*Update* 3rd Rail: Bring On The NYC E7 Beauty Queens!

Oh, so it was your idea? Well, at least we’ll know where to place the blame.

Anyway, since I too own a hefty GGD 1940 Century set and the beautiful but comparatively anemic Hudson 3rd Rail provided to power it, I agree completely with this request. The brass 4-6-4 simply isn’t up to the task, so to get the train underway I have to resort to a die-cast Niagara of another make. This is neither inappropriate nor unsightly, (see the Howard Fogg dust jacket for Lucius Beebe’s classic title, 20th Century) but also not my idea of a fully matched train, and certainly not good advertising for the 3rd Rail / GGD combo. Tsk.

Well-modeled and properly detailed E7s in the early NYC high lightning stripe, reversed gray color scheme at least would give owners of this set (like myself, of course) the ability to make up an appropriate, amply powered, and color-matched engine set for the train.

They were unusual and good-looking indeed. The Central men of the time called them "Beauty Queens," and they have not yet been done in O scale. Bring ‘em on.

Crank

Oh shucks, When I read the title I was hoping you were starting a campaign for FT's from Sunset.

But that's another thread.

Crank,

I'll have to give credit where credit is due. To me.

Mike,

Not exactly the support I was looking for.

Rest assured, Mr. K., that all we players on the 3RS stage want see you get your due.

Crank

Well, thanks to Pete, I have just reviewed the revised drawings of Sunset/3rd Rail's E7 offerings and the corrections have been made. As a steam guy, I am not much into the styling & painting, for any road other than CB&Q, but I am helping to get the "details" correct. I still prefer steam on my ESE K-Line 21" passenger set.

Crank, I'm nutin' witout ya'.

It is nearly 8:00 in the midwest, so I'm not surprised by Jack's lucid response, however, here she is boyze:

There is this guy Jeff Sohn who posts occasionally - I would contact him if Sunset does not produce this thing for you in the paint scheme you want. I have no idea what he charges, but from what I have heard, his work is just fine.

Or, you could do it yourself. I have done one with medium results, and next time I will be using Tamiya fine line masking tape instead of cutting my own. Even though I am not satisfied, it was fun un-masking all those lightning stripes.

Another case of solid support. All classic ideas Bob, which the Crank would have never thought of himself.

Very good idea to offer this paint scheme as well as the later reversed gray colors for NYC. General rule is that builders require 100 minimum units in a particular paint scheme. Probably should be sufficient interest to do both schemes. We'll find out.

Are they on the reserve sheet? Will the scheme be announced? How about a "Special Run"?

It will be interesting to see how 3rd Rail handles the detailing differences for these models.

Will there have to be 2 different molds to accommodate the number boards, side windows, etc?

Scott has mentioned he will be doing Phase I and II I believe.

Pete,
As soon as Scott returns from the Orient we'll talk and probably add the scheme to the reservation form.

Marker,
Both phase 1 and 2 units will be produced and details such as nose doors and number boards are supposed to be add ons so as to accomodate road specific details.

quote:

Both phase 1 and 2 units will be produced and details such as nose doors and number boards are supposed to be add ons so as to accomodate road specific details.

That's very impressive! Now where's my Wabash E7's?

Support my Beauty Queens, and I'll buy 2 Wabash!

Did the NYC have B units in this scheme?

I have only been able to find pictures of A units, no Bs.

quote:

Originally posted by hibar:
Did the NYC have B units in this scheme?

Yes. A photo of DPA-1a No. 4004 (E7 A) and a DPB-1a (E7 B) new at EMD appears on page 103 of New York Central System Diesel Locomotives (Edson, Vail, and Smith; TLC Publishing, 1995). These units were in the second group of E7 units delivered to the Central in October 1945.

There's another reserve.

Were there just 2 sets A-A in the first order? I assume numbered 4000 to 4003 and what year were they delivered in.

quote:

Originally posted by hibar:
Were there just 2 sets A-A in the first order? I assume numbered 4000 to 4003 and what year were they delivered in.

The NYC's first order (E-639) for E7 units included eight A units and four B units, presumably to be operated in four A-B-A sets of 6,000hp each* (roughly equivalent to an S-1b Niagara, which were being delivered from ALCo at the same time). However, they were delivered in two groups: four A units (Nos. 4000 through 4003) in March 1945, with the balance of the order (A units Nos. 4004 through 4007, and B units Nos. 4100 through 4103) in October 1945.

* In practice, however, the photographic evidence suggests that the NYC almost always operated these units as 4,000hp A-A or A-B consists, not as A-B-A consists, even after the second half of the order was delivered. Perhaps their experience with the first four A units from March through October 1945 demonstrated that they didn't need to match the horsepower of a Niagara to keep the Century on time.

quote:

Pete,
As soon as Scott returns from the Orient we'll talk and probably add the scheme to the reservation form.

Rheil,

It would not hurt to advertise these as the "Beauty Queens" as they were coined. Also as motive power for the 1940 GGD 20th Century cars and not just another paint scheme, like the Milwaukee and GN units. Scott should make some kind of announcement, not just stick it on the sheet. I believe this is the premier and most classy of all the E7 paint schemes.

quote:

Support my Beauty Queens, and I'll buy 2 Wabash!

You'd order them anyway.

Actually, I'm thinking of ordering an E7 just to get the chassis and drive. If I do, I'll choose this variation if the pilot is close to what I need.

Sign me up Pete, Rich, and Scott!

Now, If I can put in a plug for Frisco (NOT ANOTHER MKT!) E7s painted up for Texas Special...

quote:

Originally posted by William:
I doubt this would ever happen, a Frisco painted E7 for the
Texas Special. It would have to have the stainles steel side panels as well.
this would creat another locomotive type to the slim mix.

william

True but... It has yet to be said whether or not the CBQ E7s will have stainless side panels or painted. It does say for the CZ.

Richard

quote:

The cars are very heavy, and my 3rd Rail Dreyfuss won't pull them all.

quote:

The NYC's first order (E-639) for E7 units included eight A units and four B units, presumably to be operated in four A-B-A sets of 6,000hp each (roughly equivalent to an S-1b Niagara, which were being delivered from ALCo at the same time).

It's a shame that in our 1/48 world the horsepower is nowhere near the prototype.

Count me out Pete as I don't have the 1940 passenger cars.

quote:

Originally posted by rdunniii:

quote:

Originally posted by William:
I doubt this would ever happen, a Frisco painted E7 for the
Texas Special. It would have to have the stainles steel side panels as well.
this would creat another locomotive type to the slim mix.

william

True but... It has yet to be said whether or not the CBQ E7s will have stainless side panels or painted. It does say for the CZ.

Richard

Not all CB&Q E7s, received the polished stainless steel side panels. Upon delivery from EMD ALL the Burlington E7A units, both phase I and phaseII, where delivered painted "silver" (actual color was bright aluminum). Only certain road numbers received the stainless steel side panels, after going thru rebuild at the West Burlington, Ia shops, beginning about the late 1950s. Many E7A units worked daily on the CZ without stainless side panels, right up until the units where scrapped/traded in.

Thus, GGD will be offering those painted "silver" E7A units by specific road number, for correct CB&Q accuracy.

Two Questions.

1 Does anyone on the forum have knowledge of the Road Numbers on the Union Pacific versions will be?

2 Just Trains has in the past acknowledged they will install
DCS in a 3rd Rail Engine, does that offer include diesels or just Steam?

Tom,

Just Trains does not sell 3rd Rail anymore.

Rob,

Welcome aboard!

Phil,

Here's your hat. what's your hurry.

Bob2,

Just saw your engine in OST, excellent work.

When did the NYC "reverse" the two grey tones on diesels and passenger cars.

quote:

Originally posted by DominicMazoch:
When did the NYC "reverse" the two grey tones on diesels and passenger cars.

The original light gray carbody / dark gray lightning stripe and all-black lightning stripe paint schemes from the 1945 order were gone by the time that the Central received the second order of E7's in 1947.

Repainting of the passenger car fleet into a similar dark gray carbody / light gray window stripe design was begun in 1948.

Question for the NYC fans. Is the reverse scheme identical to the one us uninitiated are used to, or are there differences in the location of the stripes, details of the painting etc?

quote:

Originally posted by GG1 4877:
Question for the NYC fans. Is the reverse scheme identical to the one us uninitiated are used to, or are there differences in the location of the stripes, details of the painting etc?

The original NYC lightning stripes are not the same as the 1947 and later design. The most obvious difference is that the nose stripes on the '45 version are higher; on the '47 scheme, they turn horizontal lower on the nose, probably to avoid the larger, angled numberboards on later cab units. Differences are also apparent in the size and shape of the zigs, the length of the nose whiskers, the spacing from centerline of the stripes, the placement of the oval NYC nose herald, etc.

Thanks for that info! There is method to my madness in the question. I must study the posted image closer.

quote:

Originally posted by Pete Kruimer:
I started the Campaign for the 3rd Rail E7 and we got it...now I need your help

Owners of the 1940 GGD 20th Century cars unite!!

We need Scott to do the early "reverse gray" scheme that matches the superb 1940 GGD passenger cars. The cars are very heavy, and my 3rd Rail Dreyfuss won't pull them all. I need to pull the entire train, and a powered AB E7 or and ABA set will do the trick. This would be a great thing to do for all the 3RS and 3R guys that bought the entire train, so we can actually pull it.

The real catch is, if anyone has ever seen this scheme, it is an eye catcher, and maybe the most beautiful scheme you can put on an E7. All right guys, how about a little help so I can pull my perfect train? I'll even take the 2 railers help on this one!

Plus... I do not think that this scheme has ever been done in any scale on an E7? We know how much Scott loves to be first.....

get frogsnot on your drivers and you will pull your passenger. my weaver hudson would not pull 8 mth plastic 70 footers and with frog snot it easily pulls 11.

quote:

Originally posted by MikeCiar:
Oh shucks, When I read the title I was hoping you were starting a campaign for FT's from Sunset.

But that's another thread.

can,t afford 3rd rail steamers anymore so diesels may be the answer. Lionel can bring out a northern for under 1000.00 so why can;t 3rd rail.

The last Lionel "northerns" I saw, the UP FEF-3 & SP GS-4 Legacy models, where over $1000, and the recently issued NKP 765 Legacy model was over $1000.

Besides, Sunset/3rd Rail brass steam locomotive models are much more highly detailed, not to mention dimensional correctness, than a comparable Lionel model. And lastly, Sunset/3rd Rail brass models are VERY low production numbers while Lionel and/or MTH produce 500 or more pieces in die-cast.

quote:

Originally posted by Eccentric Crank:
Rest assured, Mr. K., that all we players on the 3RS stage want see you get your due.

Crank

All the world's a stage and we are merely player, performers and portrayors?

So looking at Pete's photo, this order of E7's are Phase I's while the '48 versions are Phase II?

And Sunset steamers come with the Pitman can motors?