OGR Webmaster posted:

jmiller320 posted:

I saw this posted earlier in this thread and on others.  When 844 was parked, it had three basic problems;  #3 The firebox appears to have been damaged by burning diesel fuel in it.

BINGO! And who do you suppose BURNED that diesel fuel in it? Here's a hint...it wasn't the "old crew."

Thank you for making Hot Water's point for him.

I believe that's one of those pesky "facts" that Mr. Miller claims have never been posted, that amounts to "anything of substance."

Seems pretty substantive to me.

trainroomgary posted:

Is the bucket of railroad spikes, half full or half empty? Photo by Ken Patterson - Professional Photographer of Walthers.

Gary

I thought it was real, Gary!  All that "Is it a model or is it real" stuff blows me away. Folks are so talented.

That is all. Back to OGR vitriol.

BINGO!  What does that mean?  I didn't make the claim, it was something someone posted on your Forum pages.  I just wanted to know why someone claimed that burning diesel fuel caused damage to the unit and what caused the damage. 

Because diesel fuel is not meant to be burned in an oil burning locomotive.  

jmiller320 posted:

BINGO!  What does that mean?  I didn't make the claim, it was something someone posted on your Forum pages.  I just wanted to know why someone claimed that burning diesel fuel caused damage to the unit and what caused the damage. 

 

So...does this mean you STILL don't believe that ED caused problems?

jmiller320 posted:

BINGO!  What does that mean?  I didn't make the claim, it was something someone posted on your Forum pages.  I just wanted to know why someone claimed that burning diesel fuel caused damage to the unit and what caused the damage. 

No one "claimed" that they burned #2 diesel. They DID burn #2 diesel...that's a FACT. The current manager of the steam program made that decision and the result was the firebox damage that has been widely reported on.

This isn't hearsay. This isn't a rumor. This isn't sour grapes. This isn't "vile hatred." It's one of those pesky little facts you want to ignore.

jmiller320 posted:

BINGO!  What does that mean?  I didn't make the claim, it was something someone posted on your Forum pages.  I just wanted to know why someone claimed that burning diesel fuel caused damage to the unit and what caused the damage. 

 

I believe the answer was supplied in this very thread a couple of postings up on page 5:

"First, the burners in 844,  3985, 4449, and 3751 were/are ALL designed to burn #6 (Bunker C) from the  "old days of steam", thus filling the firebox completely with a VERY large flame. That large flame uniformly heats the entire inside of the firebox & and fire brick, plus curls forward and continues heating through the combustion chamber and well into the flues/tubes.

The #2 diesel fuel, when used on a regular basis, in large steam locomotives with burners DESIGNED for much heavier/hotter fuels, produces very uneven heating throughout such large fireboxes. Such uneven heating produces "hot spots" as well as "cooler spot", plus does NOT continue forward into the combustion chamber nor into the flues/tubes."

Rusty

Thank you Rusty, your answer was informative and very polite.

That's not Rusty's answer to your question; that's Hot Water's. And as you note, it was both informative and polite.

smd4 posted:

That's not Rusty's answer to your question; that's Hot Water's. And as you note, it was both informative and polite.

I think we are to the point with this JMILLER320, that he wouldn't believe me even if I told him the sun rises in the east and sets in the west!

Well Hot Water, just how many times have you ACTUALLY SEEN, the Sun rise in the East, and set in the West?

Oh, never mind, actual First Hand EXPERIENCE doesn't count for anything anyway.

Doug

challenger3980 posted:

Well Hot Water, just how many times have you ACTUALLY SEEN, the Sun rise in the East, and set in the West?

Roughly 53,978 times of each event, give or take a few.

Oh, never mind, actual First Hand EXPERIENCE doesn't count for anything anyway.

Doug

Seems to me given the quote supplied by Rusty, that jmiller320 should apologize to Hot Water. 

HW has only been trying to get across that the current manager isn't the right person for the job.  This opinion is apparently shared by many involved in the Steam Locomotive Restoration business both professionals and long time volunteers.

Each of us here on this site would simply LOVE to see many of the remaining steamers restored to running order.   In this case 4014.  However due to misjudgment and potentially inexperience, mistakes have been made in running 844 which in turn are now very costly and time consuming to repair.

It would behoove us all to please refrain from attacking one another but simply agree to disagree on the progress of 844 and 4014.  These barb throwing discussions help no one and only create animosity between a few select forum members. 

Please recall that this is supposed to be a FUN SIGHT to visit and to discuss mutual interests in Toy and Real trains.    

I would have to agree, we all want to see the UP Steam program healthy and see the 844,3985 and the 4014 on the rails continuing the UPs fine history of steam.  Hopefully this will happen in the future.   

When I looked at the reply I was using my phone and all I saw was Rusty Traque and only one color.  Thank you Hotwater for the response.

What Jmiller320 apparently doesn't realize is that the Steam Railroad Locomotive Rebuilding community is much smaller than the Model Railroading community, and incredibly smaller than the railfan community. People working on steam locomotives tend to know each other, or are at least familiar with their names. These folks are well-respected within that community for their knowledge and abilities, so when they speak, some of us listen carefully to their words; sometimes we have to "read between the lines" even, due to the politics and personalities that exist.

Now, I haven't rebuilt any steam locomotives, although I've helped work on a few, but I have been around steam all my life, owned a small steamboat and a steam automobile, so I am familiar with boiler technology, so it's harder to "fool me" than it is the average guy (although I am no Penn & Teller of steam!).

Based on the reputation and my respect for those speaking negatively about the state of the UP steam program, the photos of said controversial things, and my basic knowledge of steam, I do believe that something ain't right there. If there is any hatred being expressed, it is of the damage past and current to the equipment, the facility, and to the shop personnel. Mostly I see it as an expression of sadness & disgust, and a real concern about what the future holds for the program.

It would be very interesting to be "a fly on the wall" when upper management discusses the steam program.  I really don't understand the thinking that seems to continue down the same path when there is such a rapid complete turn over of staff; that alone is a sign that things are not well in Oz. That turn over is an even greater sign than it would be in most other occupations because the experienced steam locomotive work-force availability is so small.

Well, that was certainly a long-winded way of saying, "Consider the sources, and open your mind to the possibilities."

And I will close with one of my Steamboat friend's usual sign-off,

Well, what do I know?

In this thread boiler water chemistry was mentioned. Much of my career was responsibility for the water chemistry of high pressure water tube boilers. Our water parameters were very precise.

I know that the water of fire tube boilers is much less restrictive due to the lower temperatures and pressures, plus the make-up is close to 100% (I assume)

Is the water at least softened? What are the additives?

We had a small auxilary fire tube boiker for auxilary steam for pegging steam for large boiler startups to assist in deaeration. We used deionized water with hydrazine for the fire tube boiler make-up. 

trainroomgary posted:

Hi Josh / Yes I agree with you, thats why I put up the fake photo. Just to break the ice and have some fun, but I still enjoy this topic / thread. I will be back.

Gary

thanks for bringing my link to life!!!

Ed Dickens is back on You Tube Today: April 18, 2016

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...ature=em-uploademail

The Steam Team Photo, below.

Here we go folks ... 

Getting my Nomex suit!

"A bad manager can take a good staff and destroy it, causing the best employees (and volunteers) to flee and the remainder to lose all motivation"

Not sure I understand all the negativity here.

OK, actually I am sure! I don't understand it!

If the UP steam crew is even a tenth as stupid, as utterly incompetent, as so many here so repeatedly insist, the REAL culprits are UP upper management who must be dumb as rocks to allow it to go on!

Why would an entity who had 844 and 3985 running, break both, and select 4014 as a goal at all? Something here makes no sense . . . at least not to me.

But, feel free to ignore me! I'm more bitter and twisted about things MUCH closer to home! As to why Canadian Pacific spent all kinds of dough to rescue 2816 from rusting into the ground at Steamtown, get her running, shining like a new penny, and then just quit?

Um, yes your third sentence pretty much sums it up. Something's rotten in Den--err, Cheyenne! And even us folks down here wonder what's wrong with CP!

Although corporations can be large, they are still run by individuals who often have their own prejudices and agendas that might not actually be in the corporation's best interest. Power struggles DO happen, as well as vendettas; sometimes over simple misunderstandings caused by poor communications, etc.

Considering the CP Hudson:  Guess who is running CP!

Sad state of affairs for the 2816. 

Terry Danks posted:

Not sure I understand all the negativity here.

OK, actually I am sure! I don't understand it!

If the UP steam crew is even a tenth as stupid, as utterly incompetent, as so many here so repeatedly insist, the REAL culprits are UP upper management who must be dumb as rocks to allow it to go on!

Why would an entity who had 844 and 3985 running, break both, and select 4014 as a goal at all? Something here makes no sense . . . at least not to me.

Terry,

It isn't just you. Between the simple, "This just don't make sense" reality of the obvious (nothing steaming for years, 4014 seemingly out of the blue picked to run yet nothing's steamed at Cheyenne in a long time and apparently there's no rush to get 4014 running in time for May 10, 2019) and all the finger-pointing online, I'm baffled.

And for the 'usual suspects' who have to chime in everywhere the UP program is mentioned thrown into it, you just can't be sure what's really going on at all.

But the biggest mystery is the why the suits aren't more than a little miffed at the lack of anything steaming. Suits expect results, and it IS a fact that nothing's steamed from Cheyenne in a long time. You would indeed think that someone in Omaha has to have wondered in a board meeting by now, "Hey, why haven't we been able to ride behind one of the steam engines in so long?"

As for all the finer pointing stuff and whether it's fact or disgruntled people with questionable accusations, that's the part I don't have a clue about and don't want to get tangled up in, as there's rarely only one side to any issue.

But in ANY case, you gotta wonder why the suits haven't come down to Cheyenne and asked, "hey, where's the money going if nothing has been running for so long?"

p51 posted:

Terry Danks posted:

Not sure I understand all the negativity here.

OK, actually I am sure! I don't understand it!

If the UP steam crew is even a tenth as stupid, as utterly incompetent, as so many here so repeatedly insist, the REAL culprits are UP upper management who must be dumb as rocks to allow it to go on!

Why would an entity who had 844 and 3985 running, break both, and select 4014 as a goal at all? Something here makes no sense . . . at least not to me.

 

But in ANY case, you gotta wonder why the suits haven't come down to Cheyenne and asked, "hey, where's the money going if nothing has been running for so long?"

IMHO, I would think the brass in Omaha has bigger fish to fry, if you will, than an underperforming steam program. Sure, it's nice to have corporate excursions and a public goodwill ambassador for the company, but when Powder River coal traffic is down and the industry is hurting in general, UP has bigger problems, like skittish shareholders, to worry about.  

As to the (possibly) unanswered question as to why Mr. Dickens decided to restore/invest in a Big Boy restoration program instead of 844 or 3985, consider that while those two steamers are very famous within railfan circles and within UP towns, a much larger percentage of the general public, I believe, has heard of the Big Boy and knows vaguely what it is, as opposed to a "Challenger," or a "Northern." When I was a young kid, the children's books I read talked about how the Big Boy was the biggest engine ever made and whatnot (which is not true, by some accounts). Long story short, Mr. Dickens wanted a Big Boy because a Big Boy has more name recognition. 

 I feel like we're all beating a horse that's been dead for at least 4 years. 

THIS IS ALL IN MY OPINION. 

I wonder how many children have come to see ANY steam engine over the last, say 20 years, and asked why the engine is not painted BLUE!

Terry Danks posted:

Not sure I understand all the negativity here.

OK, actually I am sure! I don't understand it!

If the UP steam crew is even a tenth as stupid, as utterly incompetent, as so many here so repeatedly insist, the REAL culprits are UP upper management who must be dumb as rocks to allow it to go on!

Why would an entity who had 844 and 3985 running, break both, and select 4014 as a goal at all? Something here makes no sense . . . at least not to me.

But, feel free to ignore me! I'm more bitter and twisted about things MUCH closer to home! As to why Canadian Pacific spent all kinds of dough to rescue 2816 from rusting into the ground at Steamtown, get her running, shining like a new penny, and then just quit?

Regarding 2816, I'd speculate money. CanPac stock has lost half it's value over the last 12 to 16 months. Two attempts to take over two American railroads probably hasn't help their bottom line. Car manufacturers are avoiding shipping with them due to poor service.  So, yeah, playing with a steam locomotive probably is not at the top of their bucket list.

 Steve

The head man at CP, Mr. E. Hunter Harrison, is on record as stating he absolutely HATES steam locomotives.

Nothing will happen at CP until there is a changing of the guard.

OGR Webmaster posted:

The head man at CP, Mr. E. Hunter Harrison, is on record as stating he absolutely HATES steam locomotives.

I searched online for support of this but could only find forums where others are saying the same thing but no quotes from the man directly. Just curious if you can cite an opinion from him on that.

Not saying you're wrong (as I know almost nothing about anything Canadian railroad related), but I have heard the same of other RR suits in the past and it turned out to not be true...

I e-mailed CP rail.    The response "the engine is not available for display and no trips planned in the near future."    Sad to say the least. What I didn't realize HH  was also the Head man at CN rail before going to CP. Nothing running steam wise  over there as well however there are a few tourists  steamers operational in Ontario.  

p51 posted:

OGR Webmaster posted:

The head man at CP, Mr. E. Hunter Harrison, is on record as stating he absolutely HATES steam locomotives.

I searched online for support of this but could only find forums where others are saying the same thing but no quotes from the man directly. Just curious if you can cite an opinion from him on that.

Not saying you're wrong (as I know almost nothing about anything Canadian railroad related), but I have heard the same of other RR suits in the past and it turned out to not be true...

When E. Hunter Harrison was in charge of the CN (which includes the Illinois Central), at a "Town Hall Meeting", someplace on the CN system, a member from the audience specifically asked him about letting steam locomotives operate occasionally. That is when Harrison made his famous quote about HATING STEAM LOCOMOTIVES! It was immediately reported nation wide in both Canada and the U.S..

This just verifies what I stated earlier; that although these are large corporations, oftentimes what happens is what ONE man/woman thinks, OR is perceived as thinking, goes. Doesn't matter if it's for or not for the good of the company.  Congress works in much the same way; if the head of a committee doesn't like a bill, it doesn't get a chance to get out of committee to be voted on by the members (OK, I'll admit with this example I'm expressing my frustration here at the current situation preventing the Legendary Steamboat Delta Queen from operation)

Some folks don't realize that even when dealing with a large corporation, if you don't know the "family politics" involved, you can get in a "mess'o trouble" without even knowing it. I think some of the officers never learned the lesson in Kindergarten to "play nicely & fairly."

OGR Webmaster posted:

The head man at CP, Mr. E. Hunter Harrison, is on record as stating he absolutely HATES steam locomotives.

Nothing will happen at CP until there is a changing of the guard.

There's no guarantee his replacement would be "steam friendly," either.  I doubt the subject is on the list of interview questions.

The further we move away from the "steam era," the fewer people that would have one as a consideration there are.

Rusty

Sheesh, he's wrong about NS. They never turned over a steam locomotive, but the great dismal swamp derailment did terrible stuff to some of the passenger cars, though. And yeah, it could have turned over 611 had things been worse in that accident...

The 611 has been on her side once,  thank God it didn't happen then.