UP 4014

Gregg posted:

 So the two supervisors AND the Pilot Engineer being lost was the fault of the crew on 4449?????

 

We  get your point but you were still a crew member who   is  also responsible  for reading and understanding the train orders.

Why do you assume that there were "Train Orders"?

  Seems to me  5  crew members in the engine at once is a disaster waiting to happen and it did.

With a main line steam trip there is not much the Steam Crew members can do about all the railroad officials and "envied guests" in the cab. I remember one night, while on the Freedom Train, there were a total of 12 people in the cab!

I would like to  add , where & what was the tail end crew thinking?   The conductor is suppose to remind the head end of up- coming meets/  restrictions in train order territory. 

Again, why do you assume that the double track main line of the Illinois Central was "Train Order Territory"?

Seems everyone was  asleep at the switch.

No, not "asleep", just "wow & gee whizzing it" in the cab.

You seem to      know a lot about steam engines and diesels but have you ever  had a job in regular  engine service for a railway? 

No.

I'm assuming you had to write and pass the rules  exams just like anyone else with your special steam fireman  status ?

No. However, the UP now does require THAT.

 

 

You would think the IC supers and pilot would know their railroad like the back of their hand.

Trains from one railroad detour to another for various reasons.  Pilots or some guide are placed in the cab.  The only difference in the 4449 case is that the'49 is a steamer.

Gregg posted:

  Seems to me  5  crew members in the engine at once is a disaster waiting to happen and it did.

This is not a legitimate comment. We always have AT LEAST five people in the cab when the 765 is running. They are:

1. 765's Engineer
2. 765's Fireman
3. The Railroad's Engineer
4. A Railroad Company Officer (usually a Trainmaster or Road Foreman)
5. An assistant or apprentice fireman.

This has worked just fine on over 400 trips the 765 has run since 1980.

We have had more than five people in the cab on a few occasions. In fact, I recently ran the 765 under the scrutiny of FIVE NS Road Foremen! None of them took any exception to my train handling or how I ran the engine, but talk about feeling like you were under a microscope! 

Hot Water posted:

Gregg posted:

 So the two supervisors AND the Pilot Engineer being lost was the fault of the crew on 4449?????

 

We  get your point but you were still a crew member who   is  also responsible  for reading and understanding the train orders.

Why do you assume that there were "Train Orders"?

"Train orders" "Dispatcher's Bulletins" , the nomenclature is still the same. Somebody had a "whatever you want to call it" piece of paper that notified the crew of slow orders and or track conditions.

  Seems to me  5  crew members in the engine at once is a disaster waiting to happen and it did.

With a main line steam trip there is not much the Steam Crew members can do about all the railroad officials and "envied guests" in the cab. I remember one night, while on the Freedom Train, there were a total of 12 people in the cab!

That's when whoever was in charge, whether Railroad Official or Steam Crew members, forgot all about safety.

I would like to  add , where & what was the tail end crew thinking?   The conductor is suppose to remind the head end of up- coming meets/  restrictions in train order territory. 

Again, why do you assume that the double track main line of the Illinois Central was "Train Order Territory"?

Again, it doesn't matter whether it was "Train Order Territory" or "ABS" or "CTC", the conductor should have reminded the head end or stopped the train.

 

 

 

Lat thing I heard was the Shop added people to help get 844 back and running, but little progress at this time as far as I Know.

Rich, Interesting how many people can fit in that cab. I think that when 3751 comes down to San Diego they usually have that same amount.

Hello guys and gals.......

I really loved the 844 engine and what type of work is needed to get it back on the road ? I know this engine has many fan trips so what happen ?

Tiffany

The 4449 move was a passenger special, so I thought the conductor was to stay in the passenger cars?

Dominic Mazoch posted:

The 4449 move was a passenger special, so I thought the conductor was to stay in the passenger cars?

Right!   He was indeed back in the Amtrak passenger train.

Tiffany posted:

Hello guys and gals.......

I really loved the 844 engine and what type of work is needed to get it back on the road ? I know this engine has many fan trips so what happen ?

Tiffany

When 844 was parked, it had three basic problems;

1) Boiler tube and tender corrosion from an incorrect water treatment program.

2) A boiler full of hardened mud from improper and a lack of  blowdowns and proper boiler washes.

3) The firebox appears to have been damaged by burning diesel fuel in it.

I believe all of the mud is now out of the engine.  Items 1 and 3 are in various stages of completion, but the steam shop manager has dreamed up a laundry list of supposed maladies that also must be fixed such as cab floors, running boards, smoke lifters, brake valves and on and on.  The one thing I am unclear on is where 844 stands in regards to its side rods.  Mr. Dickens had new brasses machined for the original ones that were too tight and had to be redone.  The next thing I heard was that they might be cracked, and that he was taking rods from parts engine 838 which may or may not be any good either.  A good full time crew with nothing else to work on Should have been able to get the engine running in less than half the time that has now elapsed, but of course a good crew wouldn't have wrecked the engines in so many ways in the first place........

Seeing all this going on reminds us of the tremendous infrastructure the railroads had in place devoted to building and maintaining steam locomotives during the first half of the 20th century. The enormous shops, and thousands of highly skilled workers operating all kinds of complicated machines. It was an amazing and labor-intensive enterprise. We see how long it takes now to maintain a steam locomotive. I've read that back in the day, railroad shops could build an engine from scratch in 30 days.

breezinup posted:

I've read that back in the day, railroad shops could build an engine from scratch in 30 days.

Baldwin built this little gem in 2 days...

Rusty

The GN was building the giant R-2's 2-8-8-2 about one a month.

And then you have the Lima plant, in Ohio and they were small compared to Baldwin and ALCO.  And 'Pennsy' also had a huge factory.  UP and SP also had large facilities.

Here's a birdseye view of the lima plant (the smallest of the big 3)!

When they had thousands of workers, it's not hard to believe turning out these huge engines on a production scale. 

Being able to cast an entire northern frame and lathes big enough to turn 69" wheels boggles the mind.

The Ford plant was turning out a B-24 every hour during the war.  Amazing what those people did without computers and spread sheets!  I'm always impressed by the logistics involved in providing and moving materials during WW II to two different continents.  I've never seen an article written on WW II logistics and who ran it.

The fact that this guy has continued this fiasco for 3 years now is mind boggling....where's the Oscar?  It just amazes me at what he keeps finding to fix, I mean lets ignore the fact that when the 844 went from her greyhound scheme back to black a bunch of work was performed, engine truck work, new springs I believe, shoes and wedges, tubes/flues IIRC, portions of that work were filmed, then back in 05 a new firebox, staybolts, boiler braces, cab wood, cab insulation...again filmed and on DVD but that old crew boy was just slacking.    But hey, good news, the throttle and power reverse are now chrome plated, new wind wings and boards also....

Don't forget the shops of the N&W and SP!

Dominic,

I mentioned SP but forgot about N&W.  They put out some of the best engines ever made with the J, A and Y-6B.

Sam

The Santa Fe had a number of huge shops. I've seen the one in Albuquerque. It's size is mind-boggling. When operational, it was the largest industrial facility in the state. Amazingly, it was just one of a number of similar Santa Fe shops.

samparfitt posted:

 

The Ford plant was turning out a B-24 every hour during the war.  Amazing what those people did without computers and spread sheets!  I'm always impressed by the logistics involved in providing and moving materials during WW II to two different continents.  I've never seen an article written on WW II logistics and who ran it.

The War Production Board was responsible for much of it, including conversion of civilian manufacturing plants over to war production. Here's a little information from Wikipedia:

The first chairman of the Board was Donald M. Nelson, who served from 1942 to 1944.^[5] He was succeeded by Julius A. Krug, who served from 1944 until the Board was dissolved.

The national WPB constituted the chair, the Secretaries of War, Navy, and Agriculture, the lieutenant general in charge of War Department procurement, the director of the Office of Price Administration, the Federal Loan Administrator, the chair of the Board of Economic Warfare, and the special assistant to the President for the defense aid program. The WPB had advisory, policy-making, and progress-reporting divisions.

The WPB managed twelve regional offices, and operated one hundred twenty field offices throughout the nation. They worked alongside state war production boards, which maintained records on state war production facilities and also helped state businesses obtain war contracts and loans.

Wow! Talk about thread drift...

OK, so the 4014 is on the back burner for now ... can someone give us additional info without getting into criticisms of individuals and railroads? UP did go to the trouble of acquiring it and moving it ...

http://www.uprr.com/newsinfo/m...eam/4014/index.shtml

Big Boy No. 4014 was delivered to Union Pacific in December 1941. The locomotive was retired in December 1961, having traveled 1,031,205 miles in its 20 years in service. Now, Union Pacific is undertaking the movement and restoration of one of the world's largest steam locomotives.

[two years ago] No. 4014 was successfully moved from its display location in Pomona, Calif., to Cheyenne, Wyo., where it will undergo restoration that is anticipated to take three to five years.

As has been said on this subject many times before on this web site and many others...

NOTHING is happening with the 4014. They haven't even got 844 up and running yet.

If we look beyond the steam program, there are much larger issues facing Union Pacific in recent months which would make steam restoration a low priority. Why doesn't someone dredge out "the rest of the story" ...

OGR Webmaster posted:

Wow! Talk about thread drift...

Rich, I think it could be ADHD, and probably some senior citizen ADHD, too boot!

I just love reading these UP Steam posts, and then go to the "Y", work out on the speed bag for about 15 minutes, then the big bag for another 10 minutes or so.

Then I'm ready, and in shape to go along with my wife shopping!.......................... 

Ace posted:

If we look beyond the steam program, there are much larger issues facing Union Pacific in recent months which would make steam restoration a low priority. Why doesn't someone dredge out "the rest of the story" ...

Well, the "rest of the story" goes back to January 2011, after Steve Lee retired. The entire UP "steam program" quickly started going down hill then, which was LONG BEFORE  the drop in traffic and current budget cuts.

Union Pacific (and other railroads) are having major ups and downs in recent years, and especially in recent months, with major drops in traffic and earnings. Thousands of railroad jobs are being cut, and you guys want to complain that the steam program is stalled! The steam program is clearly a low priority project in the larger scheme of running a viable railroad. We will just have to accept that the 4014 is a long-term project that is apparently being postponed.

Union Pacific to cut ...
POSTED: FRIDAY, AUGUST 14, 2015 1:00 AM

Cargo volumes at the railroad fell 6 percent in the second quarter of the year from 2014. Coal and crude-oil volumes fell especially hard, with drops of 26 percent and 29 percent, respectively. Lower oil prices led to reduced production from the shale fields served by Union Pacific.

Union Pacific shares have fallen 22 percent in the past year ... The company released its staff-reduction plan ...
The company said it would offer severance packages to employees who are terminated. “Communication to impacted employees will occur over the next few months,” ...

Ace posted:

Union Pacific (and other railroads) are having major ups and downs in recent years, and especially in recent months, with major drops in traffic and earnings. Thousands of railroad jobs are being cut, and you guys want to complain that the steam program is stalled! The steam program is clearly a low priority project in the larger scheme of running a viable railroad. We will just have to accept that the 4014 is a long-term project that is apparently being postponed.

But that was NOT the case in 2011, nor 2012, nor 2013!  All the rest of your rhetoric simply does NOT hold water when related to the disaster of the UP steam shop since 2011.

Union Pacific to cut ...
POSTED: FRIDAY, AUGUST 14, 2015 1:00 AM

Cargo volumes at the railroad fell 6 percent in the second quarter of the year from 2014. Coal and crude-oil volumes fell especially hard, with drops of 26 percent and 29 percent, respectively. Lower oil prices led to reduced production from the shale fields served by Union Pacific.

Union Pacific shares have fallen 22 percent in the past year ... The company released its staff-reduction plan ...
The company said it would offer severance packages to employees who are terminated. “Communication to impacted employees will occur over the next few months,” ...

Dominic Mazoch posted:

The 4449 move was a passenger special, so I thought the conductor was to stay in the passenger cars?

Right, that's where he would be  .   (probably would rather be on the engine)  Anyway  rule 90.

The conductor on every passenger train must give communicating signal 16m   o o ____    between 1 & 3 miles from every station  at which it is to meet or wait for a train, clear a superior train or move through a siding or crossover when so instructed. There was a whistle in the engine cab and the crew would hear  2 short and one long whistle. The engineman must take a running test of the brakes then give the whistle signal 14n   o o ___ in acknowledgement.   If no acknowledgement from the head end the conductor would then have to stop the train with the emergency brake,,

I know modern trains  no longer have a communicating system but I believe the rule still applies and the radio takes it place,,     I wonder if the 4449 and 765 still has the signal line and whistle?

The Amtrak train had cars they bought from the fright railroads.  I think they should have signal lines in 1977.  

Dominic Mazoch posted:

The Amtrak train had cars they bought from the fright railroads.  I think they should have signal lines in 1977.  

The radio worked a LOT better!

Hot Water posted:

Dominic Mazoch posted:

The Amtrak train had cars they bought from the fright railroads.  I think they should have signal lines in 1977.  

The radio worked a LOT better!

Conductor with 5 watt handi should work in a short passenger train.  the '4449 should have had a 40-45 watt mobile; both in the 160 MHZ railroad band.

Dieselbob posted:

Tiffany posted:

Hello guys and gals.......

I really loved the 844 engine and what type of work is needed to get it back on the road ? I know this engine has many fan trips so what happen ?

Tiffany

When 844 was parked, it had three basic problems;

1) Boiler tube and tender corrosion from an incorrect water treatment program.

2) A boiler full of hardened mud from improper and a lack of  blowdowns and proper boiler washes.

3) The firebox appears to have been damaged by burning diesel fuel in it.

I believe all of the mud is now out of the engine.  Items 1 and 3 are in various stages of completion, but the steam shop manager has dreamed up a laundry list of supposed maladies that also must be fixed such as cab floors, running boards, smoke lifters, brake valves and on and on.  The one thing I am unclear on is where 844 stands in regards to its side rods.  Mr. Dickens had new brasses machined for the original ones that were too tight and had to be redone.  The next thing I heard was that they might be cracked, and that he was taking rods from parts engine 838 which may or may not be any good either.  A good full time crew with nothing else to work on Should have been able to get the engine running in less than half the time that has now elapsed, but of course a good crew wouldn't have wrecked the engines in so many ways in the first place........

Hello DIESELBOB..........

My goodness !!!! how did they get away with burning diesel fuel in the firebox that was design for oil ?   Wouldn't that cause a boiler explosive ?

Tifanny

Gregg posted:

I wonder if the 4449 and 765 still has the signal line and whistle?

I can't speak for the 4449, but I can tell you that we removed the 765's signal line and whistle many years ago. It's not needed or used in today's world of railroading. It's all done over the radio now.

On the other hand, the 765 has cab signals, 26 air, a 45-watt Motorola 2-way radio and an event recorder. How's that for modern!

Tiffany,

1.  Diesel Fuel IS an oil, MUCH lighter than Bunker fuel, and doesn't need to be heated to flow, but diesel fuel is an oil.

2.  Diesel is not generally explosive, like gasoline, you can drop a lit match in a bucket of diesel, and it will go out.

Doug

breezinup posted:

Seeing all this going on reminds us of the tremendous infrastructure the railroads had in place devoted to building and maintaining steam locomotives during the first half of the 20th century. The enormous shops, and thousands of highly skilled workers operating all kinds of complicated machines. It was an amazing and labor-intensive enterprise. We see how long it takes now to maintain a steam locomotive. I've read that back in the day, railroad shops could build an engine from scratch in 30 days.

It was amazing what they could do. In the video "Hudsons Along the Hudson" the narrator states that the boiler for the very first NYC Hudson (#5200) arrived at the Alco shops on January 28 (he doesn't say how long it took to build the boiler) but by February 8th the locomotive was steamed and painted.

challenger3980 posted:

Tiffany,

1.  Diesel Fuel IS an oil, MUCH lighter than Bunker fuel, and doesn't need to be heated to flow, but diesel fuel is an oil.

2.  Diesel is not generally explosive, like gasoline, you can drop a lit match in a bucket of diesel, and it will go out.

 

Doug

 

Hello Doug

That is interesting.......... how did the boiler get damaged and what kind of damage was done to the boiler using diesel fuel ?

Tiffany

Sidebar Story - I am Union Pacific Stock Holder, I will see what I can do about this Steam Shop Issue. lol 

Tiffany posted:

challenger3980 posted:

Tiffany,

1.  Diesel Fuel IS an oil, MUCH lighter than Bunker fuel, and doesn't need to be heated to flow, but diesel fuel is an oil.

2.  Diesel is not generally explosive, like gasoline, you can drop a lit match in a bucket of diesel, and it will go out.

 

Doug

 

Hello Doug

That is interesting.......... how did the boiler get damaged and what kind of damage was done to the boiler using diesel fuel ?

Tiffany

Hotwater can give you much better information about it than I can, but the upshot is that the diesel fuel in a firebox and with a burner not set up for it can cause uneven heating and localized hot spots.  There has been some reports that diesel does indeed work OK in much smaller steamers, but as you know, UP 844 is NOT a small machine.  That is another concern about 4014.  Assuming that it does get restored and they convert it to oil,  (which I believe is the plan) if it is not done correctly they will ruin it too in short order.  If you have ever looked into a Big Boy firebox, it looks like dance hall in there, and if the burner isn't configured correctly it will either screw up the firebox or not steam worth a ****.

Ace posted:

Union Pacific (and other railroads) are having major ups and downs in recent years, and especially in recent months, with major drops in traffic and earnings. Thousands of railroad jobs are being cut, and you guys want to complain that the steam program is stalled! The steam program is clearly a low priority project in the larger scheme of running a viable railroad. We will just have to accept that the 4014 is a long-term project that is apparently being postponed.

Union Pacific to cut ...
POSTED: FRIDAY, AUGUST 14, 2015 1:00 AM

Cargo volumes at the railroad fell 6 percent in the second quarter of the year from 2014. Coal and crude-oil volumes fell especially hard, with drops of 26 percent and 29 percent, respectively. Lower oil prices led to reduced production from the shale fields served by Union Pacific.

Union Pacific shares have fallen 22 percent in the past year ... The company released its staff-reduction plan ...
The company said it would offer severance packages to employees who are terminated. “Communication to impacted employees will occur over the next few months,” ...

Despite UP's problems, NOBODY has yet suggested it has had much effect on the steam program as of now, either in staffing levels or material budgets. Surely if that were the case Ed would have been the first to tell us, as cover for his lack of results.  On the contrary, there have been reports that FINALLY UP is demanding that 844 get finished.  IF that happens and then little to no work gets done on 4014, one might be able to assume that it has been put on the back burner, but the basic fact as it stands now is they can't even get ONE steamer up and running, they certainly don't have manpower or the ability to take on an additional project at the same time.  The biggest danger to the survival of the UP steam program is not the economy, but that they are still paying for it, but not getting anything in return. 

Can one purchase "Bunker C" fuel today?

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Can one purchase "Bunker C" fuel today?

Not easily, nor cheaply. Besides, the large oil burning steam locomotives, first began using #5 "power plant oil" back in the mid 1970s, such as the 4449 on the American Freedom Train. More than 15 years ago the change was made to reclaimed waste oil, and locomotives such as 4449, 844, 3985, and 3751 have been using that fuel ever since (except 844 which used #2 diesel fuel for a year, with resulting firebox damage).

OGR Webmaster posted:

Gregg posted:

I wonder if the 4449 and 765 still has the signal line and whistle?

I can't speak for the 4449, but I can tell you that we removed the 765's signal line and whistle many years ago. It's not needed or used in today's world of railroading. It's all done over the radio now.

On the other hand, the 765 has cab signals, 26 air, a 45-watt Motorola 2-way radio and an event recorder. How's that for modern!

Rich,

Is that radio "narrow" banded?  And maybe UP should hire 765's crew?  Distance to UP steamers would make it a LONG commute!