Very Cold Basement

You didn't mention what sort of central heating system you have.
If you've got a hot air system, with some vents in the basement, you might consider running the blower. Most hot air system's thermostats have an "on" position for the fan.

I am not familiar with the Mitsubishi system.

 

I have hot air with a couple of vents (hot and return) in the basement. My high efficiency furnace does not produce much waste heat to keep the basement warm. I supplement the central heat with a small electric (ceramic with a circulating fan) heater. I keep it warm enough to work in a sweatshirt. My basement is much smaller than Spence's.

Spencer.

first check the humidity and isolation. Then invest in any A/C system.

if the humidity is high will be necessary to reduce it then heat up the air.

hight humidity is around 80% or more. With hight humidity all the heaters will not work properly.

Andre.

 

Yes, I have installed many of these "mini splits".  The compressor unit sits outside the house, and you can run several of the wall units off one compressor.  All you hear inside is the quiet small fan in the wall unit, no window-air-conditiioner roar.

 

The first one I put in I was a little embarassed, big luxury having whole-house air conditioning, right?   I was very amazed.  They are extremely efficient, run for pennies a day.  I think mine are Fujitsu.  I ended up putting them in several locations, including the train loft.  Set it and forget it all summer. Air conditioning also controls humidity - the drain pipe runs a steady fast drip outside.  

 

The heating aspect runs on a heat exchanger principle, so it is most efficient if it is not too cold outside: above around 20 degrees, you will get heat for peanuts.  Below that (it's about 4 below zero outside as I write this) an electric heater has to kick in and it will be a little more expensive, but depending on where you are that may be a small percentage of the time.  I don't use it for primary heat source.  It's air conditioning with heat boost when needed.

 

53 x 45 is a big room, you will need to get both the outside unit and the wall units sized correctly; it will probably be more efficient to put in a wall unit at each end.  They are a little expensive to install because there's a lot of piping to run, and then the system has to be charged with the refrigerant, so it's not a DIY project.  But in my opionion they're worth it, I love these guys.  I have had zero problems with 4 systems in different locations over 5 years.

 

 

Close the vents (duct controls, if installed) to the unneeded upstairs areas and add some vents to the ducts(if you don't have them) for the basement.

 

Then add another thermostat in the basement. Could be a zone control add-on.

 

Should be a lot cheaper than a new system. heating guy could do it in a couple of hours.

Spence,

 When I finished our space above the garage two years ago (it's quite large, over 600 sq. ft.), I was originally going to tie into our HVAC but the company I had doing the job suggested the Mitsubishi unit. It's extremely energy efficient and does a superb job heating and cooling the room. It's our family room, so we use it a lot, and I couldn't be happier with the choice. Now I'm considering putting one in our garage, which his fully insulated and finished with drywall, because that's where the trains are. I'm in the same boat as you right now - I went out to work on the layout a little bit yesterday and it was 48 degrees in the garage. The portable heaters just weren't enough. I think you would be very happy with a Mitsubishi unit. 

Heat pumps have come a long way. A friend put one in last year. First thing I said was just that they don't work well when it is real cold out. Like I said they have come a long way, and cheap to run. I will find out what he put in today.

Spence, look at how cold it has been this winter. I would not go with anything related to a heat pump as in NE, may not be your best solution. Are you on a natural gas line? If you are. I would go with a gas space heater that will more than do the job for you. We have a 40,000 BTU space gas space heater that heats a large train room beautifully despite very cold outside temperatures in Maine (a lot colder than CT).

Good to see that you're doing ok Spence.

 

49 degrees in the basement seems warm. When we got back to CT Sunday after 7 weeks in Florida the basement was 35 degrees. I had only a few baseboard electric heaters "on", 44 degrees in the house.

 

We have the propane fireplaces in both the living room and basement plus a propane space heater in the kitchen. They provide the heat except for bedrooms and bathrooms when we are home.

Okay Spence.  I finally get a chance to comment on something that I know about.  First, run your furnace blower 24 hours a day.  If you can, add a return air grille close to the furnace in the basement.  It will tend to draw a lot of air from the basement.  Leave the door open from the first floor to the basement, or cut an opening into the door and add a grille or transfer louvre in the opening.  I run my furnace fan all the time, even in the summer. It does wonders to even out the temperatures throughout the house.  If your return air system is completely ducted back to the furnace, with a return air in each room, then close all the doors to the bedrooms and other rooms that have both a supply and return air register.  This also helps to even out the temperature, just by completely circulating the air throughout your whole house.

 

I know these things because I spent 50 years working, and adjusting airflows in commercial, industrial, educational and health care facilities.  It's called air balancing.  I run my house furnace as described above, and managed to overcome all hot and cold spots.

 

It really works, believe me.

 

Bob S.

C.W. Burfle; I have forced hot air but it barely keeps up with the house. That's why I installed the pellet stove.

A.G.; No problem with humidity. 20% right now. I summer I run A.C. With dehumidifier.

P.T.C. No natural gas line, just propane. Very expensive here.

Roger; what made you come back> Did you miss the cold & snow?  Thanks for the well wishes. If I hadn't come ill I would be missing all of this weather. Todays temp in Honolulu will be 80 degrees. Oh well, at least I'm upright.  

This is total nerd fest posting here.

 

Fluke, maker of various types of test equipment, including infrared (IR) sensors, had a half price sale on one particular unit, I think the VX2, normally $500 now $250. On eBay they were going for like $395 used. So I bought one.

 

And I received it, and I played with it, and now it sits in my basement. But ... I did scan around the basement, and no surprise, the area above ground and around the windows loses the most heat in the basement. The all metal windows are terrible. If I was going to do something about it, I would replace the windows with vinyl or something that does not conduct heat so readily.

Spence, We have oil heat, with the furnace set at 70 deg., the basement stays about 68 deg. so with a sweater it is relatively comfortable! although there is a lot of gas in the area, we don't have gas service! Talked to my brother who is a HVAC guy and he is seeing more of the Mitsubishi units installed, and people seem to be happy with them!

 

Uncle Al

Had that situation in my last home.  Fixed it by circulating heat down from above and cold up from below as Bob S. mentioned.  The other benefit was that I had 3.5" of ISO foam sprayed on all the walls and the band board.  That gave about 25r to the walls and eliminated the tiny pinhole cold air leaks.  Also great for sound control of the highway noise.

 

Target condition is 35% to 55% humidity and 55% degrees F.   Try to keep your stats steady to help stabilize the bench work/rail alignments.

 

Have a wood stove here in a much better setup but added several free standing humidifiers to address the dry wood stove heat.

 

Wood stoves are great, natural gas bill for Jan or Feb usually tops out at $90 monthly here in suburban Philly.

 

 

Spence,

We here in WI are also in the deep freeze, my basement doesn't get that cold but it was chilly. I added some (5) heating ducts to the basement, using the flex insulated ductwork with ceiling vents. this helped a lot. I actually close them in the summer other wise we could hang meat down here. I added a 1500 watt portable Duraflame infrared heater for the really cold days. Keeps it pretty comfy now.

Ray

I had a detached "garage" built about 5 years ago.  It is a 2 story structure with an actual garage bay for a car and my music studio on the first floor.  The second floor is my train room.  The building is about 30' x 28'.  I have 2 of the Mitsubishi units installed.  There is one in my music studio on the first floor, and I have a larger unit on the second floor for the train room.  They provide good air conditioning and heating.  Both rooms stay comfortable year round.

I don't know about the heater, but standing on my carpeted basement floor last evening in below zero weather my feet were freezing.  I was only there 10 minutes.  I have been trying to heat my daughter's art room down there better, but she has been working with a jacket on.  That is the room my layout will ultimately occupy.

I have a similar problem that presents with with a dilemma.  My trainroom is on my third floor, a full height (9' celings) finished attic.  I am very happy that I insulated it with R-38 all around celing and walls, but it still gets down to about 50 deg after a night like last.  I have two 15 amp (about 3300 watts total) circuits serving my trainroom and two 1500 "milk barn" heaters which help, but that leaves me only 300 watts for lights, power tools and of course - trains (my ZL-W and all the layout lights and five trains running normally takes about 180-250 watts, most probably for energy losses in the ZW-L). 

 

It's a cold day when I decide to forego running trains so i can run both heaters, like today!

Just run your Polar Express

I would love to but The Flyonel version is not here yet.

Ray

My layout has been moved to a two car attached garage.It usually is just a few degrees above outdoor temp. I currently use a kerosene heater. Within a couple hours it will mantain around 65 degrees with outdoor temps around 30. Eletric heaters would be too expensive.

Rob

Spence:

 

My brother lives in Middleboro, Mass. and had this type (Mitsubishi) of system installed when he finished his basement. He couldn't be happier....if you would like any specific questions answered, shoot me an email.

 

 The reviews here are good ones. The Mitsubishi is a small, quiet(wow is that even cycling kind of quiet) reliable, efficient easy to install system. A little higher in price, but should pay for itself really.

 

But if your cooling is up to par, why buy more?

And you do have a furnace/ac combo already right?(besides pellet).

 

Not knowing what you have already, its hard to tell you which direction to lean.

Is the pellet heat ducted to the furnace? Can it be? Do the pellets auto-feed? Thermostatically controlled options for those are out there.

 

Circulation is likely where you should concentrate. 

 

An automated control, multiple thermostats, and air zones could be set up for much less than the wall unit.

 Consider using the HVAC "fan on" setting for occasional circulation only too.

  This can also make the whole house more even in temp. A tech can wire you so a thermostat will kick the fan, and/or the heat/cooling on, at your selected temp settings if you like. Even make it run on low, then increase speed on demand. Doing this saved my brother a ton in gas, it saved money overall(easy to compare gas/electric cost in winter here), and comfort was much higher. But a full time fan, is not best for every house, it takes testing, and knowing your local utility costs

.

  Air balancing is a part of any good system too.(vent settings, for mixing of hot, and cold air, to get nicer warm air in larger amounts) An air handler might be added between you two systems too( a big air mixing/balancing box)

For a day of warmth now, try the "Fan on" now.

  Want to try a fun version of my old job? Set up a steamer, & fill the room with smoke(fan off), sit real still, have someone turn the fan on, and watch it(the air) flow.

 Thermostat down, fan switch on, full air circulation nearest the pellet heat, and in the basement,(close/block other upstairs vents(& maybe intake*), or let them get those rooms warmer too. Experiment for a better flow. An hour later I bet its lots nicer everywhere.

 

*Balance. It can't blow a lot of air, if it cant draw a lot. Where to draw is key, near the heat is needed most here, but, check the basement air intake vent. Hope its low, open it, (if there) and it will pull the cold off the floor. I've made a new "winter" blower/fan access cover, [and fitted it with an air filter] to increase winter basement flow down low too. 

Id say stay cool but.....later

The air being drawn back to the furnace will generally be equal to the air being supplied.   If the airflow is or seems to be insufficient, run the blower at a higher speed.  Generally direct drive furnaces have multiple speed settings.  Usually the black wire off the furnace fan motor is the highest speed setting.  If the furnace is a belt drive, then you can adjust the motor sheave (pulley) for greater fan speed.  Or, if not adjustable, the fan motor sheave could be replaced with a larger one.  You should check the amp draw of the motor to make sure you don't exceed the nameplate rating.  Although fractional horsepower motors usually have motor service factors of 1.35, you don't want to operate in this area, because the motor will operate hot, and shorten the life.  also, don't get the fan belt too tight.  Furnace fans typically use sleeve bearings, and they notoriously will not stand a lot of torque.  

 

I could go on forever, but if you need more information, email me with questions.  I would be glad to help.   Bob S.

Spence,

    Depending on your electric companies cost what you are considering might be a little expensive to run.  However if you have natural Gas in your home, use a mini Gas fire place and a dehumidifier and the basement will be just like you want it with a reasonable gas heating bill thru out the winter months.

PCRR/Dave 

 

Hey Spence, we've had 80 degrees every d**n day this week, you should just come pump some of this warm air out of CA cuz I'm really sick of it

Spence, you gave the square footage you also need the ceiling height for total room volume, at work we have balcony offices in the railcar repair shop, we used a carrier electric heater/ac units for heating and cooling these rooms, the room volume and air turns per hour may be needed, also do you have a drop ceiling, poured basement wall, block walls and is your basement completely below grade, is your basement finished with fiberglass insulation and do you have a walkin basement patio with sliding glass doors, heat loss from lack of insulation and these sliding door should also be a consideration, you am also consider a heating/ac contractor for advice, better to size the heating/ac unit correctly initially even though it may cost you somewhat more. If my memory is correct the unit operated on 220 volts and it had a dedicated line for the amp load, if you go this route check the amp and voltage requirements, also I would recommend a 30 pint or larger dehumidifier for the basement.

 

Hope my comments help you to resolve your issue. I mentioned carrier there are other manufacturers of these units.

 

John 

Spence - I had one in my office when I was working - worked great - no problems or maintenance required.

Spence, First off glad your feeling better. Second how many heat outlets in basement train room?  If you had the vents shut upstairs and added a second thermostat in the basement with a summer and winter toggle switch too switch from upstairs to downstairs thermostat could be done by you for under 50 bucks. depends on what a contractor says is feasible. Might work might not it all depends on furnace size and outlet size in basement.  My kids say I am the cheapest man alive, I say frugal,! nicer word! Hopefully you have an HVAC guy that's a friend. simple calculation run the #'s and it just may save you on the split system. They are excellent in my opinion very reliable for cooling just supplemental heat can get pricey with electric backup , but that may not be an issue for you  probably whirl the meter with that much space  to play with!!!

Spence, why not just add another pellet stove down in the basement?  One advantage to this would be that it will keep the first floor floor warmer and therefore you may not have to run the unit on the first floor as much.

 

Rick

Spence:  I overlooked one thing.  To the contrary of one of the comments, you do not need a dehumidifier.  With your internal humidity at only 20%, you need to add humidity to your house.  This will add to your overall comfort.  In the winter, if you can maintain the internal humidity somewhere between 30% and 40% you will feel warmer.  there will be less static electricity and your skin will not be as dry.  A good portable humidifier will help in this.  I have an Aprilaire humidifier on my furnace, and I also run a portable Honeywell that adds about 4 gallons of moisture each day.  Our house stays at about 35% RH in the winter.  

 

Zoning, as mentioned in several posts can help to solve, but it usually is not practical in homes.  The duct (supply) air system is normally not installed in a manner conducive to this type of system.  

 

I've tried to offer a solution, that does not require any major capital investment, and really can help to solve the cold basement.  If you have central AC, it will also help to maintain your home temperature within 2 or 3 degrees from the basement to the second floor.

Bob; I have a large humidifier in the living room because of the stove & that keeps it  40%.

Spencer!

move to FLA and case solved!!

Bob,

 

  Sent you e-mail with a question.

 

Art

I got one of these Dyson Heating/Cooling units for my basement.  It does an amazing job heating.  I have only had it 3 months so I can not comment on the cooling.

 

 

 Here is a link to Dyson's web site.

 

http://www.dyson.com/fans-and-...ers/fan-heaters.aspx

 

They are on sale at Bed, Bath & Beyond $100 off.

Santa Fe Jim; How big an area are you heating?

INSULATION:

Insure all your rim joists are well insulation. This is a major source of heat loss. 

Check for any cracks between the foundation cement walls and the wood walls and fill them (caulk, FG or spray foam).

Rim Joists options:

Can use FG batts.

Can use rigid foam boards: must cut each to fit.

Can use a combo of the above two.

Have it professionally sealed with spray foam.

 

Google rim joists for how to's ,etc.

 

My basement is around 70 degrees.

A couple heater vents cut into the ducts will work.

'Ask this old house' just covered those wall heating/cooling units and they had high praise on them.

Sounds like the pellet stve is the problem!

Fred

Spence,

Thanks for adding the info on your pellet stove.

I heat my whole house from my basement heat where my layout is located.

I heat with a Rice Coal Stove.

It has  a 100 pound hopper that usually lasts me 2-3 days depending on how cold it is outside. My comment is that I also dropped to about 20-24 on my Humidty Meter. I was getting worried that it was too low. What I did notice is that my Litchen is drying up. I sprayed it with some water and it seems to be ok for now.

I have 2 whole/vents in my finished ceiling with bathroom fans that pushes the hot air up stairs. Temp down here is 75 and upstairs is anywhere from 68 to 70 degrees.

My heat bill for 4 tons of coal this year was $840.00 delivered.

My basement is finished at 26 X 40