Wall Street Journal - End of the Line for Model Trains? Aging Hobbyists Trundle On

Seacoast posted:

Silly article the more I think about it.. Does anyone still read Newspapers would have been a better byline?

What is the average age and demographic of the average Wall Street Journal reader? He is likely an average white male, 55 years old, who commutes on Metro North everyday!

The Wall St Journal is a DINOSAUR! Right? A Newspaper...? It like the kettle calling the Pot Black etc.. Har Har , laugh out loud 

Yep just say Digital it's everywhere, from OGR online forum to the insides of my digital controlled trains!

This is probally the biggest reaction the 100 year Journal has received to this Model Train article buried in the tiny lifestyles section! LOL

For those who don't get the WSJ print edition, this article was on front page of today's paper, February 11.  Yes, a human interest/lifestyle story, but still on the front page. 

And while newspapers are somewhat of an anachronism in today's digital age, the WSJ is currently the national's largest newspaper with a daily circulation of 2.4 million compared to 1.7 million for  USA Today which places second.

I think it's great that the hobby is interesting and important enough to merit that kind of coverage.

Agreed Jim, WSJ is the exception like a Train magazines, specialty or Niche magiazines tend to fair better with a focused audience. For immediate stock quotes forget WSJ or even print news when I get instant news via iPhone.

The same applies to Trains news I can get instant feedback of information here on OGR website or thru email updates.

My local NH newspapers are dying; circulation cut in half and my daily went from 6 days to 3 and from 50 pages to maybe 20 pages, that's Gannett. Same can be said for the Boston Globe and NYT a mere former shell of themselves.

 Thank you for sharing the WSJ link today.

I read print on paper, I like it that way and I like or did like to read newspapers. Journalism has declined significantly in today's world but the Wall Street Journal is one of the better ones. Last night before I called it a day I scrolled through the WSJ webpage and saw the article headline. I  really didn't believe what I saw !!  I had to go back and read and listen to the video interview.  I don't go along with the gloom and doom but I was impressed that one of my favorite hobbies was getting that attention !!  Wow !!!  In the public eye, could hardly believe but then I thought of my attendance at some Xmas  shows and  train shows with all the kids and families there and understood. What we, the hard core RR hobbyists forget, I think, that trains are fun to a lot of people but not the most important thing in their young lives.  I understand that-people have other priorities in today's busy world.

On a similar theme.

This was in the news yesterday on this side of the pond.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35538800

twenty thousand just attended my annual local train show and they weren't all train geeks that still live with mommy.  The hobby is fine and will be for a long time to come.

The current generations of teens and tweeners may be infatuated with their hand held devices........

But my grandkids  ages 6, 5 and 3 love my trains....love their Lego Duplo Trains, their Geo Trains etc. I bought none of these....they asked for them. Hand held devices are boring to them. They want hands on stuff. Maybe I have really odd grandkids......

I know that there are many reasons folks are into this hobby and maybe I relate to my own personal experience too much and project it onto many others, but I believe that we are in a boon of O-gauge model railroading because of our age group, 65 in my case, and what occurred in our childhood. Lionel Trains were the in toy back then and many of us got our first sets at a very young age. We may have gotten into making layouts, but they were pretty simple and they were limited. At some stage, those trains were boxed up and we went on with our lives. In my case, there was always the desire to build a railroad, but life never allowed me to do that....until I retired. Many like me now had the time, the funds and less family responsibilities to do that. That is the boon right now...folks with desire, extra money, and extra time to spend on all the new stuff out, "new toys"!  But the seed of that desire came from those toy trains back in the mid-century, 40, 50, or 60 years ago. That piece is not happening today. There are some train sets being sold for younger kids, but it is not the "in" thing. There are basically no train advertisements on TV, radio, etc. Ads are focused to us and basically in publications that they know we read. So, I do believe that it will decline as we pass on. I am enjoying the boon we have now.

Rick

A positive .... 20,000 folks .... families .... at Trainfest in Milwaukee.

A negative ... young/new members enthusiastically show their semi-scale engines on the OGR hi-rail, o27 and traditional 3-rail o gauge forum, and some people feel the need to "rain on their parade" by pointing out the model's lack of prototypicalness.

Monthly magazines ... I enjoy reading a hard copy in my recliner.

News is real time ... I have a digital subscription to the NY Times.

superwarp1 posted:

twenty thousand just attended my annual local train show and they weren't all train geeks that still live with mommy.  The hobby is fine and will be for a long time to come.

Train geeks stopped "living with mommy" long time ago, they are self-sufficient.  You must be thinking of recent college graduates. 

Pete

EBT Jim posted:

A positive .... 20,000 folks .... families .... at Trainfest in Milwaukee.

A negative ... young/new members enthusiastically show their semi-scale engines on the OGR hi-rail, o27 and traditional 3-rail o gauge forum, and some people feel the need to "rain on their parade" by pointing out the model's lack of prototypicalness.

I can't "like" the highlighted part of your post enough.   Unfortunately, we see it everyday around here from the usual 4 curmudgeons who must be bored in retirement.

All in all, I think the hobby is just fine.   It's just different than it was 20, 30, 50 years ago.

We also need to stop painting kids in a box that they're all "hands-off, and not into hobbies that require building or imagination."     My direct, one on one experience working with kids over the last 25 years show me otherwise.

Sure, the stereotype is out there, and we can all find some kids who are lazy and glued to a video game.   There are more hands-on hobbies out there than trains, and those hobbies are doing just fine in the 10 to 25 year old age group.

(Quick aside: the number one demographic of video game purchasers and players is athletes aged 15 to 22.  Not exactly a lazy group).

Finally, for a very large part of the general population, trains are not as relevant as they were to many of us who grew up around them, or in areas of the country where we saw, or rode them everyday.

My take on all this, is we all need to stop worrying about what lies ahead for a hobby, and simply have fun in our own way, and not worry about the other guy.

I rarely tell kids they cant play with my trains the exception is usually the insanely expensive ones while im running with the club at shows. I want them to play with them and get excited about the experience. I remember when I was a kid lusting after some of those semi scale trains that were way out of my reach, never smash a kids dreams, tell him how cool it is and how he can make it cooler.

The train hobby has had one long incredible run.  Trains have been popular for over 100 years and are still popular today. When the digital age came about, that signaled a big decline in interest of all hobbies in general. It gave people something simple, easy to do,inexpensive and the focus went away from the once high tech hobby that lasted so long.

I see this hobby surviving but not as we know it today.  Younger people are entering this hobby at a much slower pace than in past years. This hobby is  expensive and our young people are far less prosperous than the baby boom generation. The hobby also requires a degree of manual dexterity that seems to be getting lost.

There are millions of model trains that will be left behind when our generation goes to rest. What will become of all the trains? My best guess is that when our children reach middle age some may begin to take an interest in dads old layout. Trains could possibly develop into a new animated historical art form. Change is inevitable but we have been and will be leaving something good behind for future generations to enjoy. What they do with it is anyone's guess.

EBT Jim posted:

A positive .... 20,000 folks .... families .... at Trainfest in Milwaukee.

A negative ... young/new members enthusiastically show their semi-scale engines on the OGR hi-rail, o27 and traditional 3-rail o gauge forum, and some people feel the need to "rain on their parade" by pointing out the model's lack of prototypicalness.

 

Amen!

My sons, grandkids  (boy & girl)  & a niece in grad school are into trains even if its only at Christmas or when they visit me.  Trains will survive as long as the basic introduction is there.  I put my father's trains away until I had kids.  I now spend a lot more $$$ than I ever thought that I would.  Lucky that I was into electronics & computers for work (semiconductor & PC Bd manufacturing).  I got back into it because we made some prototype boards for MTH and I was given a PS1 0-8-0 N&W coal drag set which I thought was cool because of the sounds.  Things have come a long way since then.

They talk about the guy in Murrysville, PA.  I need to see him.  hes 20 min from me!  LOL.  im excited about that stuff.  kids these days are losing their imagination and not creating things.  my girl is 8 and she is into all sorts of things.  Im 41.  I love trains, but she isn't really into them.  Legos she likes! 

Lionel still makes authentic trains and associated gear for serious hobbyists, who account for about 60% of sales. Owned by the private-equity firm Guggenheim Partners, Lionel doesn’t disclose financial results.

Is that who owns LIONEL??  Where are my "associated gear"s??

Excellent Story & video, from the Wall Street Journal.

Screenshot from WSJ Video, Click on screenshot to enlarge.

Gary - Cheers from The Detroit and Mackinac Railway

Texas Pete posted:

superwarp1 posted:

twenty thousand just attended my annual local train show and they weren't all train geeks that still live with mommy.  The hobby is fine and will be for a long time to come.

Train geeks stopped "living with mommy" long time ago, they are self-sufficient. 

Well, I know plenty  of 'train geek' types (both into full size or models) who live with their parents, long into their adult years.

Stereotypes rarely ever get formed out of thin air with no reality to support them. Lots of people into trains are a little... off. There's no more wrong with that than the 'off' types into other hobbies. But declaring it not even being the case at all is silly because you only have to go to a model train show to see why the stereotype still exists... My wife said it best when she said she didn't like going to gun shows with my because many of the people at them scare her and she doesn't like train shows for the smell and lack or social skills of the people who attend them.

We're not all geeks living with Mommy, nor all at retirement age (the last op session I went to, nobody was there older than mid 40s), but we need to accept that fewer people are ever going get into this stuff than in generations past.

Other hobbies are losing numbers, though. I know a guy into model rockets and he said he's watched that hobby step off a cliff as nobody new is getting into it for the most part. A co-worker into RC planes tells me the same thing. But they all say none of these are vanishing anytime soon.

It's not just the internet and videogames. Kids have to have money to get into this stuff, and it's harder for kids to find part-time jobs anymore. And young adults are being worked to death, by companies that intentionally understaff so they can make overtime a normal part of every week (to avoid hiring more people and paying them benefits). Young adults simply don't have the time and money to do hobbies like they used to.

But to think model trains are going forever, that's just silly. Look at the hobbies way older than this and they're doing sort of okay. I know a guy who builds model ships, which isn't a new hobby. He says it's declining, but far from dead.

Frankly, I think it was just a slow news day at WSJ...

Let's see, I was born in 1963 and Lionel, "went out of business in 1969", but have somehow " struggled" on for 47 years. A hobby that some thought I would "outgrow" has been going strong for 48 years. At everyplace I have worked in or visited, and that includes some places where you would never expect to find a model railroader, I have always found at least one. Since I was a kid I have heard this hobby is dying and every time it has reinvented itself. Yes, I play with trains and yes, maybe some day the hobby will die out, but I doubt it, it will just reinvent itself as it always has.

All the best,

Mike

In general I have found future demise predictions of anything by anybody to have one thing in common. They are all eventually proven wrong. The idea that as baby boomers pass away the hobby will pass away with them is too simplistic. It's still the greatest hobby on earth and who says that us 50 to 60 year olds won't be replaced by new 50 to 60 year olds looking for a more meaningful pastime. In the latest issue of OGRR magazine there is an article about that very thing occurring.

This was published today on You Tube, from the Lionel Corporation. This company is not putting all their railroad spikes in one bucket. FasTrack to Mega Tracks. Check it out.

Gary – Cheers from The Detroit and Mackinac Railway

Nice sentiments expressed here. Now someone needs to quote them in the comments on the WSJ article. Most of the oldest ones are of those expressing fond memories of the hobby growing up, but the few most recent (that most people who actually read comments are going to see) are decidedly negative:

"I never understood why Lionel survived.  Do they still make those awful O-scale 3-rail tracks with ties spaced out?  Very unrealistic "toy trains" not model railroading.  What made them fun?  When I was a kid they were very common.  All kids ever wanted to do in those days was to stage crashes."

Maybe someone with a WSJ login needs to refute the above quote. I'll give him the part about railroads not being highly visible in people's lives, but that line about "nobody rides Amtrak" is an eye-rolling exaggeration at best.

---PCJ

Good point, Scott.

 I totally dropped out of train hobby when I was about 15.   Sports, girls, cars, and the beginning of my now professional music involvement took the place of train time.

I got back into it when I was about 35 in 1997.   I asked my father if I could pull out all our (his) old Lionel stuff from all our Christmas layouts in the 60's and early 70's, always kept in boxes in pristine condition.

I bought new track, this new-fangled thing called TMCC, and away I went.   By that time I had the time, space, and money to play with trains the way I wanted to.

The pattern continued with my daughter, who was born almost 22 years ago.   By her 3rd birthday, the annual 5x9 train layout went up while she slept Christmas eve.   Designed to exactly replicate what my dad set up for us in the 60's: right down to the the ping-pong table as a base on the floor, with Super-O track, and our (his) old sets that ran on those Christmas mornings.

The next year, my daughter was excited to help add a 4x8 extension to my layout in the train room, where I followed her design ideas to build a fun town for her, replete with a Girl's Train set.  Make believe animals, glitter, pink trees, and so forth, she (we) had a blast for the next several years.  By the time she was 8 or 9, she was running TMCC with ease.

Later, she figure out the MTH DCS system remote on her own.  Easy!

Then she turned 12 to 13, and gymnastics, cheer leading, and boys came along.   She'd still come up to the train room now and then, but that wasn't her priority.

Fast forward:   She's about to graduate college.   When she is home for a break, we do get some good daddy-daughter time in, including playing with the trains.

She already knows (and told me) that I won't be getting rid of trains.    I am sure the cycle will repeat itself.

From my grandfather, to my father, to me, and then to my daughter, and any kids that may come along.

All is well in the train world.

Sure, maybe O gauge isn't the so called go-to big item any more for gifts, but we really are in a great place with what's being offered today.

HO and N stores near me are still packed with dads (and moms) and kids on the weekends.

No gloom and doom for me!

jim pastorius posted:

I really think Thomas the Train and Polar Express have brought more kids(and adults) in to the hobby lately more than anything else.

Clearly true. It's hard to overestimate the positive effect Thomas the Tank Engine and Polar Express have had on the hobby. Among other things, seeds have been planted for future growth.

Matt Makens posted:

I rarely tell kids they cant play with my trains the exception is usually the insanely expensive ones while im running with the club at shows. I wasnt them to paly with them and get excited about the experience. I remember when I was a kid lusting after some of those semi scale trains that were way out of my reach, never smash a kids dreams, tell him how cool it is and how he can make it cooler.

100% agree!   I let my two kids 2 & 5 play with the trains all the time. I do teach them the correct way to handle them though.  95% they are very good with them. I'm running postwar, so it's a bit more forgiving to a child's touch. I get them involved in everything that I do w/ the trains.  My daughter Lucia is helping me with wiring the layout & my son Lorenzo helped me pick out certain accessories that he likes.  The key is to get them involved!   They actually learn something too. Lucia was talking to me the other day & mentioned alligator clips - she picked that up from helping with the wires. ALWAYS take the time to explain & include them. I know my pop did when we built layouts together years ago.   Will this turn into a life long love of the hobby for either of them? I have no idea, but if you don't share your knowledge & let the kids have fun, they will never get the chance to develop  a love of the trains. Instead, it will just be another thing they are not allowed to play with or touch. 

breezinup posted:

jim pastorius posted:

I really think Thomas the Train and Polar Express have brought more kids(and adults) in to the hobby lately more than anything else.

Clearly true. It's hard to overestimate the positive effect Thomas the Tank Engine and Polar Express have had on the hobby. Among other things, seeds have been planted for future growth.

Correct - My son got a Polar express & Thomas set this past Christmas. Stuff like that helps plant the seeds.  

Nick12DMC posted:

 

On a similar theme.

This was in the news yesterday on this side of the pond.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35538800

Looks like, at Corgi anyway, it's just a bump in the road due at least partly to computer/business changes and such, after having a strong 4th quarter 2015. Hope nothing serious - I collect some of their fine diecast WWII and WWI aircraft, and hope they continue strong.

RailRide posted:

"I never understood why Lionel survived.  Do they still make those awful O-scale 3-rail tracks with ties spaced out?  Very unrealistic "toy trains" not model railroading.  What made them fun?  When I was a kid they were very common.  All kids ever wanted to do in those days was to stage crashes."

Maybe someone with a WSJ login needs to refute the above quote. I'll give him the part about railroads not being highly visible in people's lives, but that line about "nobody rides Amtrak" is an eye-rolling exaggeration at best.

Most news story comments are negative, it seems.

But that said, if that quote was from a general member of the public (and it might not have been), maybe someone should be paying attention to what they're saying instead of trying to find a way to argue against it.

As for people thinking nobody rides Amtrak anymore, that is indeed the perception in the public. Amtrak doesn't run to everywhere and some people could be hundreds of miles from the nearest track served by Amtrak. Where I grew up, Amtrak service lasted less than a decade and was often late and came into my hometown in the middle of the night, to a depot in a horrible part of town. Nobody I knew did ride it. Ask around your co-workers who aren't train fans. How many of them ride Amtrak? I just did ask everyone in my area (over 20 people) and there's good Amtrak service here, and I'm the only one who has ever ridden it. So if someone from the public says nobody rides it, that might be accurate for them.

Again, it's always better to look into why those comments are being made as opposed to looking for reasons to dismiss them.

FWIW - as of 3:30pm the related video to the news story is #1 under the "Most Popular Videos" heading if you scroll down in the R hand column....

Some still ride Amtrak. Here in Albany about 900,000 a year       do, many to NYC, Canada, and the west.

Its a nice ride into Penn Station.

Fridge56Vet posted:

FWIW - as of 3:30pm the related video to the news story is #1 under the "Most Popular Videos" heading if you scroll down in the R hand column....

Thanks! I was finally able to at least see the video.

Tom

Here is the e-mail I sent to the author, a Mr. Haggerty.

Mr. Haggerty,

I would have thought for a front page article in the WSJ, you would have done enough research to provide your readers with a more balanced approach. It seems to me, from the sources you quoted, the ship of model Railroaders is listing and soon will slip beneath the waves. Regrettably, for your readers not into trains, your article is simply a distorted characterization of the state of the hobby.

At train shows all over the country, thousands of participants are children and parents of children charmed by trains and model railroading. Is the average age of participants increasing? I do believe it is, but so is the total number of participants many of whom are middle aged converts and retirees looking for a fantastic hobby.

The next time you want to do some decent research on a subject like this, go to the Big E Train Show in Springfield, Massachusetts or any of the other mega shows and interview someone under the age of 75.

As a retired teacher of AP Economics and a model Railroader all my life, I have never been so optimistic about the hobby. Mr. Haggerty, you ought to get out more.

Eliot Scher

audi posted:

Some still ride Amtrak. Here in Albany about 900,000 a year       do, many to NYC, Canada, and the west.

Its a nice ride into Penn Station.

Yes, there are high concentrations of people who do ride Amtrak in certain parts of the country (especially along the NE corridor).

But there are even higher concentrations of people who have no service anywhere near them or don't have commuter options via Amtrak.

So the comment on 'nobody rides' Amtrak could be valid for someone, say, living in a place where it goes nowhere near.

Look at this map. Note the dotted lines, which I know a few of them are routes that aren't currently being served by Amtrak at all (for example, between New Orleans and Jacksonville).

There's a lot of open space between those lines...

Eliot,

  Nice job. Even smaller shows manage to have good attendance.

Tom

I saw the article on their web page awhile ago. Howard still mumbles !  Eliot-nice !!

I heard the exact same thing in the 70's. Then MPC came along and Lionel was back in business. Don

I think we've all heard the 'sky is falling' more than once. I remember hearing it as a kid in the early 70s, myself. But here are two some inescapable points:

• The entire model railroad hobby isn't made of just Lionel
• The hobby would survive Lionel imploding even if it did  happen, even for the 3-rail folks

Carpe diem.

I agree with p51, the whole model train world doesn't start and end with an  L but that isn't to say it wouldn't be missed.

jim pastorius posted:

I agree with p51, the whole model train world doesn't start and end with an  L but that isn't to say it wouldn't be missed.

I agree with the first part of that, but for some of us that are into vintage prewar and postwar stuff (not the repros), there is enough quality stuff (which can run another 100 years, properly maintained) floating around to keep several generations going...at least nowadays. So, for me at least, I would not really notice if Lionel or MTH went out of business tomorrow. Who know what the availability will be in 10-20 years...

Tom