Upgrading to a fixed pilot on K-line F3 and Lionel Legacy F7

If you get the PD, you have to cut the shell, or cut the top off of the pilot. Using the Lionel pilot would probably easier.

The P & D

Get the Lionel pilot and use Mario's fixed pilot spacers and it will look great.

Doc,

Take  Doug's advice regarding the F units. The key for looking correct is the pilots installed height over the rails, Too high and it looks goofy.

Ron

Thanks LOS.

I'll try the Lionel pilot on my Legacy F7.  Hopefully it will be adaptable to the K-line F3.  

Bob

Here's a few places to reference, as well:

Lowering Lionel F3s

Lowering Lionel F7s

Lowering MTH & Early Lionel PAs

What did you use for the PA pilot?  I used the stock pilot (below) but I want to close up that gaping hole in the front.

Thanks for the references, Mario.  Your threads have been great.

I also used the stock pilot on the 1998 Lionel PA-1s.  I filled the gap with 2 strips of 3/16 wide styrene glued in with ACC and filled/sanded twice with Tamiya white putty.  I just switched from Green Squadron putty.  The Tamiya is so much easier to use.  It is thinner and you can smooth it on.  

The hoses/lines are brass from Precision Scale drilled and mounted, the retaining brackets were made from brass strip with plastic NBW castings glued on.  

Bob

Doug nailed the ATSF pilot for his 3rd Rail F7s...

CentralFan1976 posted:

Doug nailed the ATSF pilot for his 3rd Rail F7s...

Are these the Lionel pilots?

They look great.  Looks like they'll scrape the rust right off the rails.

Bob

Those are the 2R pilots from Sunset

Laidoffsick posted:

The P & D

Doug is correct in that this is the ATSF pilot, and the one that I'd use to match you photo.  I'd get plastic, though, because its easier to trim.  How I trimmed my P&D pilot can be found here: P&D Passenger Pilot for Lionel F3s.

As for the Legacy F7s, you can use the stock pilot or the one that you have shown, but you'll have to lower the body to fill the gap.  This will lower it to the prototypical height.  Look at these posts for ideas: Lowering Lionel F3s, Lowering Lionel F7s and Norm's post on the Legacy sharks (same drive train).

Let us know if you get stuck!

- Mario

Thanks Mario.   I have been following the threads on lowering the F Units and sharks.  The links will make them easier to find.  

I agree that the P&Ds look closest to the ATSF Prototype.

I have already ordered 4 of the Lionel Pilots.  I'll use 2 of them on the Milwaukee F7s.  If they look similar enough to the P&Ds, I may use them on the K-Line ATSF F3s.  

It is hard to tell from Lionel's photo, but it looks like the main differences between the two are that the P&D has cutouts for the hoses, the anticlimber which will need to be removed, and a smaller coupler opening.  If it looks like the Lionel ones are easier to mount, I may keep them and drill out the cutouts.

I assume the one to get is PDP5132.  It drives me crazy that P&D does not post pictures of most of their parts.

Bob

PDP5780	Pilot, EMD F Unit pass/freight, brass	$ 30.00
PDP5781	Pilot, EMD F Unit, "ATSF", brass	$ 32.00
PDP5132	Pilot, EMD F Unit, "ATSF", plastic	$ 15.00
PDP5737	Pilot, EMD F Unit, Passenger, brass	$ 30.00
PDP5140	Pilot, EMD F Unit, Passenger, plastic	$ 14.00
PDP5130	Pilot, EMD F Unit, Passenger/Freight, plastic	$ 14.00

Here is the k-line F3 with the Lionel diecast pilot mounted.  In its current mounting location, the bottom of the pilot is 10 scale inches above rail height.  The body features are spot on in height above rail.  So do I lower the body 6 scale inches to meet the pilot or do I raise the pilot?  Even though the body is at the right height, I think the pilot would look bad 16" above the rail.

Bob

Lower the body if possible. The gap between between the trucks and shell are huge. If that isn't an option, you'll have to make a spacer to fit between the shell and the pilot.

You are right, the huge gap between the pilot and the rail head will not look good. You won't like it 

According to my Central diagrams, its 14' 0-1/2" to the top of the body.

 That's 3.510" actual inches from the top of the rail height. In this case, you ca see that the anti-climber is all the way up on shell, flush with the bottom. On the prototype, the rubbed anti-climber is centered on the side sill. 

and this accounts for the scale 6" (0.125" actual) height difference.

What is your height from the rail head to the top of the car body? 

In case anyone is wondering...

Lionel and Atlas got this correct. 

Although Lionel put the anti-climber on the shell and Atlas put it on the Pilot casting  

MTH did, kinda. They split the ribs putting 3 on the shell and that leaves us to cut a pilot at the fourth rib and hope they line up.

Thanks guys.

Eyeballing the photo with the scale rule in my last post, it looks like my car body height is correct at 14 scale feet.  I see the problem with the anticlimber placement.  See photos.

Given the limitations of the K-Line units that I am starting with, I'm going to have to go for "look and feel" rather than prototype dimensions.   I think the appearance would be improved the most by lowering the shell 1/8."  This will improve the high water pants look and bring the body down to the pilot at it's current location.  I may have just enough flywheel room to simply shorten the shell mounting lugs.  If I can only get 1/16", I'll add a 1/16" spacer as Doug suggested.  Lowering at the truck level would require machining (no easy "add some washers" method).

I'm really pleased with the $15 Lionel Pilot.  It is nicely detailed, diecast (I expected plastic) and comes with coupler bars and one hose installed.  It matches the Milwaukee Road prototype F7s perfectly.  The prototype Santa Fe F3s have some additional cutouts for hoses, but it is a pretty good match otherwise. 

I'll post more pictures when I'm done.

Bob

You wanna see how bad it looks with the pilot 16" off the rail? 

Laidoffsick posted:

You wanna see how bad it looks with the pilot 16" off the rail? 

Not so good.

This morning I cut the mounting posts by 4 scale inches.  The flywheels should clear, but when I tested it, I had some binding.  It did not run well and current draw was 4.5 amps.  I loosened the shell screws and it dropped to 2.5 amps.   I ran out of time to troubleshoot it.

If I am successful at lowering the body, the pilot is still 12 scale inches off the railhead.  I'm planning on adding a spacer like you did to close the gap some more.

It's not going to pass for a Sunset/3rd Rail model, but fix mounting a new pilot and using Kadees will make a huge improvement. The big plus with this K-line set is the 6 motors.  I will be pulling eleven 21" K-line aluminum cars.  

Bob