Well, if that Georgetown clip is correct, and 844 arrived at Georgetown RR Shops for repairs, it's curious. The post also says the UP indicated it had to go somewhere with a drop pit that would accomodate the 844's wheels. These shops seem to be an unlikely location, unless there's something else. (See picture of the extremely modest Georgetown Shop attached.)

Isn't there a "kill switch" on the remote control box that drops the diesel out when pushed?

Well that one is definitely hosed ... when luck goes bad it just keeps on rolling.

Must not have been tied down very well?

Was that box one of the express boxes the UP bought for head end business for passenger trains?

Well there are other bldgs behind the Geeps, to the right of that one...guess all they need is a big enough drop pit...

 

 

 

Yah, that's all they need, other than all the equipment in place to remove and lift and lower and raise very large steam wheels and running gear and etc. etc. In any case, it strains the imagination to think this little short line with its little shop happens to have a 8' drop pit sitting around. Why on earth would they?

Well, I don't know enough about this to even be talking, but it will be interesting to follow.

Perhaps the UP plans to just blast themselves a new pit. 

The three B's..Brass, Bumpy wheels & Boxcars..

Since the repairs are being made at a local shop.  A big consideration, a lot like a car repair shop.  How long are you going to tie-up my lift (drop table)??  In my head, most likely one set at a time if the drivers are turned on site. May be all (4) sets at once then trucked to another facility? Clasic turning involved a double lathe. I don't know.

Assuming turning corrects the problem or are they replacing tires.  Either way a large hunk of metal taking a lot of space.  A very gracious offer from this shop that easily disrupts day-to-day operation, IMO  But then again that's what business is all about.

Mike 

It's hard to believe, but a possibility that the wheels could be trued without removing the drivers..

Well this is off of the UP website.  States the machining will be done at a seperate facility...I think Strasburg since they have done tires, quartering and so on for the UP before.  I can't imagine one axle at a time as they have stated that the process can take a couple weeks if all goes smoothly.  We will just have to wait and see.

Here's an update on No. 844's status.

At this time, we know that  No. 844 will not be able to make our events in Louisiana – but our legendary E-9s will take its place.

• No. 844 has flat spots on four wheels. Because of their size (almost double a modern locomotive, at 80 inches), they require special handling to repair.
• The wheels need to be removed, repaired and reinstalled. To remove the wheels takes a drop pit that will accommodate No. 844’s size.
• Machining the wheels will be done at a facility separate from the drop pit, requiring shipping time – out and back – and the entire process to remove, ship, repair and install again will take several days.

Remember, this locomotive is nearly 70 years old, so facilities, equipment, parts, etc. are not readily available – it's like trying to repair an 8-track player in an iPod world!

We will continue to provide updates as they become available.

from a person with no knowledge of such things:  

1.  how big does a flat spot have to be to cause a problem (guessing not very big)?  

2.  how far would 844 have to slide to create a flat spot of this size?

3.  how far did she actually slide?

From the rumors I've been reading on RYPN (a railroad preservation forum), the diesel behind the 844 didn't power down when they were stopping at the station and pushed 844 a little ways.  I'm not sure if it's true or not, but it would be ironic if the Diesel that was there to assist the steamer or take over the train in case of a problem, caused the problem on the steamer

http://www.rypn.org/forums/vie....php?f=1&t=33149

Many of the experts on RYPN don't really understand how diesel MU really works, let alone how the in cab "MU Control Box" actually allows a steam locomotive Engineer the ability to control the diesels behind him. Thus, many of the "preservation experts" are a bit "out of their league" over there.

1) The terrain at Mt. Pleasant, Tex was/is up-grade and then drops off, i.e downhill right at the scheduled service stop location.

2) Since the UP Steam Crew Manager, has been "babying" 844 during so called ferry moves (they had already released the big passenger car set at North Little Rock, some weeks prior), they only work light throttle on 844 and let the MU'ed diesel do the majority of the work. This conserves fuel and water consumption on 844 as well.

3) A "student Engineer" was actually at the throttle of 844, coming into Mt. Pleasant.

4) For some reason, the student Engineer felt it necessary to place the brake valve into the emergency position, so as not to "run past" the service stop.

5) ANY emergency brake application, will activate the "Power Control" switch (commonly referred to as the PC Switch). in every single trailing diesel unit, drops the load and reduces the engine to idle. That being said, MOST railroads specify a 20 second delay in the actual "tripping" of the PC switch. This 20 second delay allows the head end units and their portion of a possible broken train coupler, to get "out of the way" of the MUCH heavier, and slower braking, trailing train load. For example, if a 135 car, 19,000 ton coal train experiences a broken knuckle only 10 cars behind the locomotives, the locomotives and those 10 cars will naturally stop quite a bit before the remaining 125 loaded coal cars, which would them ram into the stopped or stopping head end. Thus, in the case of the 844, the trailing Heritage unit kept pushing (in throttle 6, 7, or 8), for an additional 20 seconds. Those 20 seconds could have seemed like a lifetime to the Student Engineer!

6) Viewing slow-motion video, posted on various sites, you can see that the brake cylinder pistons are out on the aux tenders AND the Heritage diesel, even though the diesel is still "pushing away"! Thus, as asked/suggested by some on RYPN, the Student Engineer did NOT bail off the independent brakes. If the Student had done THAT, he would have lost all braking on 844's tender AND the Heritage diesel unit. 

7) What very few people realize, big main line passenger steam locomotives, like 844 and 4449 specifically, have what is known as a "mountain cock" which cuts out JUST THE DRIVE WHEEL BRAKE CYLINDERS. This feature was common on many railroads with sever mountain grades, and allowed the Engineers to have the brakes on the locomotive in addition to the train brakes, WITHOUT overheating the tires on the locomotive drive wheels. The Southern Pacific even went so far as to install water spray "wheel coolers" on their daylight locomotives.

8) Now the 64 thousand dollar question,,,,,,,,how did they put flat spots on 844's drivers, since the driver brakes were cut out????? ONLY POSSIBLE WAY = put the power reverse into reverse direction, which will quickly lock up and slide the drive wheels! Also remember, since the brakes are in emergency, Federal law REQUIRES automatic sand to be applied, to assist in stopping, as long as the brake valve is in emergency. LOTS OF NICE GRINDING ACTION THERE!!!!

Clear and professional explination Jack; thanks!

This is way out of my area of expertise - but remember the Lidgerwood setup, where they would put cutters on the brake shoes?  I would think that some bright young engineer could invent a grinder that could be digitally controlled and mounted on the locomotive frame.  It would take eight bolt-on, bolt-off sequences, but I would think such a setup would give quite good accuracy, and not take more than a day once the machinery was designed and fabricated.

Define "several."

It will take a bit of time, for sure, despite UP's optimistic spin. Hopefully all will go smoothly.

I'm not sure if it's true or not, but it would be ironic if the Diesel that was there to assist the steamer or take over the train in case of a problem, caused the problem on the steamer

 

Be careful with that. You may have to do some explaining.  

It gets better and better.

When it rains it pours: Union Pacific steam service boxcar damaged

Published: April 23, 2012

GEORGETOWN, Texas — As if the mechanical problems Union Pacific 4-8-4 No. 844 suffered last week weren’t enough, the railroad’s steam program was further embarrassed Friday when a boxcar that carries supplies for steam locomotives was damaged in an accident on the Georgetown Railroad. The boxcar collided with a gondola, punching in the end of the boxcar and lifting it off the tracks.

No. 844 and its support cars are in Georgetown so the steam locomotive’s driving wheels can be removed for shopping. Georgetown has a drop table that is big enough to handle the 4-8-4, which was damaged last week while on a tour of Texas and Louisiana for the railroad’s 150th anniversary. No. 844 has flat spots on its eight drivers. Because of their size (80 inches), they require special handling to repair.

The damaged car is UP 9336, which is used to carry materials for the steam program and steps for visitors to access the locomotive’s cabs for tours. The 60-foot car was built in August 1964 by St. Louis Car Co. to handle storage mail in passenger trains. The cars were fitted with steam and signal lines and high-speed trucks, and were lower than most boxcars to match the height of passenger cars. UP has six other boxcars from this series assigned to the steam program.

Yeah the luck just keeps heading their way doesn't it?  And during the anniversary celebrations to boot....  I hope they have good luck and success from here on out beginning with a successful repair of the 844....the boxcar can be replaced....not the 844. 

Their anniversary PR here in Texas has been a disaster with the E-9's as well leaving many very disappointed fans. They didn't fully open everything up to the public in San Antonio like they were supposed to. The trip from San Antonio to Houston blew through several stops so many fans were left wondering what happened there. It got into Houston nearly 2 hours early on Sunday. I was at my chosen watch spot fully unaware that it already went past an hour earlier. The Houston Amtrak station was closed to the public on Sunday so no public viewing. Amtrak doesn't have a sense of humor or care what kind of train is sitting there. I did get 1 very quick picture from public property across the tracks next to a halfway house under the freeway while trying to avoid being mugged. I saw it for all of about 30 seconds. It was supposed to be open on Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday from 8-5 however Monday was canceled. Due to a change of plans it suddenly left Houston yesterday during the peak of Houston rush hour traffic so no chasing could be done and there is nothing to see today or tomorrow. It will be arriving in New Orleans today if it isn't already there. As far as I'm concerned they may as well have never come here at all.

Does anyone think the Student Engineer will work the 844 again?

Certainly hope not!!!!

One thing I learned from reading this thread. I never realized how much work went into operating a steam engine.

Joe

I did see the train on Monday about noon.  Nothing was openned.  There were RR police on the platform, but they let my mother and I look at it and take pictures. 

Now where is that living legend, a Supt S. Lee, when you need him!

PS:  Without that UNION PACIFIC by the headlight, both E9's do looked naked!  (cf. post!)

I wonder why the sudden schedule change??....And I wonder why they failed to make all the stops?....Boy this celebration is just falling apart in some respects.  They are supposed to be in San Antonio on the 28th according to the schedule they have posted.

http://www.up150.com/events

I think the UP mini train was going to do the parade in SA.

Oh yeah your right...my mistake.

Can someone explain why only 4 of the 8 drivers were damaged. I thought the wheels were pressed onto the axles and could not rotate independently between the left and right sides of the locomotive.

Poor grammar!!!!!

She has flat spots on all four PAIR of drive wheels, i.e. all 8 drivers have flat spots.

Does THAT help you?

Locomotive wheels are a set.

I don't know or have not read about the extent of the damage to the left side of the engine, I will offer that there are both wheels part of the axle with the tires on each.

It's unfortunate, however I think they are doing well to keep the engine side tracked until the work is done properly. It is a fine tuned machine and cannot have too much "Off" balance.

There are pics floating around on the internet right now that show 844 without it's drivers. They are already off and shipped off to Strasburg. It's amazing what can be done with manpower and money. I wish other steam engines could get this much attention. Here's a link to Facebook showing them. I know everyone doesn't have Facebook but this is all I can find right now.

http://www.facebook.com/media/...e=3&l=318937ee8b

Hot water, excelent answer to us.  Only one question is if the power reverser went into reverse why would the wheels lock up.would it put steam into the cylinders so the side rods and wheels not move and lock up the drivers.  Sorry I did not understand this part.?

I think the jury is still out on exactly what caused the drivers to slide. I think it is more likely that the independent brake was set rather than the engine being put into reverse. Time will tell...

Does UP 1982, or in fact, any SD70MAC, have a black box, or memory, to see what the actual sittings were on the helper when the flattening occured?

Was the MoPac unit dammaged?

The Amtrak ticket agent in Houston told me yesterday the Express was having problems, so it was going early to NOLA.  Were any of the passenger cars damaged?

Yeah nice pics...the steam guys were flyin' with there work...now its up to Strasburg.  I may be missing something but in the video I saw when the 844 passed the camera the brakes were applied.....so at that point it didn't appear that the engineer had bailed off the air.  It really comes down to what would lock up the drivers?  As has been stated the power reverse, or brakes...it's one or the other.

The Union Pacific FEF class of 4-8-4 passenger locomotives, as well as the Southern Pacific Daylight passenger locomotives, each have a "mountain cock" which is located below the brake stand, near the Engineer's feet. This "mountain cock" is used to cut-out the brake cylinders of JUST the engine drive wheels. Thus, during very long steep down grades, the Engineer can also be using the brakes on the steam locomotive to supplement the brakes on the passenger train, WITHOUT overheating the tires on the drive wheels.

The slow speed videos plainly show that the brake shoes were NOT in contact with the drive wheels, however the brake cylinder pistons where out, i.e. ON, on the trailing truck, the tender, and the MU'ed Heritage diesel unit. The aux water tenders are set-up as freight cars, so their brake cylinder pistons where also out, being part of the train brakes.

Putting the power reverse gear during forward movement, INSTANTLY reverses the forces within the running gear, and can very quickly lock up the drivers. Just like in the hollywood westerns. Besides, that's how they used to slow down locomotives back in the 1850s & 1860s, before George Westinghouse "invented" air brakes. They only had steam jams for brakes, so CAREFULLY reversing the engine was also used.