VL SP GS-4 4449 ..Trouble?...*EDIT* Legacy signal problem??

Got any conductive oil? Some conductive oil on the pickup roller pins may help.

The last new engine I bought  the legacy H10 behaved similarly out of the box. I put a couple drops of conductive oil on the roller pins and the problem never returned. Its seemed like maybe there was leftover debris in side the rollers from manufacturing, just a guess.

Its an easy first step in the process of elimination anyway.

@RickO posted:

Got any conductive oil? Some conductive oil on the pickup roller pins may help.

The last new engine I bought  the legacy H10 behaved similarly out of the box. I put a couple drops of conductive oil on the roller pins and the problem never returned. Its seemed like maybe there was leftover debris in side the rollers from manufacturing, just a guess.

Its an easy first step in the process of elimination anyway.

No I dont Rick but now its on the list!! Thanks

I noticed the same thing with my GS 1 and my track is very clean.I noticed that the engine hesitated in 3 Spots and looked at the track and there was a bit of Black on the Rail and got the acetone out and wiped the affected areas,started the engine up and no more hesitation.

Mikey

@RickO posted:

Got any conductive oil? Some conductive oil on the pickup roller pins may help.

The last new engine I bought  the legacy H10 behaved similarly out of the box. I put a couple drops of conductive oil on the roller pins and the problem never returned. Its seemed like maybe there was leftover debris in side the rollers from manufacturing, just a guess.

Its an easy first step in the process of elimination anyway.

Thanks for the tip. I’ll get some of this and try it out. I have had some similar signal issues but only with certain engines. They are mostly ones with ERR electronics.

@Hancock52 posted:

Thanks for the tip. I’ll get some of this and try it out. I have had some similar signal issues but only with certain engines. They are mostly ones with ERR electronics.

Which engines? It might be an antenna issue rather than the ERR part. Atlas F's seem to run flawlessly with them.

We have used this Excelle lube or the Bachmann on pickup rollers, depends upon what the local hobby shop has in stock.

@mikey posted:

I noticed the same thing with my GS 1 and my track is very clean.I noticed that the engine hesitated in 3 Spots and looked at the track and there was a bit of Black on the Rail and got the acetone out and wiped the affected areas,started the engine up and no more hesitation.

Mikey

It was a signal issue .. I have a top loop and I had to install a ground plane .. runs perfect now

@BobbyD posted:

Which engines? It might be an antenna issue rather than the ERR part. Atlas F's seem to run flawlessly with them.

We have used this Excelle lube or the Bachmann on pickup rollers, depends upon what the local hobby shop has in stock.

The engines are mostly 3rd Rail with ERR factory installed plus one B unit that I converted to ERR sound with one of their old dummy engine boards that can drive the sound. One of them did have antenna wire detached but the problem was more general, unfortunately.

I did encounter the dreaded ground plane issue after a bank of ceiling LED lights was added to the lighting circuit that the track was powered by. In the end I had to use a different circuit.

I did not know that Excel made a conductive oil! For all I know I might have used it in the past.

My Vision GS-4 immediately was sent packing to Lionel for repair. Same signal issues on clean track and a good signal. I tried everything, resets and several different loads into the Cab-2. Hopefully it returns in one piece without paint issues.

@Al Nevada posted:

My Vision GS-4 immediately was sent packing to Lionel for repair. Same signal issues on clean track and a good signal. I tried everything, resets and several different loads into the Cab-2. Hopefully it returns in one piece without paint issues.

Was the headlight flickering when it did it? .. same track runs 5 other legacy engines and they where all fine till the GS-4 .. ground plane fixed that no problem

@Al Nevada posted:

My Vision GS-4 immediately was sent packing to Lionel for repair. Same signal issues on clean track and a good signal. I tried everything, resets and several different loads into the Cab-2. Hopefully it returns in one piece without paint issues.

Real bummer, that. I do wonder sometimes how many of these control issues are due to individual layout wiring and signal characteristics, but I have found that different models sometimes are a lot more sensitive than others.

Yes, headlight flickering. I have no issues with any other locos. It probably is the pickup problem described above. I have ground plane wires throughout. I will try RickO's suggestion of conductive oil if the loco still has the problem when it returns. My other GS-4 Daylight seems to be OK. The GS-4 with the problem is from the set.

Picked up some Bacman E-Z lube RickO  suggested a while back.  Just use that on the rollers instead of regular lube.  Lube the axles and side rods with light lube before I run anything new.

I have the flickering light issue with my GS4 along with other legacy control issues whenever the Dynamo smoke is turned on. I turn the dynamo smoke off and everything works fine. However,  if I use the lioncheif app the engine runs fine even with the dynamo smoke turned on. I emailed Lionel about this issue  a week ago and I’m still waiting for a reply.

Dave

@Oilburner posted:

I have the flickering light issue with my GS4 along with other legacy control issues whenever the Dynamo smoke is turned on. I turn the dynamo smoke off and everything works fine. However,  if I use the lioncheif app the engine runs fine even with the dynamo smoke turned on. I emailed Lionel about this issue  a week ago and I’m still waiting for a reply.

Dave

To my mind .. and I might not know  anything .. the flickering light means signal issue.. I used the app and mine ran fine .. headlight still flickered but it ran.. I installed the ground plane and it’s all good now but I think they stuffed a lotta stuff into this Engine and it’s causing the signal issue .. I ran 5 other Legacy Engines on same track fine then this .. I’m just glad that I was able to fix it..your dynamo smoke unit it causing signal interference?.. does it do it all the time ?.. at same spot on track ? I did have to step back and think some like I would if working on antique tractors or Shelbys and once I did that I got it squared away .. When the light is flickering hold your hand over the engine .. light stops flickering and it’s definitely something you can fix with ground plane sounds dumb but what the **** give it a try

Dave S

@Oilburner posted:

I have the flickering light issue with my GS4 along with other legacy control issues whenever the Dynamo smoke is turned on. I turn the dynamo smoke off and everything works fine. However,  if I use the lioncheif app the engine runs fine even with the dynamo smoke turned on. I emailed Lionel about this issue  a week ago and I’m still waiting for a reply.

Dave

What's your power source?  How many volts?  There are a lot of smoke units going so you better have a transformer up to the task.

@Snkbittin posted:

It was a signal issue .. I have a top loop and I had to install a ground plane .. runs perfect now

Good to hear, glad you got it fixed!

The flickering headlight is the indicator of a weak TMCC signal.  I have not experienced an instance where track cleaning or conductive oil on pickup rollers solved signal problems (the TMCC track signal component comes to the RxLC board from the track via the wheels, not the rollers), but clean track eliminates other potential problems when diagnosing signal issues.  What remains  is determining why the loco's antennas can't get a good signal from the "ground plane".  Any rails or power feed wires that carry the TMCC track signal that are located above the loco are likely to overpower the signal coming from the house wiring ground plane.  Inverse square rules, and a track signal coming from a source 2" above a loco's antenna is going to negate reception from the ground plane wiring several feet away in the walls and ceiling.  Adding a ground plane wire is the first step in resolving the weak signal problem.

In addition to tracks overhead on multi-level layouts, I find metal accessories sharing the outside rails for power are a likely culprit.  Signal bridges are the worst offenders and must have power isolated from track power or be rewired so the metal frame is connected to the hot rail.  Even a ground wire on a plastic accessory can cause a signal issue.

Plus there is the variability of signal reception based on the antennas and the RxLC boards in the loco.  That's a most frustrating aspect when a layout runs great except for one or two locos.

@Tracker John posted:

The flickering headlight is the indicator of a weak TMCC signal.  I have not experienced an instance where track cleaning or conductive oil on pickup rollers solved signal problems (the TMCC track signal component comes to the RxLC board from the track via the wheels, not the rollers), but clean track eliminates other potential problems when diagnosing signal issues.  What remains  is determining why the loco's antennas can't get a good signal from the "ground plane".  Any rails or power feed wires that carry the TMCC track signal that are located above the loco are likely to overpower the signal coming from the house wiring ground plane.  Inverse square rules, and a track signal coming from a source 2" above a loco's antenna is going to negate reception from the ground plane wiring several feet away in the walls and ceiling.  Adding a ground plane wire is the first step in resolving the weak signal problem.

In addition to tracks overhead on multi-level layouts, I find metal accessories sharing the outside rails for power are a likely culprit.  Signal bridges are the worst offenders and must have power isolated from track power or be rewired so the metal frame is connected to the hot rail.  Even a ground wire on a plastic accessory can cause a signal issue.

Plus there is the variability of signal reception based on the antennas and the RxLC boards in the loco.  That's a most frustrating aspect when a layout runs great except for one or two locos.

I got all that ! I’m just glad that’s all it was

I’m better understanding all the idiosyncrasies of this stuff .. this forum has been priceless with info and help

thank you

Thank you very much Dave S! I think you nailed it! I’m almost  positive that the dynamo smoke unit is somehow causing the signal issue when it’s switched on. I also took your advice and put my hand over the  engine and it seemed to instantly correct it. To  be precise, I put my hand over the area of the switches and that seemed to be the spot that makes it work correctly. Now I need to know where I go from here. I  currently got this engine on a 8 ft test track powered by a 180 watt powerhouse. I’m very tempted to pull off the shell. If only I knew which screws to remove. Btw.... I’m very new to the 3-rail world.

Dave D

Now smoke units are interfering with the Legacy signal?

Sheesh, what next?

@Oilburner posted:

Thank you very much Dave S! I think you nailed it! I’m almost  positive that the dynamo smoke unit is somehow causing the signal issue when it’s switched on. I also took your advice and put my hand over the  engine and it seemed to instantly correct it. To  be precise, I put my hand over the area of the switches and that seemed to be the spot that makes it work correctly. Now I need to know where I go from here. I  currently got this engine on a 8 ft test track powered by a 180 watt powerhouse. I’m very tempted to pull off the shell. If only I knew which screws to remove. Btw.... I’m very new to the 3-rail world.

Dave D

Well now you know it’s a signal issue .. one thing I didn’t know and now fixed is you can’t have your command base plugged into a power strip .. needs to be plugged into wall outlet .. try stringing a wire that goes to ground prong in outlet .. that’s how I fixed mine but I have a top loop that was causing interference.. turn off any light fixtures that send out static .. all you can do is knock things off the list .. it gets part of the signal from wheels thru the track so clean track I’m just glad I didn’t have to send mine back .. I’m not sure there’s anything they can do about it now .. remember they are toys and not supposed to make us crazy ;-) I’m also new to the 3 rail .. well model trains period been 40 yrs since I had HO as a kid