Upgrading to a fixed pilot on K-line F3 and Lionel Legacy F7

If you get the PD, you have to cut the shell, or cut the top off of the pilot. Using the Lionel pilot would probably easier.

The P & D

Get the Lionel pilot and use Mario's fixed pilot spacers and it will look great.

Doc,

Take  Doug's advice regarding the F units. The key for looking correct is the pilots installed height over the rails, Too high and it looks goofy.

Ron

Thanks LOS.

I'll try the Lionel pilot on my Legacy F7.  Hopefully it will be adaptable to the K-line F3.  

Bob

Here's a few places to reference, as well:

Lowering Lionel F3s

Lowering Lionel F7s

Lowering MTH & Early Lionel PAs

What did you use for the PA pilot?  I used the stock pilot (below) but I want to close up that gaping hole in the front.

Thanks for the references, Mario.  Your threads have been great.

I also used the stock pilot on the 1998 Lionel PA-1s.  I filled the gap with 2 strips of 3/16 wide styrene glued in with ACC and filled/sanded twice with Tamiya white putty.  I just switched from Green Squadron putty.  The Tamiya is so much easier to use.  It is thinner and you can smooth it on.  

The hoses/lines are brass from Precision Scale drilled and mounted, the retaining brackets were made from brass strip with plastic NBW castings glued on.  

Bob

Doug nailed the ATSF pilot for his 3rd Rail F7s...

CentralFan1976 posted:

Doug nailed the ATSF pilot for his 3rd Rail F7s...

Are these the Lionel pilots?

They look great.  Looks like they'll scrape the rust right off the rails.

Bob

Those are the 2R pilots from Sunset

Laidoffsick posted:

The P & D

Doug is correct in that this is the ATSF pilot, and the one that I'd use to match you photo.  I'd get plastic, though, because its easier to trim.  How I trimmed my P&D pilot can be found here: P&D Passenger Pilot for Lionel F3s.

As for the Legacy F7s, you can use the stock pilot or the one that you have shown, but you'll have to lower the body to fill the gap.  This will lower it to the prototypical height.  Look at these posts for ideas: Lowering Lionel F3s, Lowering Lionel F7s and Norm's post on the Legacy sharks (same drive train).

Let us know if you get stuck!

- Mario

Thanks Mario.   I have been following the threads on lowering the F Units and sharks.  The links will make them easier to find.  

I agree that the P&Ds look closest to the ATSF Prototype.

I have already ordered 4 of the Lionel Pilots.  I'll use 2 of them on the Milwaukee F7s.  If they look similar enough to the P&Ds, I may use them on the K-Line ATSF F3s.  

It is hard to tell from Lionel's photo, but it looks like the main differences between the two are that the P&D has cutouts for the hoses, the anticlimber which will need to be removed, and a smaller coupler opening.  If it looks like the Lionel ones are easier to mount, I may keep them and drill out the cutouts.

I assume the one to get is PDP5132.  It drives me crazy that P&D does not post pictures of most of their parts.

Bob

PDP5780	Pilot, EMD F Unit pass/freight, brass	$ 30.00
PDP5781	Pilot, EMD F Unit, "ATSF", brass	$ 32.00
PDP5132	Pilot, EMD F Unit, "ATSF", plastic	$ 15.00
PDP5737	Pilot, EMD F Unit, Passenger, brass	$ 30.00
PDP5140	Pilot, EMD F Unit, Passenger, plastic	$ 14.00
PDP5130	Pilot, EMD F Unit, Passenger/Freight, plastic	$ 14.00

Here is the k-line F3 with the Lionel diecast pilot mounted.  In its current mounting location, the bottom of the pilot is 10 scale inches above rail height.  The body features are spot on in height above rail.  So do I lower the body 6 scale inches to meet the pilot or do I raise the pilot?  Even though the body is at the right height, I think the pilot would look bad 16" above the rail.

Bob

Lower the body if possible. The gap between between the trucks and shell are huge. If that isn't an option, you'll have to make a spacer to fit between the shell and the pilot.

You are right, the huge gap between the pilot and the rail head will not look good. You won't like it 

According to my Central diagrams, its 14' 0-1/2" to the top of the body.

 That's 3.510" actual inches from the top of the rail height. In this case, you ca see that the anti-climber is all the way up on shell, flush with the bottom. On the prototype, the rubbed anti-climber is centered on the side sill. 

and this accounts for the scale 6" (0.125" actual) height difference.

What is your height from the rail head to the top of the car body? 

In case anyone is wondering...

Lionel and Atlas got this correct. 

Although Lionel put the anti-climber on the shell and Atlas put it on the Pilot casting  

MTH did, kinda. They split the ribs putting 3 on the shell and that leaves us to cut a pilot at the fourth rib and hope they line up.

Thanks guys.

Eyeballing the photo with the scale rule in my last post, it looks like my car body height is correct at 14 scale feet.  I see the problem with the anticlimber placement.  See photos.

Given the limitations of the K-Line units that I am starting with, I'm going to have to go for "look and feel" rather than prototype dimensions.   I think the appearance would be improved the most by lowering the shell 1/8."  This will improve the high water pants look and bring the body down to the pilot at it's current location.  I may have just enough flywheel room to simply shorten the shell mounting lugs.  If I can only get 1/16", I'll add a 1/16" spacer as Doug suggested.  Lowering at the truck level would require machining (no easy "add some washers" method).

I'm really pleased with the $15 Lionel Pilot.  It is nicely detailed, diecast (I expected plastic) and comes with coupler bars and one hose installed.  It matches the Milwaukee Road prototype F7s perfectly.  The prototype Santa Fe F3s have some additional cutouts for hoses, but it is a pretty good match otherwise. 

I'll post more pictures when I'm done.

Bob

You wanna see how bad it looks with the pilot 16" off the rail? 

Laidoffsick posted:

You wanna see how bad it looks with the pilot 16" off the rail? 

Not so good.

This morning I cut the mounting posts by 4 scale inches.  The flywheels should clear, but when I tested it, I had some binding.  It did not run well and current draw was 4.5 amps.  I loosened the shell screws and it dropped to 2.5 amps.   I ran out of time to troubleshoot it.

If I am successful at lowering the body, the pilot is still 12 scale inches off the railhead.  I'm planning on adding a spacer like you did to close the gap some more.

It's not going to pass for a Sunset/3rd Rail model, but fix mounting a new pilot and using Kadees will make a huge improvement. The big plus with this K-line set is the 6 motors.  I will be pulling eleven 21" K-line aluminum cars.  

Bob

Hey these look great!

Can you tell me more on how you did these?  I just finished updating my 2004 versions with closer coupling

Bob I've never seen the inside of the K-Line F units, but my Lionel F3s had 3 different spots that were rubbing the flywheels after I lowered them. The one that took me a bit to figure out was the cab interior roof that was used to house the two interior light bulbs. The shell was pushing that part of the "roof" down on top of the front flywheel. I also had to grind down a couple spots of the shell for the rear flywheel. The Dremel made quick work out of those, and I ended up removing the interior "roof" anyway because I took the lights out completely. I don't drive with the dome lights on  

Lowering the frame or shell usually causes some sort of issues within the powered units. Clearance being the biggest issue. It does eliminate or at least minimize the thickness of the spacer needed between the pilot and the shell. My MTH FTs are not being lowered because of the way the motor directly attaches to the truck block. It would be a major modification which would also cause a major clearance issue for the smoke unit. Same with my Lionel F7s, hence the .125 spacer. Though that is not prototypically accurate either, the fixed pilot with close coupled Kadees looks 100% better anyway. 

J Daddy posted:

Hey these look great!

Can you tell me more on how you did these?  I just finished updating my 2004 versions with closer coupling

 

J Daddy

They look great!

I used the stock pilot on the 1998 Lionel PA-1s.  I unscrewed the pilot and the coupler from the truck and cut off the pilot mounting tab with a Dremel disc.  I drilled 2 holes in the pilot and lined it up with the shell, marked, drilled and tapped 2 holes in the frame to mount it.  The holes in the pilot were a little oversized so I had some wiggle room to line things up.  I filled the gap with 2 strips of 3/16 wide styrene glued in with ACC and filled/sanded twice with Tamiya white putty.   Then drilled and tapped the pilot to mount a Kadee on spacers.

The hoses/lines are brass from Precision Scale drilled and mounted, the retaining brackets were made from brass strip with plastic NBW castings glued on.

I drilled out the nose for the lower headlight.  That is the original flat-topped incandescent bulb.  It is a press fit in the shell.  The original upper headlight now has an LED behind it running off a MARS simulator circuit I built.

Bob

Doug

There were some projections in the shell that I already flattened with the Dremel.  This evening, I'm going to take off the plastic cab wall/motor shield and re-assemble it and maybe I can see where it's binding.  I can get a good line of sight for the front motor at least.  The shield is slightly taller than the flywheel, so I thought I had enough room.

The engineers seem to use up every millimeter of vertical space for the motors and flywheels!

Bob

J Daddy

Here are some how-to pictures.

Bob

MARS circuit board with LED piggybacked on headlight:

Good Afternoon Gents, after seeing this posting several times, I also like the look of the lowered fixed pilots and I would love to do that to my trains down the line, but when you make the adjustment what is usually the new minimum curve that your train will run on once this is done.  I'm in the process of building my layout now with O-72 to O-81 curves on my bottom level but not to many wide curves on my upper levels and this is a concern if the modification is gonna change my minimum curve 036 - 042 range

I have run the Alco PA/PB-1 on O-72.  It is coupled to an 18" baggage car with a body mounted Kadee in front.  The nose Kadees are body mounted, while the tail ones and the B unit are mounted Talgo style, screwed to the old coupler mount on the truck. 

Lionel Sharks configured the same way (nose Kadees body mounted, tail ones and B unit Talgo style) run on O-54 and even O-45.

Bob

Greg I've never had any issues with 072 after close coupling my 4 axle engines. Some of the 6 axle engines had issues when running as an multiple unit consist, but opening up the sides of the Kadee draft gear box solved that problem.

I close coupled all my Lionel PA, FA, E6 and F3 units and I can negotiate O 72 curves with no problems.

Laidoffsick posted:

Greg I've never had any issues with 072 after close coupling my 4 axle engines. Some of the 6 axle engines had issues when running as an multiple unit consist, but opening up the sides of the Kadee draft gear box solved that problem.

Hey Doug, thanks for replying back, what I should have said was sometime back I heard that once you modified an F3 to a fixed pilot engine, it would no longer run on O-36, O-42.  It had to run on O-60 or better.  I've got about 10 F3's, one I had when I was 2 years old and for lack of knowledge and experience in doing a modification I would be devastated if I messed them up, however I would truly love to beautify it in the most prototypical way, all the hoses and kadees that I could use.  I hope that I clarified my situation a little bit more.  Talk to me !!  It's the smaller radius track that I still want to be able to run on, I would like the flexibility to ride as many radii small to large as I can, my upcoming layout has a little bit of everything and not for long stretches.

Body mounted Kadees with fixed pilots really limit your curves. Several guys including JDaddy got great results with truck mounted dummy couplers. Just depends on what you run your engines on, as to how you mou t the couplers.

Many times on my less attractive sets like the high water Lionel F7s, MTH F3s, and my new MTH FTs, I just fix the pilot and body mount Kadees to the nose of the A units. The rest retain their truck mounted 3 rail coupler because they are close coupled enough for me not to hassle with the conversion.

Space between diaphragms effect turning radius as well. They need a little space between them and flex in the curves. If they are tight with no flex... that equals derailments.

If you want to maintain tight curves, maybe you just wanna put Kadees on the lead engine for looks and leave the rest 3 rail.

Thanks guys for all the help.  Here's some progress photos.  I lowered the units, added new Lionel fixed pilots and Kadees.  I added a spacer to lower the pilot at LOS' recommendation.  Here is the before pic:

And the after:

Interestingly, Santa Fe had 2 different Freight Style pilots.  The Lionel one matches this prototype perfectly, while the P&D pilot matches another prototype at the beginning of this thread. 

Bob

Nice work Bob, looks great.

Just stumbled across this thread - lots of good info.

You certainly dis a great job on those K-Line Bob.  What have you been working on lately?

You guys have done it, again!  LOS & Co, you're always there just when I need you.  The Forum alone is worth thrice the price of a subscription to OGR in gratitude for expensive errors not committed and modification techniques that make O Gauge Railroading as close to prototype as currently possible.

3RS is highly addictive and have been converting everything MILW-UP-CGW, etc.  Now, the planets and eBay have finally aligned to grant me one of my heart's desires: "mint" Lionel F3s with TMCC and magne-traction in prototypical (non-flaming) Milwaukee Road colors.  I had a set of flamers back in the '70's but sold them off - the "flames" were a serious turn-off.  Now, I prepare to make my first covered wagon conversion with fear and trembling.  Thanks for the guidance!

Rapid Transit Holmes posted:

You guys have done it, again!  LOS & Co, you're always there just when I need you.  The Forum alone is worth thrice the price of a subscription to OGR in gratitude for expensive errors not committed and modification techniques that make O Gauge Railroading as close to prototype as currently possible.

3RS is highly addictive and have been converting everything MILW-UP-CGW, etc.  Now, the planets and eBay have finally aligned to grant me one of my heart's desires: "mint" Lionel F3s with TMCC and magne-traction in prototypical (non-flaming) Milwaukee Road colors.  I had a set of flamers back in the '70's but sold them off - the "flames" were a serious turn-off.  Now, I prepare to make my first covered wagon conversion with fear and trembling.  Thanks for the guidance!

There’s no fear here!

The Lionel F3s are some of the easiest to convert. 

Check out: Lowering Lionel F3s; https://ogrforum.com/.../lowering-lionel-f3s

For the Lionel F3s, once you lower them, the pilot should match up to the body curves.  What they did in the design to swing the pilot, was to slice the blueprint at the rivet line and raise her up. In general, I’ve found that MTH removes the piece from the blueprint to make their gap and thats what needs to be filled, and I think K-Line did the same.

If you’re going to use the P&D passenger pilot, this may be helpful: https://ogrforum.com/...-pilot-for-lionel-f3

thanks and good luck!

-Mario

CentralFan1976 posted:

Rapid Transit Holmes posted:

You guys have done it, again!  LOS & Co, you're always there just when I need you.  The Forum alone is worth thrice the price of a subscription to OGR in gratitude for expensive errors not committed and modification techniques that make O Gauge Railroading as close to prototype as currently possible.

3RS is highly addictive and have been converting everything MILW-UP-CGW, etc.  Now, the planets and eBay have finally aligned to grant me one of my heart's desires: "mint" Lionel F3s with TMCC and magne-traction in prototypical (non-flaming) Milwaukee Road colors.  I had a set of flamers back in the '70's but sold them off - the "flames" were a serious turn-off.  Now, I prepare to make my first covered wagon conversion with fear and trembling.  Thanks for the guidance!

There’s no fear here!

The Lionel F3s are some of the easiest to convert. 

Check out: Lowering Lionel F3s; https://ogrforum.com/.../lowering-lionel-f3s

For the Lionel F3s, once you lower them, the pilot should match up to the body curves.  What they did in the design to swing the pilot, was to slice the blueprint at the rivet line and raise her up. In general, I’ve found that MTH removes the piece from the blueprint to make their gap and thats what needs to be filled, and I think K-Line did the same.

If you’re going to use the P&D passenger pilot, this may be helpful: https://ogrforum.com/...-pilot-for-lionel-f3

thanks and good luck!

-Mario

 

Mario,

According to my web based research, the Milwaukee had only 4 four unit sets of F3s, 80ABCD through 83ABCD.  All their F3As had what I believe you are referring to as "freight pilots".

The units I've bought are 6-18138 (A unit) and 6-18139 (B unit) comprising the set 6-18140.  The A unit is equipped with Pullmore motors, not cans, therefore, the issues may be different from those discussed above and in the articles linked.  I have only my memories of those 1970's "flamers" and online photos of Pullmore F3s to work from, now, but it would appear that the motors are much larger and are mounted differently than the cans.  The pilots appear to be solid diecast, therefore, I believe that I'll be making spacers rather than lowering carbodies.  Do you or your cohorts have any experience lowering carbodies over Pullmore motors?  Enquiring minds want to know!

I agree with your complaints about MTH and would buy Lionel except they seldom make the models I want in the colors I crave.  The other advantage MTH has over Lionel is the fact that rubber tired wheel and axle sets can be replaced with solid wheel sets on most Premier diesel engines.  I'm phobic about rubber tires, hence my purchase of Lionel locomotives with "magne-traction" instead of later versions.

The next challenge will come when my CGW units arrive from MTH in the spring.  Thanks to your collective sage advice, I've already ordered "passenger" pilots from Lionel and they've already shipped.  I presume that I'll be using my spacer shaping skills gained on the MILW units.

I'm ordering your Lionel O scale EMD F3/F7 Coupler Mounts, parts A and B, for both sets of engines and I already have a variety of your Kadee spacers on hand.  Is there anything else I should order?

Lots of great detailed information and photos here.  Thanks to all.   Really nice job on those K Line F units, I have some in B & O that I haven't taken out and run in many years, now I am motivated to make them the first guinea pigs for surgery.  

Rapid Transit Holmes posted:

CentralFan1976 posted:

Rapid Transit Holmes posted:

You guys have done it, again!  LOS & Co, you're always there just when I need you.  The Forum alone is worth thrice the price of a subscription to OGR in gratitude for expensive errors not committed and modification techniques that make O Gauge Railroading as close to prototype as currently possible.

3RS is highly addictive and have been converting everything MILW-UP-CGW, etc.  Now, the planets and eBay have finally aligned to grant me one of my heart's desires: "mint" Lionel F3s with TMCC and magne-traction in prototypical (non-flaming) Milwaukee Road colors.  I had a set of flamers back in the '70's but sold them off - the "flames" were a serious turn-off.  Now, I prepare to make my first covered wagon conversion with fear and trembling.  Thanks for the guidance!

There’s no fear here!

The Lionel F3s are some of the easiest to convert. 

Check out: Lowering Lionel F3s; https://ogrforum.com/.../lowering-lionel-f3s

For the Lionel F3s, once you lower them, the pilot should match up to the body curves.  What they did in the design to swing the pilot, was to slice the blueprint at the rivet line and raise her up. In general, I’ve found that MTH removes the piece from the blueprint to make their gap and thats what needs to be filled, and I think K-Line did the same.

If you’re going to use the P&D passenger pilot, this may be helpful: https://ogrforum.com/...-pilot-for-lionel-f3

thanks and good luck!

-Mario

 

Mario,

According to my web based research, the Milwaukee had only 4 four unit sets of F3s, 80ABCD through 83ABCD.  All their F3As had what I believe you are referring to as "freight pilots".

The units I've bought are 6-18138 (A unit) and 6-18139 (B unit) comprising the set 6-18140.  The A

unit is equipped with Pullmore motors, not cans, therefore, the issues may be different from those discussed above and in the articles linked.  I have only my memories of those 1970's "flamers" and online photos of Pullmore F3s to work from, now, but it would appear that the motors are much larger and are mounted differently than the cans.  The pilots appear to be solid diecast, therefore, I believe that I'll be making spacers rather than lowering carbodies.  Do you or your cohorts have any experience lowering carbodies over Pullmore motors?  Enquiring minds want to know!

I agree with your complaints about MTH and would buy Lionel except they seldom make the models I want in the colors I crave.  The other advantage MTH has over Lionel is the fact that rubber tired wheel and axle sets can be replaced with solid wheel sets on most Premier diesel engines.  I'm phobic about rubber tires, hence my purchase of Lionel locomotives with "magne-traction" instead of later versions.

The next challenge will come when my CGW units arrive from MTH in the spring.  Thanks to your collective sage advice, I've already ordered "passenger" pilots from Lionel and they've already shipped.  I presume that I'll be using my spacer shaping skills gained on the MILW units.

I'm ordering your Lionel O scale EMD F3/F7 Coupler Mounts, parts A and B, for both sets of engines and I already have a variety of your Kadee spacers on hand.  Is there anything else I should order?

Hi, RTH!

They sure are some good looking units.

From what I can tell, they had the passenger (straight) pilots in this scheme.

I haven't played around with lowering the Pulmor-equipped units, so I can't offer anything there.  I'm sorry.

For the MTH units, the inspiration for my work with the P&D pilots came from John Sethian's work with his MTH F7s.  There's some instructions floating around here somewhere.

I modeled my pilot doors open because I didn't feel like modifying the doors to fit the smaller opening.

I'll actually be doing this again (someday) on another 1606, as I have a second set and want to have two powered A units, and this will become the trailing A #1607.  I'll have to remove the Protocraft and put the Kadee back in, though.

The A & B parts are for the coupler carrier on the rear of the A's and both ends of the B's.

Thanks!

Mario,

Thanks!  Now I know the difference between passenger and freight pilots!  40 years of railroading and I find out on the OGR Forum.  Who knew?  My only experience with F units was as a Brakeman on the CNW, weekends, when Fs from commuter trains were assigned to freight trains.  We'd usually start with about 4 units and creep into our terminal with only 2 still on line.  I was sometimes assigned to sit in the cab of a trailing unit to push the ground reset every time the unit dropped out.  Climbing those side ladders and walking between units was an adventure.  Fs are nice to look at but that's about it.

Lionel, which is usually good about parts diagrams, has nothing for the powered A unit or non-powered B.  However, there is a page and also a diagram on their website for an non-powered A (6-14562) listed in the 2002 catalog, four years after the original set was listed in 1998.  Strange.

This is industrial archaeology at its finest, just like tracing long abandoned rail lines!  Raiders of the Lost A Unit, Indiana Holmes at your service.  Nobody has more fun than us!