its too big) but by a mechanical screw conveyor controlled by the fireman. Must be a tricky process to keep up steam but the guys in the cab apparently do it well.

The Big Boy was converted to burn oil.

Tinplate Art posted:

I may request my ashes be added to the firebox of a live steam engine like the deceased gentleman who was mentioned by the UP Chairman in that video!

I thought that was neat.  The fact the family traveled all the way from the UK for this, because it meant so much to their husband/father, show the wide impact this event is having on the public at large.

My niece and her husband live about 15 minutes south of the festivities and went this morning.

They told me it is simply amazing, and you can't fathom just how big these historic pieces of machinery are.  They are in their mid twenties, and not so much train people as they are historians.  They said it was an experience they will not soon forget.

They also told me that the excitement of the crowd was palpable, and everyone, including the officials, were so nice.   My niece is going to be drop boxing some of her pictures to me, and I will share once I get them.

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Ashes in the BB?

1.  What does that have to do with the CP-UP join up?

2.  If the family wants to do that, work with UP on that in private.  Some people are VERY SENSITIVE about human remains for various reasons.  That could have been a PR nightmare.  Odd UP HR did not catch this.

1.  It involves the Big boy, which is the subject of this discussion.

2.  How is that any different from sending ashes up into space, which has been a PR boon in a couple of cases?  Some people are very sensitive about the "horrific pollution" a steam engine produces, but I don't think UP PR is too worried about the outlying statistics.

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