UP844 sidelined in Texas. Updated

If the trailing truck brakes were on wouldn't that mean all the engine brakes were on or does the mountain deal leave the drive brakes off?

Read Jack's post above yours again. He answered your question: "...This "mountain cock" is used to cut-out the brake cylinders of JUST the engine drive wheels..."

Jack, I have not examined the various videos that closely so I did not know you could see that the driver brake shoes were not touching the wheels. If that is indeed the case, that does seem to eliminate the independent brake as a contributing factor, doesn't it?

Exactly, Rich. Since the trailing truck, tender, and MU'ed heritage diesel brakes were ALL applied, that proves that the independent had NOT been bailed off.

all i have to say about this is that i hope it gets fixed by the El Reno burger festival.... dont want to miss this chance to get to see it.

Thanks for the information and clarification Hotwater I appreciate it.

OK, I need a brake (refresher!)

The independent brakes control the brakes on the engines, INDEPENDENT of what the train brakeds are doing?

Jack, thank you for the explanation.  All of my own personal experience was on diesels so I was not familiar with the "mountain cock" on steam engines. I knew about the delay on reducing power when the PC was activated on diesels so I figured the trailing diesel unit was just pushing the 844 with her brakes set up.  However, your explanation shows that this was not the case and that the power reverse on the steam engine was somehow engaged by the student engineer thereby locking up the drivers on 844.  Am I getting this right.

Thanks,

Ray

OK, did G. Westinghouse "steal" the idea from somebody (air brakes)?

Update 4-26-12

 I have talked to the STUDENT ENGINEER this morning,( a friend for 25 years) and this is the account of what happened.

 The train was coming to a station stop about 2 miles out and brakes were applied as normal. He was in the engineers seat and the engineer was at the fireman controls. There was a road foreman in the cab also. The 1982 EMD SD70Ace, however did not throttle down. It was in run 6. It should be noted that the crew reported the diesel was acting strange earlier in the day, it would throttle up on it's own.   More brake pressure was applied, and still the diesel kept pushing away, with brakes on. The engineer now with the student engineer pulled the emergency brake. The train went into full emergency, but the diesel would not throttle down, and kept pushing long after the PC switch should have opened. Now full panic in the cab, the student engineer was told to use a small amount of reverse throttle to try and stop the train, and this was a last resort, as everything else was tried. The SD70, finally dropped to idle, about 2 full minutes after the first brake application. The 844 drivers slid about 12 to 20 feet and took about 1/16 metal off the drivers as a flat spot. No sand was used. I asked about the 'Mountain cock" that Jack described, and he had no idea what I was talking about. He didn't know there was a valve to cut out the driver brakeshoes. Full brakes on the drivers.

It was noted in the diesel cab, the reverser was in center position and the throttle was in idle.

It was, as I suspected in my first post, a mechanical (in this instance, computer) problem.

 The tape from the 1982's 'Black box' confirmed that the control was operated properly, but the diesel engine control did not respond. The unit is in North Little Rock until they find what malfunctioned.

The Good news is the steam crew expects (BTW, no one was fired) the 844 to be completed by mid to late next week, as 2 sets of drivers were sent to Pennsylvania, and the other 2 sets were sent to Kentucky to speed the turning driver time and reinstall the drivers ASAP to get the loco back out on the road.

That's great news. Don't you know there is a lot of pressure (sorry for the pun) on the UP to get the engine up and running ASAP.

I wonder how the schedule will be rehabilitated, if at all. The engine was supposed to be in Ft. Worth at the end of its run, and I'd like to go over and see it.

Great news Chuck, thanks for the info

How many cars were in the train? Do they run with 110 psi trainline?

Interesting.

1) If the brakes were placed in emergency, sand is AUTOMATICLly applied, per FRA requirements.

2) Just because he was not aware of the "mountain cock" does NOT mean it isn't there and was being used. You can see in the slow motion videos, that the drive brake shoes where NOT against the drivers.

Too bad no one in the cab thought to just drop the generator field switch in the MU Control Box, which would have unloaded the 1982.

Thought ofs tend to go by the wayside when there is less and less time to make decisions before all time is up for your decision making.

I am happy no one is fired and not so happy that the Diesel is in Little Rock to be worked on. The Student Engineer should now be a valuable asset to the railroad.

I hope that the repairs to 844 is finished asap and some other engine can coast along until needed.

Now is the student engineer a "student engineer" to the UP in general, or to the Steam Team?

The STUDENT ENGINEER was a regular road conductor out of Denver and Cheyenne for about 5 years before being asked (promoted) to join the steam team.

It's good he wasn't fired. That's good personnel management: often a person who goes through a tough experience ends up being better for it, and better than someone who hasn't had the experience. He may end up being the best there is.

Well that is good to hear.  As said, if he is a smart man (which I am sure he is) he will walk away from this having learned something(s) and how to apply what he has learned.....including about that mountain valve...  Also nice to hear that the 844 will be back on her feet next week if all goes well.  My hats off to the steam crew for all there hard work and their dedication to preserving this great part of history.  Goes to show what can be done and how fast it can be done when you need it...and have the $$$$

quote:

Now is the student engineer a "student engineer" to the UP in general, or to the Steam Team?

quote:

The STUDENT ENGINEER was a regular road conductor out of Denver and Cheyenne for about 5 years before being asked (promoted) to join the steam team.

That doesn't really answer the question.

HOLD THE PHONE!

If the diesel was properly MU'd and running under the control of the MU box in the 844, the reverser should have been REMOVED!  A diesel locomotive will not respond to MU commands if the reverser is still plugged into the control stand. This statement places this whole dialog in question in my mind.

And I still have to wonder why the engineer didn't simply flip the Generator Field switch off. That would have instantly unloaded the diesel. It may have stayed revved up to Run 6, but it would have unloaded.

Something is still not right here...

A few years ago I had a conversation with some of the contractor crew cleaning up a derailment here for the UP. The UP doesn't clear it up - a contractor does. It's a specialty job now, and not one the railroad does itself anymore, for the most part.

There are a number of companies around the country that specialize in cleaning up after derailments and accidents. They bring in their own equipment and crews, moving railcars around, etc. This particular company works a large multistate area going into the midwest and further west than Texas.

These guys were very matter-of-fact about it, and said they are on the move all the time, because derailments and accidents are happening constantly. Obviously there's a lot of work, keeping a number of good-sized companies in business all over the country. Noone ever hears about most of these accidents outside of some at the railroad. This conversation gave me a different perspective on these things.

This particular wreck was blocking a main line, so they worked round-the-clock until it was cleared, initially just getting wrecked cars out of the way to let the track crew come in to fix the damaged track and open the line. Some of the cars on their sides were auto racks full of new cars. It happens.

Point is, we see a mashed up boxcar or dinged up engine and think, wow, that's something. But lots of stuff like this is happening all the time. The 844 is special, of course, but these problems are more like just another day on the job to them than they are to us. They've seen everything, many many times before. I guess that's good.

I assume that when he said the reverser was in center position, the handle was removed. He didn't go into detail about the field switch, but the road foreman and other qualified people didn't seem to think of that either. Maybe they did kill the switch, and that's how they finally got the engine to stop pushing. Next time I talk to him, I'll get more details. 

OK, I've got a question...

I have heard on diesels that when flat spots occur, they will use special brake shoes to even out those flat spots during normal service.

Is it because of the driver diameter, or maybe the extent of the flat spot, that they couldn't use something like that in the 844's case?  Or, is it something else entirely?

I was thinking about this over the weekend, when I was out riding my bike with my friends and we were coming to an intersection where we had the right of way and we could see that the cross traffic was not realizing that we "had" the intersection and the first few of us locked up or rear tires.

It actually cause more than a flat spot... the tire actually started to separate at the sidewall seam / tread interface.  I also brought it over to the shop for new tires... the 700mm diameter type (not 80" driver type).

That's what happens when you put a 260 pound man on a road bicycle.

Thanks,

Mario...

The Manager of the UP Steam Crew may not have thought of the Carborundum, i.e. abrasive, brake shoes! They are not expensive, and work pretty well.

Amazing, I think that might do well enough for the Tires on the 844.

To tie into flat spots, I ruined a set of 8 trailer tires once on the newly re-paved 495 when a Car and I had a accident. All of the tires locked up and the asphalt melted or rolled into the bottoms replacing the tread all the way down to the metal.

You would think in metallurgy, they would want tires harder than the rail head. But if I am displaying my ignorance, please do teach why the tires get the spot first and not the rail?

In the B&O RR stories of "Burnt" rail are here and there with quite some seriousness.

With the drivers not rotating, the same point of the wheel is wearing against the rail, where as the rail is "moving," as it were.  The point of contact from the rail's perspective does not remain under the driver long.

Rusty

Hmm,

So, are they going the turn down all the tires to true them or add metal the to flat spots and them true them to their existing diameter?

Richard

First it is "against the law" to weld on a wheel/wheel tread. The only welding allowed is to move the piece of equipment off the main line, so as not to break any rail, and movement must be walking speed.

Second, the UP Steam Crew Mechanical ground off the edges of the flat spots (approximately 2" long), in order to proceed and 25 to 35 MPH down to Georgetown, Texas, where a drop table is located, large enough to drop 80" diameter wheel sets.

Third, the drive wheel sets have been removed and shipped to two different contract machine shops that each have wheel lathes large enough to swing 80" diameter wheels (Strasburg and TVRM). The tires will NOT be removed, nor "welded upon, but will be turned/reprofiled until the flat spots are all turned out, and ALL the wheels are the EXACT same diameter.

It is something else entirely.

On a steam locomotive, all 8 drivers have to be the EXACT SAME DIAMETER. There is no way you could hang 8 abrasive shoes on those wheels and true them up so they would all be exactly the same. Not to mention that it would take forever to turn down 2" flat spots with abrasive shoes.

Think about it...you have to take metal off the tire all the way around it until the surface of the tire matches the deepest part of the flat spot. With a 2" flat spot, you are talking about taking 1/4" of steel off the tire all the way around to make it true again. It would take days and several sets of abrasive shoes on each wheel to do that.

Those abrasive shoes are for fixing small flat spots - 1/2" to an inch or so. 2" flat spots are way too big to fix using this method.

If it hasn't been mentioned earlier how much meat is on those tires and how much can you take off before the tire has to be replaced?

844 Reported on the move again!

Tru-ing worn wheels is done with the wheel set still on the diesel unit.  There is a cutter set in a pit, the engine is pulled on and the machining done.  Here are a couple of pictures from the engine wheel shop Conway Yard, Beaver County, PA.

Engine wheel on the cutter with the cutter down.

A replacement cutter.

Cuttings.

My father cutting wheels with a vintage 1915 wheel lathe in the mid 1970's

The person that originally reported it was looking at an old update about it being on the move to Hearne.

Saw 844 in Round Rock, Texas yesterday about 3:00pm.  It was behind 3 diesels 3950  4536 and  9490  followed by 5 cars, then 844 was at the end.  Appeared to be fully fired and ready to go.  Train was just coming off the Georgetown RR spur onto the UP main at IH 35 and McNeil Rd.

Holy cow that was fast! I originally saw someone state that the report was a mistake but I won't argue with someone who actually saw it.

It is on TrainOrders.com