How long does it take for the 3985's FRA inspection to be completed and when is it scheduled to be back to operating condition?
Originally Posted by Hot Water:
Modifications to the air brake system were also designed and installed so as to have full control of the train and independent brake functions on trailing diesel units.
Hot, if you don't mind satisfying my curiosity . . . Did they modify the 8-ET air brake schedule into an 8-EL schedule? If so, does the 844 still have a manually-lapped independent brake valve? Or did they simply replace the 8-ET with 26-L air brake equipment?
Whenever I hear about maintenance requirements or issues, and all the time and effort it takes these days to take care of them (the UP steamers sometimes take several years to go through all their maintenance requirements), I think of the massive maintenance operations railroads had back in the steam days, with roads keeping, in some cases, thousands of steam engines running. Imagine the manpower and equipment and huge shop operations that were required to do that.
Steam engines were usually shopped and out in a matter of weeks, or much less. Sometimes new engines were built entirely in less than 30 days.
If anyone knows where in the Dallas area the 844 will be housed, please let me know. I would guess at the Centennial Yard in Ft. Worth - the UP has a mainenance facility there (and a humping classification operation, too!)
It would seem they could just replace the tires and not have to do anything to the wheels, but I'm only guessing (wildly). Years ago I read an interesting article in Trains magazine about replacing the tires on one of UP's steamers in Cheyenne. The steam team was having problems with it, and they called in a long-retired former UP shop mechanic - then well into his 80s and still sharp as a tack - and he showed them how to do it.
It's ironic that the diesel that's supposed to assist the steamer if it has mechanical problems actually created the mechanical problems. 
Another video I found. Shows the unscheduled run by and the steam crew grinding the flat spots.
Originally Posted by david1:
How long does it take for the 3985's FRA inspection to be completed and when is it scheduled to be back to operating condition?
Probably 3 or 4 years now.
Originally Posted by Number 90:
Originally Posted by Hot Water:
Modifications to the air brake system were also designed and installed so as to have full control of the train and independent brake functions on trailing diesel units.
Hot, if you don't mind satisfying my curiosity . . . Did they modify the 8-ET air brake schedule into an 8-EL schedule? If so, does the 844 still have a manually-lapped independent brake valve? Or did they simply replace the 8-ET with 26-L air brake equipment?
Tom,
UP 844, UP 3985, and SP 4449 still have their original 8ET air brake schedule. Only a relay air valve was added (HB-5 if I remember?) was added, plus the additional MU air piping.
Originally Posted by breezinup:
It would seem they could just replace the tires and not have to do anything to the wheels, but I'm only guessing (wildly). Years ago I read an interesting article in Trains magazine about replacing the tires on one of UP's steamers in Cheyenne. The steam team was having problems with it, and they called in a long-retired former UP shop mechanic - then well into his 80s and still sharp as a tack - and he showed them how to do it.
Replacing the tires is labor-intensive. The old tire has to be heated with a special gas hoop to expand it so it can be removed. (Knocked off with sledge hammers... at least in the olden days. Do they use a press of some kind today?)
The new tire is placed on by reversing the process: Heating the tire, lining it up on the wheel and hammering it on. The tire then has to be trued up and in gauge before it cools enough to grip the wheel.
Then, I believe, the wheel still has to go on to the wheel lathe to ensure its "roundness."
So, if the flat spots are something that can be machined out, there's less, time, money and labor involved.
Rusty
Where does one send drivers out to be trued?? TVRM?
I would think Strasburg, they have done work for the U.P. before.
In 1983 we replaced all the tires on the 4449 with the "ring of fire". Nothing needed to be done to them except putting them on and then "Dink" welded retaining clips around the wheel. Many of them popped off after the locomotive ran trough some turnouts. Did the New Orleans World's Fair Daylight trip on the new tires without any problems.
Originally Posted by Rusty Traque:
Originally Posted by breezinup:
It would seem they could just replace the tires and not have to do anything to the wheels, but I'm only guessing (wildly). Years ago I read an interesting article in Trains magazine about replacing the tires on one of UP's steamers in Cheyenne. The steam team was having problems with it, and they called in a long-retired former UP shop mechanic - then well into his 80s and still sharp as a tack - and he showed them how to do it.
Replacing the tires is labor-intensive. The old tire has to be heated with a special gas hoop to expand it so it can be removed. (Knocked off with sledge hammers... at least in the olden days. Do they use a press of some kind today?)
The new tire is placed on by reversing the process: Heating the tire, lining it up on the wheel and hammering it on. The tire then has to be trued up and in gauge before it cools enough to grip the wheel.
Then, I believe, the wheel still has to go on to the wheel lathe to ensure its "roundness."
So, if the flat spots are something that can be machined out, there's less, time, money and labor involved.
Rusty
Some discussion on the topic at Trainorders.com, for anyone interested:
Steam & Excursion > An Option For UP 844
Date: 04/16/12 20:41
An Option For UP 844
Author: FrontRangeTrains
After reading numerous posts about the 844 flat wheel incident, me and a friend of mine had a long discussion about this matter and at the spur of the moment, he came up with an idea that could work. There's one UP 4-8-4 #838 in Cheyenne that is used as a parts source for the UP 844. Now if it has a driver on it in operating condition, why not replace the bad driver with 838's? And then send off the bad one to Strasburg for repair? I mean it could work. What do you guys think?
John Crisanti
Longmont, CO
John Crisanti Photography
John Crisanti
Longmont, CO
John Crisanti Photography
Date: 04/16/12 21:09
Re: An Option For UP 844
Author: UPTRAIN
They won't be using tires off the 838 anytime soon.
Pump
Pump
Date: 04/16/12 21:33
Re: An Option For UP 844
Author: xtra1188w
UPTRAIN Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They won't be using tires off the 838 anytime
> soon.
>
> Pump
How about another UP 4-8-4? Isn't there one in Ogden or SLC?
Con
-------------------------------------------------------
> They won't be using tires off the 838 anytime
> soon.
>
> Pump
How about another UP 4-8-4? Isn't there one in Ogden or SLC?
Con
Date: 04/16/12 21:41
Re: An Option For UP 844
Author: UPTRAIN
How about NEW ONES?
Pump
Pump
Date: 04/16/12 22:29
Re: An Option For UP 844
Author: Macster
There is no way of knowing the condition of the existing tires on any unused steam engine. It is best to get new ones made, if they go that route, which will save a lot of headaches down the road AND reduce the worry of something being out of round...
Date: 04/17/12 05:08
Re: An Option For UP 844
Author: HotWater
The tires that are currently on 844 ARE new. They all will have to be trued to remove the flat spots. Each entire pair of wheels will be sent to Strasburg and trued in their wheel lathe, as a pair, i.e the wheel centers nor the tires need to be removed for truing/turning.
Date: 04/17/12 07:23
Re: An Option For UP 844
Author: Bob3985
The other 4-8-4's have different diameters than 844, and 838's wheels, with the same diameters, are not that great.
Bob Krieger
Cheyenne, WY
Bob Krieger
Cheyenne, WY
Date: 04/17/12 08:30
Re: An Option For UP 844
Author: calzephyr48
I'm a bit surprised that UP doesn't have equipment to true the drivers.
Is the tread contour different on a steam loco driver than on a diesel, for instance? I'm wondering why, if the rods were disconnected, could not the engine have the wheels trued on a drive on mill, like they do with diesels and passenger cars?
Is the tread contour different on a steam loco driver than on a diesel, for instance? I'm wondering why, if the rods were disconnected, could not the engine have the wheels trued on a drive on mill, like they do with diesels and passenger cars?
Date: 04/17/12 08:39
Re: An Option For UP 844
Author: johnacraft
calzephyr48 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm wondering why, if the rods were disconnected,
> could not the engine have the wheels trued on a
> drive on mill, like they do with diesels and
> passenger cars?
The wheels on a diesel (or a passenger car) can be slightly different diameters without causing operating problems - the wheelsets in the truck will simply roll at slightly different RPM. But steam locomotive drivers have to rotate at the same RPM, obviously. So their diameters need to be as close to the same as possible to prevent problems with the siderods.
That doesn't mean a drive-on mill couldn't work, but making sure the driver diameters match would add an additional factor into the process that isn't required in reprofiling other wheels.
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm wondering why, if the rods were disconnected,
> could not the engine have the wheels trued on a
> drive on mill, like they do with diesels and
> passenger cars?
The wheels on a diesel (or a passenger car) can be slightly different diameters without causing operating problems - the wheelsets in the truck will simply roll at slightly different RPM. But steam locomotive drivers have to rotate at the same RPM, obviously. So their diameters need to be as close to the same as possible to prevent problems with the siderods.
That doesn't mean a drive-on mill couldn't work, but making sure the driver diameters match would add an additional factor into the process that isn't required in reprofiling other wheels.
Date: 04/17/12 08:45
Re: An Option For UP 844
Author: HotWater
calzephyr48 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm a bit surprised that UP doesn't have equipment
> to true the drivers.
>
> Is the tread contour different on a steam loco
> driver than on a diesel, for instance? I'm
> wondering why, if the rods were disconnected,
> could not the engine have the wheels trued on a
> drive on mill, like they do with diesels and
> passenger cars?
Well for one thing, the drive wheels on 844 are 80 inches in diameter! Diesel wheels don't exceed 44" in diameter, and passenger & freight car wheels are even smaller yet. Secondly, the requirement to EXACTLY match the wheel diameters with in the four engine drive wheels sets is ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL on a steam locomotive. Diesel wheels sets, even within the same truck, do not HAVE to matched as closely as on a steam locomotive.
There is no need for ANY railroad to have a wheel lathe capable of turning steam locomotive drive wheels. That is what contract shops like Strasburg and TVRM are for.
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm a bit surprised that UP doesn't have equipment
> to true the drivers.
>
> Is the tread contour different on a steam loco
> driver than on a diesel, for instance? I'm
> wondering why, if the rods were disconnected,
> could not the engine have the wheels trued on a
> drive on mill, like they do with diesels and
> passenger cars?
Well for one thing, the drive wheels on 844 are 80 inches in diameter! Diesel wheels don't exceed 44" in diameter, and passenger & freight car wheels are even smaller yet. Secondly, the requirement to EXACTLY match the wheel diameters with in the four engine drive wheels sets is ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL on a steam locomotive. Diesel wheels sets, even within the same truck, do not HAVE to matched as closely as on a steam locomotive.
There is no need for ANY railroad to have a wheel lathe capable of turning steam locomotive drive wheels. That is what contract shops like Strasburg and TVRM are for.
Date: 04/17/12 09:31
Re: An Option For UP 844
Author: rminer
As per donation/ lease agreement SP4449 will be stepping in for UP844 while repairs are being made.
Posted from Android
Posted from Android
Date: 04/17/12 09:39
Re: An Option For UP 844
Author: Hillcrest
Now that's funny...but it would be cool. A heritage unit, if you will...
Cheers, Dave
Cheers, Dave
Date: 04/17/12 11:32
Re: An Option For UP 844
Author: calzephyr48
HotWater Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> calzephyr48 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I'm a bit surprised that UP doesn't have
> equipment
> > to true the drivers.
> >
> > Is the tread contour different on a steam loco
> > driver than on a diesel, for instance? I'm
> > wondering why, if the rods were disconnected,
> > could not the engine have the wheels trued on a
> > drive on mill, like they do with diesels and
> > passenger cars?
>
> Well for one thing, the drive wheels on 844 are 80
> inches in diameter! Diesel wheels don't exceed 44"
> in diameter, and passenger & freight car wheels
> are even smaller yet. Secondly, the requirement to
> EXACTLY match the wheel diameters with in the four
> engine drive wheels sets is ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL on
> a steam locomotive. Diesel wheels sets, even
> within the same truck, do not HAVE to matched as
> closely as on a steam locomotive.
>
> There is no need for ANY railroad to have a wheel
> lathe capable of turning steam locomotive drive
> wheels. That is what contract shops like Strasburg
> and TVRM are for.
I should think that provided the drive-on mill is capable of handling the weight, and I think some freight units get right up there in terms of axle loading, that a good operator could insure that the wheels are all trued to the same diameter. I don't believe that the truing machines, like in Oakland or LA, care all that much about the nominal size of the wheel. But there may be peculiarities with the steam drivers that prevent its use.
IF that were possible, it seems a good alternative to dropping the drivers and shipping them halfway across the country and back.
-------------------------------------------------------
> calzephyr48 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I'm a bit surprised that UP doesn't have
> equipment
> > to true the drivers.
> >
> > Is the tread contour different on a steam loco
> > driver than on a diesel, for instance? I'm
> > wondering why, if the rods were disconnected,
> > could not the engine have the wheels trued on a
> > drive on mill, like they do with diesels and
> > passenger cars?
>
> Well for one thing, the drive wheels on 844 are 80
> inches in diameter! Diesel wheels don't exceed 44"
> in diameter, and passenger & freight car wheels
> are even smaller yet. Secondly, the requirement to
> EXACTLY match the wheel diameters with in the four
> engine drive wheels sets is ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL on
> a steam locomotive. Diesel wheels sets, even
> within the same truck, do not HAVE to matched as
> closely as on a steam locomotive.
>
> There is no need for ANY railroad to have a wheel
> lathe capable of turning steam locomotive drive
> wheels. That is what contract shops like Strasburg
> and TVRM are for.
I should think that provided the drive-on mill is capable of handling the weight, and I think some freight units get right up there in terms of axle loading, that a good operator could insure that the wheels are all trued to the same diameter. I don't believe that the truing machines, like in Oakland or LA, care all that much about the nominal size of the wheel. But there may be peculiarities with the steam drivers that prevent its use.
IF that were possible, it seems a good alternative to dropping the drivers and shipping them halfway across the country and back.
Date: 04/17/12 13:05
Re: An Option For UP 844
Author: HotWater
calzephyr48 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
I should think that provided the drive-on mill is
capable of handling the weight, and I think some
freight units get right up there in terms of axle
loading, that a good operator could insure that
the wheels are all trued to the same diameter. I
don't believe that the truing machines, like in
Oakland or LA, care all that much about the
nominal size of the wheel. But there may be
peculiarities with the steam drivers that prevent
its use.
IF that were possible, it seems a good alternative
to dropping the drivers and shipping them halfway
across the country and back.
The "drive on", in-floor milling machines currently used for truing diesel & car wheels, are more the capable of handling the weight. The problem is, those in-floor milling machines require use of the axle center. Diesel wheels do NOT exceed 44 inches in diameter. Thus, the two milling machine "centers" ONLY extend up-wards from the cutter head, some 30 inches. The drive wheels on 844 are 80 inches in diameter, which would require the milling machine "centers" to extend upwards some 40+ inches! They simply are NOT designed nor built for that.
Besides, the current in floor milling machines have also been know to cut the wheels on the same axle to ever so slightly different diameters. A diesel electric can get by with a little of that, but NOT a steam locomotive!
-------------------------------------------------------
I should think that provided the drive-on mill is
capable of handling the weight, and I think some
freight units get right up there in terms of axle
loading, that a good operator could insure that
the wheels are all trued to the same diameter. I
don't believe that the truing machines, like in
Oakland or LA, care all that much about the
nominal size of the wheel. But there may be
peculiarities with the steam drivers that prevent
its use.
IF that were possible, it seems a good alternative
to dropping the drivers and shipping them halfway
across the country and back.
The "drive on", in-floor milling machines currently used for truing diesel & car wheels, are more the capable of handling the weight. The problem is, those in-floor milling machines require use of the axle center. Diesel wheels do NOT exceed 44 inches in diameter. Thus, the two milling machine "centers" ONLY extend up-wards from the cutter head, some 30 inches. The drive wheels on 844 are 80 inches in diameter, which would require the milling machine "centers" to extend upwards some 40+ inches! They simply are NOT designed nor built for that.
Besides, the current in floor milling machines have also been know to cut the wheels on the same axle to ever so slightly different diameters. A diesel electric can get by with a little of that, but NOT a steam locomotive!
Date: 04/17/12 16:34
Re: An Option For UP 844
Author: calzephyr48
Ah! Wheel center--of course! Duh! As for the other, I should think a lot of that depends on the skill and care of the machinist in setting up and adjusting the cutting heads.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/17/12 16:37 by calzephyr48.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/17/12 16:37 by calzephyr48.
Date: 04/17/12 17:41
Re: An Option For UP 844
Author: filmteknik
On the one hand, the number of drivers that are going to get turned per year is so small it's best to let the few shops that can do it get the work. It justifies their continuing to maintain their wheel lathes and the work will be done by the people with the most experience. On the other hand, the work involved in dropping axles and shipping them makes it seem like some sort of in-place turning apparatus would be a great thing. Something that could be trucked anywhere in the country in a few days time.
Date: 04/18/12 07:57
Re: An Option For UP 844
Author: Frisco1522
If you're going to truck a wheel lathe (Do you know how big those things are and the foundation they require) wouldn't it be a whole lot easier to just drop the drivers and ship them to a spot where the machine permanently exists and has experienced operators?
Date: 04/18/12 09:23
Re: An Option For UP 844
Author: ddg
844 recently had new tires. When they install those on the wheel centers, are they all exactly the same diameter right out of the box, or do they need to be trued on the lathe to match each other exactly after they shrink down? With something that big, and a shrink fit, I can see where they all might have a very slight diameter difference to start with.
Date: 04/18/12 10:28
Re: An Option For UP 844
Author: johnacraft
ddg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 844 recently had new tires. When they install
> those on the wheel centers, are they all exactly
> the same diameter right out of the box, or do they
> need to be trued on the lathe to match each other
> exactly after they shrink down? With something
> that big, and a shrink fit, I can see where they
> all might have a very slight diameter difference
> to start with.
The typical process for assembling a driver set (from scratch, so answering a bit more than your question):
1. Prepare driver centers, making sure the inner hole (for the axle) is concentric with the outer surface.
2. Take an axle blank, find the center line, chuck it and cut journal surfaces and the interference fit / keyway for the driver center.
3. Press driver centers on axle.
4. Shrink tires on centers. Cut tires to a common diameter. (For a typical 70" driver, that might be 70 1/2", which can be used, worn, and turned again until it's down to minimum thickness, 1 1/2 - 2" depending on weight on drivers.)
Somewhere in the process the pins are pressed in and quartered as well.
As to 844, it doesn't sound like step 4 is all that's needed, just as if the tires had worn.
-------------------------------------------------------
> 844 recently had new tires. When they install
> those on the wheel centers, are they all exactly
> the same diameter right out of the box, or do they
> need to be trued on the lathe to match each other
> exactly after they shrink down? With something
> that big, and a shrink fit, I can see where they
> all might have a very slight diameter difference
> to start with.
The typical process for assembling a driver set (from scratch, so answering a bit more than your question):
1. Prepare driver centers, making sure the inner hole (for the axle) is concentric with the outer surface.
2. Take an axle blank, find the center line, chuck it and cut journal surfaces and the interference fit / keyway for the driver center.
3. Press driver centers on axle.
4. Shrink tires on centers. Cut tires to a common diameter. (For a typical 70" driver, that might be 70 1/2", which can be used, worn, and turned again until it's down to minimum thickness, 1 1/2 - 2" depending on weight on drivers.)
Somewhere in the process the pins are pressed in and quartered as well.
As to 844, it doesn't sound like step 4 is all that's needed, just as if the tires had worn.
Date: 04/18/12 18:11
Re: An Option For UP 844
Author: filmteknik
Only a small subset of your step 4: Turning the tires. Based on knowledgeable postings, nothing else is going to be done.
And to expand on that:
Get it to a shop with a drop table.
Remove main, connecting, and valve motion eccentric rods.
Remove pedestal binders.
Position locomotive on drop table and drop driving axle.
Repeat 3 more times.
Ship to the shop that will turn the tires removing just enough metal to take out the flat spot and contouring the flange to match.
I suppose they would take careful measurements to see if any one is worse than the others. If there is, they would do that one first. Since that one would require the most metal removed, the others have to be turned to match since the diameters must match very precisely.
As they won't be removing tires nor pressing off wheels they won't have to worry about quartering.
And to expand on that:
Get it to a shop with a drop table.
Remove main, connecting, and valve motion eccentric rods.
Remove pedestal binders.
Position locomotive on drop table and drop driving axle.
Repeat 3 more times.
Ship to the shop that will turn the tires removing just enough metal to take out the flat spot and contouring the flange to match.
I suppose they would take careful measurements to see if any one is worse than the others. If there is, they would do that one first. Since that one would require the most metal removed, the others have to be turned to match since the diameters must match very precisely.
As they won't be removing tires nor pressing off wheels they won't have to worry about quartering.
Originally Posted by breezinup:
It's ironic that the diesel that's supposed to assist the steamer if it has mechanical problems actually created the mechanical problems.
With all respect, breezinup, you can lay it on the diesel, but if I were your Superintendent and you sent me a closeout blaming the diesel, I'd send it back and say furnish corroborating evidence.
As an old Engineer and Road Foreman of Engines with lots of miles in the seat, I'm not buying any mechanical problem on this one unless there is mechanical evidence of one. My experienced opinion is that the most likely primary cause was improper use of the control box, and secondarily, failure to properly regulate independent brake cylinder pressure on the 844. This has all the classic signs of an Engineer coming in too hot for a stop (because, to all appearances, he still had the diesel applying horsepower), and getting flustered while trying to take unusual measures to get stopped anyway. He should have needed not more than 5 psi brake cylinder pressure on the 844 -- just enough to let the brake shoes wipe the driving wheel treads nice and clean for good traction when departing. Or zero independent brake cylinder pressure, since he had diesel assistance -- the train should have plenty of braking effort and the diesel in Run-1 or 2 would have kept it stretched for a smooth graduated release, and a pillow-soft stop. Nothing less than excellence in train handling would be appropriate for the railroad's hand-picked Engineer on its emblematic steam-powered passenger train.
More investigation needed. 
In the video I posted above you can hear the RPM's are high and there is smoke coming from the axle 6 on the diesel or there abouts....not sure but maybe brake smoke??....
To answer a question asked in that long thread. Yes there is a 4-8-4 in Ogden. The UP 833, but the wheels haven't turned in years, not even sure where they could remove the wheels, even if the museum that owns it was interested in doing that.
FWIW the steam crew has borrowed a few parts of the 833 over the years and we gave them a extra Auxiliary Tender we had at the museum a couple years ago.
If the tires are all bad to the point of needing replacing that is going to be a lot of work, removing the rods, dropping the axles, heating the tires and removing them, getting news tires from??? And then having to machine them to the correct inside diameter, heating and installing the new ones and reinstall the axles' and rods.....uhhhhh man oh man. I would not want to drop axles on 2 locomotive that's for sure.
Originally Posted by breezinup:
Some discussion on the topic at Trainorders.com, for anyone interested:
Steam & Excursion > An Option For UP 844
Date: 04/16/12 20:41
An Option For UP 844
Author: FrontRangeTrains
After reading numerous posts about the 844 flat wheel incident, me and a friend of mine had a long discussion about this matter and at the spur of the moment, he came up with an idea that could work. There's one UP 4-8-4 #838 in Cheyenne that is used as a parts source for the UP 844. Now if it has a driver on it in operating condition, why not replace the bad driver with 838's? And then send off the bad one to Strasburg for repair? I mean it could work. What do you guys think?
Yeah, this way you have to remove driver sets from TWO locomotives instead of one.
And it assumes the 838's bearings are in good shape and it can be towed to a drop pit.
You're not changing tires on the family Ford, here....
Rusty
So now the question is how much money will it take to fix it?
So was this just an engineer screwup or was something wrong with the brakes on 844 to be set.
Originally Posted by CWEX:
Here is the only video I have found that shows the 844 coming into Mt. Pleasant,TX where she was supposed to stop...not much to see but you can sure hear the 1982's rpms are still quite high...
Thank you for posting the videos. Hope they get the old girl fixed soon.
Loved the audio of the guy saying "That's the same 'ole train they used to pull Abe Lincoln!" Things that make you go hummmmmmmmmm?
Almost as good as the old woman asking the tour guide "Where did they get the Diesel fuel for the Colonial Williamsburg buses back in the 1700's?" Loved the answer, "they shipped it in barrels from England with their other provisions (of course).."
UP 1982 is a SD70MAC. It has AC traction motors. Possible issue? Does it have a "black box", so you can review what happened?
Your welcome Gilly...here is the latest from the U.P. Steam site..
No. 844 Update
Here's an update on No. 844's status.
At this time, we know that No. 844 will not be able to make our events in Louisiana – but our legendary E-9s will take its place.
- No. 844 has flat spots on four wheels. Because of their size (almost double a modern locomotive, at 80 inches), they require special handling to repair.
- The wheels need to be removed, repaired and reinstalled. To remove the wheels takes a drop pit that will accommodate No. 844’s size.
- Machining the wheels will be done at a facility separate from the drop pit, requiring shipping time – out and back – and the entire process to remove, ship, repair and install again will take several days.
Remember, this locomotive is nearly 70 years old, so facilities, equipment, parts, etc. are not readily available – it's like trying to repair an 8-track player in an iPod world!
We will continue to provide updates as they become available.
Originally Posted by Number 90:
Originally Posted by breezinup:
It's ironic that the diesel that's supposed to assist the steamer if it has mechanical problems actually created the mechanical problems.
With all respect, breezinup, you can lay it on the diesel, but if I were your Superintendent and you sent me a closeout blaming the diesel, I'd send it back and say furnish corroborating evidence.
As an old Engineer and Road Foreman of Engines with lots of miles in the seat, I'm not buying any mechanical problem on this one unless there is mechanical evidence of one. My experienced opinion is that the most likely primary cause was improper use of the control box, and secondarily, failure to properly regulate independent brake cylinder pressure on the 844. This has all the classic signs of an Engineer coming in too hot for a stop (because, to all appearances, he still had the diesel applying horsepower), and getting flustered while trying to take unusual measures to get stopped anyway.
Oh, shoot, don't worry about respect. Like Rodney, I don't get no respect (certainly not around my house).
Sure, it will probably come down to human error - not saying it's the fault of any machine - but it's still ironic that it a diesel that supposed to assist the steamer ends up putting it out of commission. Certainly, if the steamer had been running without the diesel, this wouldn't have happened.
Originally Posted by breezinup:
..but it's still ironic that it a diesel that supposed to assist the steamer ends up putting it out of commission...
I don't think the diesel had anything to do with this, other than being an "innocent bystander."
Read what Tom (Number 90) says above. I think he has hit the nail on the head dead center. Tom, I can tell from what you wrote that you have "Been there and done that." many times. The voice of experience.
One thing we know for sure from the YouTube video...the diesel was notched up and shoving as they came into the stop. I don't think it was in Run 8, however. Here's what I think happened:
- The 844 Engineer made an air brake application to stop the train at the station stop.
- He forgot that the diesel was still notched up and shoving, (you can't hear it in the 844 cab) so the application of the air had little or no effect.
- When he realized that the air brakes were not doing what they should have been doing, he panicked and dumped the air (put the brakes into Emergency.)
- Now in full panic mode, the 844 engineer forgot to bail off the independent brake in the 844. With an Emergency application, sufficient air is applied to the brake cylinders on the 844's drivers to lock the wheels. This is another fact that we know about this - the 844's drivers locked up and slid for quite a distance.
- Putting the air in Emergency tripped the PC switch in the diesel. It unloaded and without that power shoving on the train, it stopped. With the 844's drivers sliding and that diesel suddenly unloading, I can only imagine how bad the slack action back in the train must have been when it all ran in against the power. It must have been something!
I hope they don't try to point the finger of blame at the EMD MU control box. We are planning to use ours extensively this year on the 765. By using it on some of the longer deadheads when we run on Norfolk Southern this summer, it will stretch our coal mileage and eliminate a couple of coal stops. If UP decides to blame the the box, that may cast a certain degree of suspicion on the box itself. If that scenario develops, I may have to call on Hot Water to defend and explain the design behind the box to the folks at NS. He built it when he was with EMD years ago! It's basically a simple box, with heavy-duty rotary and toggle switches inside. It's well designed, ruggedly built and has always worked just fine for us. Not a lot can go wrong with it, but we may still have to defend it with our friends at NS.
I hope that scenario does not develop.
Diesel PC switch. PC = ?
Pneumatic Control Switch....
The PCS or pneumatic control switch functions to automatically reduce locomotive power in the event that an emergency or safety control air brake application occurs. It does so by reducing the speed of ALL engines to idle.
Originally Posted by OGR Webmaster:
Originally Posted by breezinup:
..but it's still ironic that it a diesel that supposed to assist the steamer ends up putting it out of commission...
I don't think the diesel had anything to do with this, other than being an "innocent bystander."
English lesson. A definition of "irony": A situation is often said to be ironic (situational irony) if the actions taken have an effect exactly opposite from what was intended.
As I tried to make clear earlier, I wasn't implying that "it's the diesel's fault." Fault has nothing whatsoever to do with it...it has no bearing on the irony. The irony is that the diesel was put in the consist with the intention of assisting the steamer, and instead (for whatever reason, it doesn't matter) it puts the steamer out of commission.
Originally Posted by OGR Webmaster:
Originally Posted by breezinup:
..but it's still ironic that it a diesel that supposed to assist the steamer ends up putting it out of commission...
I don't think the diesel had anything to do with this, other than being an "innocent bystander."
Read what Tom (Number 90) says above. I think he has hit the nail on the head dead center. Tom, I can tell from what you wrote that you have "Been there and done that." many times. The voice of experience.
One thing we know for sure from the YouTube video...the diesel was notched up and shoving as they came into the stop. I don't think it was in Run 8, however. Here's what I think happened
Rich, or Hotwater, educate me please. I have always (thought) been under the impression, that the "diesel helpers" on steam excursions were coasting along and pulled by the steam locomotive as opposed to actually "helping". I don"t recall other videos or in person where the diesel throttle is " ramped up" like that, but I may be wrong.
Originally Posted by OGR Webmaster:
- Putting the air in Emergency tripped the PC switch in the diesel. It unloaded and without that power shoving on the train, it stopped. With the 844's drivers sliding and that diesel suddenly unloading, I can only imagine how bad the slack action back in the train must have been when it all ran in against the power. It must have been something!
I'm surprised theres no video of this.
Well the videos I posted above were at the location of the stop in Mt. Pleasant...not a mile or so down the line....or maybe there are videos that folks just have not uploaded yet.....or maybe the UP secret police snatched the cameras before anyone could leave.........yes, yes....kidding.
844 arrived in the shops of the Georgetown Railroad last night. It is located halfway between Georgetown and Round Rock, Texas about 25 miles north of Austin. You can see the single stall shop from I-35. SP 2-8-2 #786 from the Austin Steam Train association was first rebuilt in this shop and they apparently still have the equipment necessary to remove the drivers so it makes sense they'd go here since it was fairly close. I have family a few miles from there. I may have to take a road trip this weekend.
Originally Posted by RickO:
Rich, or Hotwater, educate me please. I have always (thought) been under the impression, that the "diesel helpers" on steam excursions were coasting along and pulled by the steam locomotive as opposed to actually "helping". I don"t recall other videos or in person where the diesel throttle is " ramped up" like that, but I may be wrong.
Often the diesels are actually used to help pull the train. When they are used this way, they are controlled from a control box designed and built by Hot Water when he worked at EMD years ago. The box contains a couple rotary switches and toggle switches to control the basic functions of the diesel. EMD made these boxes for several locomotives, including the 765, 844, 4449 and a couple of others.
On a long deadhead move, a diesel helper used in this manner can stretch the coal mileage and eliminate a coal stop. We have also used a helper behind the 765 on trips where we have had a long grade to climb with a big train. By using the diesel for a little help on the hills, it keeps the speed up and we can stay on schedule.
I'm sure the UP was using the diesel for the same purposes on this move.
A couple of rumors need to be confirmed. One says that supposedly support boxcar #9336 rolled out of a siding and into a moving rock train, destroying the car. Another rumor says it just picked a switch and had a minor derailment. That one seems more likely. I need to send my brother in law over there to check it out since he only lives a few miles away.
My first summer as an apprentice, I spent every Wednesday at the drop pit changing the left #1 driving tire on a mikado. The #1 wheel set was the only one that required the use of the table. This is because the guide bars were in the way. Every other tire was replaced in normal position with only side rods removed.
The backshop had recorded the size of the wheel for each locomotive. The tire was turned on a vertical boring machine for a shrink fit and then clean up the tread and flange. Very rarely did we have to use shimming material to get a proper fit.
Knocking the old tire off was simple. But when the new tire was being applied great care had to be used to ensure that the tire was square with the wheel and driven home. it needed to be done quickly to prevent the wheel from expanding and seizing the tire before it was in proper position.
One thing to remember was block the spring rigging to take all the weight off the driver before the side rods were removed.
Really hot work!!
Old tire was removed in the morning, wheel allowed to cool down during a 20 minute lunch period. Tire applied right after lunch and would be buttoned up for the 2nd trick fire builder to light her up
.
I know when the subject of the second engine helping the 844 has been bought up before. I know when I talked to the 844 crew they were pretty adamant that it is only along for the ride to provide dynamic braking. I always found that to be a bit questionable since it seems like a waste of a lot of engine and power to just have it there for that.
Well Fred if either are true....oh brother....more good news from the UP's camp.... Lets hope neither are true...they have enough work to do right now.
Well something did happen to the car. Here's a picture:
Oh brother will it ever end? My gosh they are not having any good luck right now....like the caption says that took some force.
If anyone gets any information that the 844 is definitely heading to the Davidson Yard in Ft. Worth, please post it. I may try to run over there and see what I can of it. Wherever it ends up, it seems it may be there for awhile.
Below is a 2007 photo of part of the yard, looking east, with the hump in the foreground, and the maintenance building at the rear. Downtown Ft. Worth is on the left.
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Would it have been avoided had the diesel been manned?
Union Pacific's 844 will have wheels removed, machined
Published: April 20, 2012
Photo by Christopher PalmieriGEORGETOWN, Texas. – The Georgetown Railroad short line has confirmed to Trains News Wire that Union Pacific steam locomotive 844 has arrived at its shop for wheel repairs. Union Pacific’s steam crew said the locomotive would have to have its driving wheels removed to repair flat spots that developed during the locomotives’ Texas/Louisiana tour. UP said that the locomotive must go to a facility with a drop pit that can accommodate 844’s size.
No. 844 has flat spots on its eight drivers. Because of their size (80 inches), they will require special handling to repair. The wheels will have to be removed, sent to a separate facility to be reprofiled, shipped back, and reinstalled.
If all goes well the locomotive could resume its schedule in a few weeks. Following the Texas/Louisiana tour, No. 844’s next scheduled appearance is in El Reno, Okla., May 3-5; Council Bluffs, Iowa, May 10-13; and Omaha June 15-26 for the college baseball World Series.
