Weak reservations on Sunset 3rd Rail SD40-2

Just kind of wonder what makes the O scale market tick. 

One of the most popular modern locomotives ever and nobody's buying. 

What class 1 railroads didn't have them?

They were (and are) great locomotives. 

Isn't Lionel making one? That may be taking away some of the potential sales.

Rule292 posted:

 

What class 1 railroads didn't have them?

Well, technically, Southern Pacific never had any of the standard SD40-2s.  All of their SD40-2s had the tunnel motor radiator option. Thankfully, for my wallet, Scott isn't offering them ..... yet.

 The Erie Lackawanna didn't have them either.  

From reading past posts on this forum it seems there is usually not enough O scale 2-railers to support a run of an engine.  To make a profit on an engine these days the manufacturers need to make a 3-rail version of it to sell to the much larger 3-rail market.  The alternative would be a very expensive 2-rail engine.

The problem with the SD40-2 is both MTH and Lionel have done multiple runs of this engine (MTH has done a 2-rail DCC version). I know MTH's and Lionel's engines are generic, not as nicely detailed as Sunset's and not road specific, and while those qualities would be nice they are not necessarily required in the 3-rail market.  The end result, IMHO, is there is not a 3-rail market for another SD40-2 and Sunset made a business decision to put this project on hold until economic factors change.

I'm not really surprised. Most people dont care enough about all the little things so Lionel and MTH have that market covered. There is also nothing special about an SD40-2, sure there were tons of them made, and everyone had some. It's just not special or unique. What famous train did it pull......ehh? Santa Fe pulled big ugly manifest trains and later put them in helper service because they were dependable, and would push/pull anything without bells ringing.

Didn't Jonathan mention at York that they are in the beginning of the design phase for the SD40-2s?

As I learn more and more about railroads and history, "special" things loose interest for me.    Now for me, the SD40-2 is too new.    I model 1963-64 with my diesels when they still were DGLE (Dark Green Locomotive Enamel) and most still had the Pennsylvania roadname.

But what is special about the SD40 is that so many railroads had so many of them!    It is what  you saw if you were by the tracks about anyplace.    So if you want to model that era, it makes a great deal of sense to have a few at least SD40s.

I can't understand why they are not getting enough reservations for this model.

ecd15 posted:

Well, technically, Southern Pacific never had any of the standard SD40-2s.  All of their SD40-2s had the tunnel motor radiator option.

Really?

CAPPilot posted:

From reading past posts on this forum it seems there is usually not enough O scale 2-railers to support a run of an engine.  To make a profit on an engine these days the manufacturers need to make a 3-rail version of it to sell to the much larger 3-rail market.  The alternative would be a very expensive 2-rail engine.

The problem with the SD40-2 is both MTH and Lionel have done multiple runs of this engine (MTH has done a 2-rail DCC version). I know MTH's and Lionel's engines are generic, not as nicely detailed as Sunset's and not road specific, and while those qualities would be nice they are not necessarily required in the 3-rail market.  The end result, IMHO, is there is not a 3-rail market for another SD40-2 and Sunset made a business decision to put this project on hold until economic factors change.

Tend to agree with this assessment of the reservations, not enough 3 rail reservations so far, I believe the FT project was the most 2 rail reserved project yet for Sunset. JMO

CAPPilot posted:

The problem with the SD40-2 is both MTH and Lionel have done multiple runs of this engine (MTH has done a 2-rail DCC version).

Sorry CAPPilot, MTH has never done an SD40-2 in 2 rail. They did an SD40T and an SD45, but not the "regular" SD40-2. In fact, to my knowledge there has never been a 2 rail SD40-2 with DCC produced by any manufacturer.  Atlas did an SD40 but not a "-2".

p51 posted:

ecd15 posted:

Well, technically, Southern Pacific never had any of the standard SD40-2s.  All of their SD40-2s had the tunnel motor radiator option.

Really?

Really.  That is an image of an SD40R (SP designation) rebuilt from an SD40, not an SD40-2.

jonnyspeed posted:

CAPPilot posted:

The problem with the SD40-2 is both MTH and Lionel have done multiple runs of this engine (MTH has done a 2-rail DCC version).

Sorry CAPPilot, MTH has never done an SD40-2 in 2 rail. They did an SD40T and an SD45, but not the "regular" SD40-2. In fact, to my knowledge there has never been a 2 rail SD40-2 with DCC produced by any manufacturer.  Atlas did an SD40 but not a "-2".

Didn't the Weaver SD40-2 molds get purchased by MTH?  I thought MTH produced some SD40-2s, probably not with PS3 though.

A few negative factors for me in 3 rail are no DCS, a hefty price tag $700.+ and abundant supply of new and used MTH SD40-2s in PS2 & 3.  

CAPPilot posted:

The problem with the SD40-2 is both MTH and Lionel have done multiple runs of this engine....

Not only that, but Lionel also has been doing an extensive run of a new Legacy SD40, which include line-specific details. Not the same engine as the -2, of course, but close, and that also probably cut into interest for another SD40-2.

We thought due to the broad use of the SD40-2 across many road names and the fact that they are at home from 1972 until today on many railroads, this would be a hit.  This was especially true with the 2 rail community where a group of 2 railers have been asking for more modern power.  This was seen as a gateway to a modern diesel.  To date, a really decent SD40-2 has not been done in mass production in either 2 or 3 rail.  They are generic, ride too high, and don't have the same quality drive. 

Perhaps the extensive amount of SD40s produced is the issue.  My Atlas one is still outstanding considering it's age.

However, the market always speaks and if this one doesn't go forward for a while or at all, it's not the end of the world.  I have a 3 rail one reserved in ATSF.

So Just for kicks, how many responders lamenting this postponement actually placed an order?  

The key is the total number ordered.  Personally, I am with Jim above - my interest in all things railroad stops at 1964.  The SD-9 is the last Diesel that even remotely interests me.  But Jim and I do not represent the market.

I am intrigued that 3 railers are represented as more forgiving when it comes to minor details.  My impression is the opposite, except for tracks, wheels, and couplers.

GG1 4877 posted:

We thought due to the broad use of the SD40-2 across many road names and the fact that they are at home from 1972 until today on many railroads, this would be a hit.  This was especially true with the 2 rail community where a group of 2 railers have been asking for more modern power.  This was seen as a gateway to a modern diesel.  To date, a really decent SD40-2 has not been done in mass production in either 2 or 3 rail.  They are generic, ride too high, and don't have the same quality drive. 

Perhaps the extensive amount of SD40s produced is the issue.  My Atlas one is still outstanding considering it's age.

However, the market always speaks and if this one doesn't go forward for a while or at all, it's not the end of the world.  I have a 3 rail one reserved in ATSF.

Jonathan, another possible point; how many potential customers in either 3-Rail or 2-Rail even know the differences between an EMD SD40 and an EMD SD40-2?

Hot Water posted:

GG1 4877 posted:

We thought due to the broad use of the SD40-2 across many road names and the fact that they are at home from 1972 until today on many railroads, this would be a hit.  This was especially true with the 2 rail community where a group of 2 railers have been asking for more modern power.  This was seen as a gateway to a modern diesel.  To date, a really decent SD40-2 has not been done in mass production in either 2 or 3 rail.  They are generic, ride too high, and don't have the same quality drive. 

Perhaps the extensive amount of SD40s produced is the issue.  My Atlas one is still outstanding considering it's age.

However, the market always speaks and if this one doesn't go forward for a while or at all, it's not the end of the world.  I have a 3 rail one reserved in ATSF.

Jonathan, another possible point; how many potential customers in either 3-Rail or 2-Rail even know the differences between an EMD SD40 and an EMD SD40-2?

Very good point.  The biggest difference is the long rear porch with the frame being 3' longer and the HT-C trucks, except Conrail that used Flexcoil trucks like the SD40.  However, in an age when even a minor error causes a model to be tarred and feathered, it was the thought that these details mattered to a more modern modeler.  Maybe not?

I have 2 Wheeling & Lake Erie SD40-2's (2-rail) reserved. I also have 2 Atlas W&LE SD40's on order.

I'm confident that one or the other will make the cut. If not, then I may opt out of O scale and focus my efforts on HO.

If the SD40-2 continues with low reservations perhaps Scott would consider gauging the interest in a newer GE, they did the Dash 9 in brass a number of years ago [very basic model at the time] so a -9 or newer version ES44-Evo.

bob2 posted:

So Just for kicks, how many responders lamenting this postponement actually placed an order?  

 

I have a 2 rail BN unit on order.

I'd love to see this model done, but seeing how the math works at 500+ units is difficult with only 3 road names to work with.  Granted there are five schemes for the Santa Fe version, two for the Milwaukee Road and one for Wisconsin Central.  Is that enough to make a run go forward?  Alternatively, a modern GE that hasn't been done, or an EMD modern variation not done to date might be appropriate as well.

jonnyspeed posted:

CAPPilot posted:

The problem with the SD40-2 is both MTH and Lionel have done multiple runs of this engine (MTH has done a 2-rail DCC version).

Sorry CAPPilot, MTH has never done an SD40-2 in 2 rail. They did an SD40T and an SD45, but not the "regular" SD40-2. In fact, to my knowledge there has never been a 2 rail SD40-2 with DCC produced by any manufacturer.  Atlas did an SD40 but not a "-2".

Johnathon,

You are correct that MTH did not make a scale 2-rail SD40-2 (a product number ending in -2), but they did make several Proto-Scale 3-2 engines with PS3/DCC.  I realize these engines are not the same as a -2 (scale wheels, fixed pilots) but they can be 2-rail.

CAPPilot posted:

jonnyspeed posted:

CAPPilot posted:

The problem with the SD40-2 is both MTH and Lionel have done multiple runs of this engine (MTH has done a 2-rail DCC version).

Sorry CAPPilot, MTH has never done an SD40-2 in 2 rail. They did an SD40T and an SD45, but not the "regular" SD40-2. In fact, to my knowledge there has never been a 2 rail SD40-2 with DCC produced by any manufacturer.  Atlas did an SD40 but not a "-2".

Johnathon,

You are correct that MTH did not make a scale 2-rail SD40-2 (a product number ending in -2), but they did make several Proto-Scale 3-2 engines with PS3/DCC.  I realize these engines are not the same as a -2 (scale wheels, fixed pilots) but they can be 2-rail.

CAPPilot,

I believe you are confusing the (-2) on the MTH Premier product number with the prototype EMD SD40-2 REAL locomotive. As Jonathan stated, MTH has NOT made a model of the EMD SD40-2. The MTH models are all of SD40 units, no mater what the item number states.

Not to be disagreeable. I'm trying to give that up for the Summer.  However, MTH has made an SD40-2 model.  It is based on tooling originally acquired from Weaver.  It has not however been offered in the -2 product number which is MTH's designation for a scale wheeled model to the best of my knowledge (not to be confused with EMD's -2 designation).  They are okay models, but ride too high and are without specific road details.

bob2 posted:

So Just for kicks, how many responders lamenting this postponement actually placed an order? 

Speaking for myself I have zero interest since I model steam and transition era Pennsy.  Another slow seller in a saturated market filled with buyers who generally don't value fidelity. 

I've tried to be a cheerleader since SD40-2/GP38-2/GP40-2 are some of the most significant modern locomotives made and they have not been done accurately.   

As discussed in a thread on the P:48 list, there is some discussion on P:48 wheelsets for 3rd rail locomotives.  If that happens I'll be adding a lot more to my "'stable" of motive power and especially if PA's/FA's are done.

GG1 4877 posted:

I'd love to see this model done, but seeing how the math works at 500+ units is difficult with only 3 road names to work with.  Granted there are five schemes for the Santa Fe version, two for the Milwaukee Road and one for Wisconsin Central.  Is that enough to make a run go forward?  Alternatively, a modern GE that hasn't been done, or an EMD modern variation not done to date might be appropriate as well.

I would also like to see a 3rd Rail model of the FP45 in the warbonnet scheme.  Didn't the GN/BN also buy these for the Empire Builder?  I recall seeing photos of a similar engine in the Big Sky Blue scheme.

The only FP45 model that I am aware of is a MTH RailKing version that was made 10 or more years ago.  I have a MTH RailKing version in the EMD demonstrator blue paint scheme.  I don't know if EMD ever made a demonstrator FP45.

NH Joe

I did some research.  EMD produced two cowl body SD45s for various railroads.  The FP45 was the passenger version and the F45 was the freight version.  I can't tell the difference by just looking at them.  The BN had the F45 as did several other railroads.  Perhaps 3RD Rail could do the F45 since it was used more railroads than the FP45 or perhaps both versions since they are very close in external details.  

Here is a link to info about the F45:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMD_F45#Original_owners

NH Joe

The FP45 is noticeably longer, USH [KTM] did both versions back in the day [WBW], I do not believe they were that good sellers and you could see them at many O scale meets also WBW !

Not to change the subject totally of of SD40-2s, however it should be pointed out that ATSF FP45s wore 5 paint schemes over their lives.  The as-delivered Warbonnet with the 12" letters, blue with the yellow stripes, the later blue and yellow warbonnet scheme, the short lived "Kodachrome" SPSF scheme and finally the final super fleet Warbonnet with the large Red letters.  Lots to choose from.  Doing F45s may be possible with the same tooling and increasing the road names increases the viability.  However with the shorter frame, I'm not sure how that affects the overall cost of the project. 

Right now, I have 7 RK FP45s only because they are so cheap on fLeaBay.  I figure I'll need a source of parts someday since I run the El Cap set fairly often.

I'd personally still like to see the SD40-2 get enough orders.  A little modern for my Santa Claus era, but it would be a nice looking freight loco and I don't have many freight locomotives on the roster.

Putting a sightglass porthole in an sd40 shell does not an SD40-2 make. The porches are too short and the trucks are to far back from the front and back of the loco to be correct. You can't get the correct truck configuration with the China drive, you need a horizontal tank style drive 

ALL ROAD SPECIFIC DETAILS VERSIONS AND PAINT COLORS ARE HIGHLY RESEARCHED PRIOR TO PRODUCTION ALA (Jonathan)

So you gave an reason for not doing the correct bell on not just one SD9, but two models (same bell?) .

How will I know this won't happen on the SD40-2.

The AmtrakE8 unit got the extra plow, because is was "demanded" according to Scott.

I don't understand why one model gets a special detail, yet two models with the same  were not.

Can someone explain to me why some models get special treatment and others don't get the "ROAD SPECIFIC DETAILs" as advertised?

I was excited when the SD40-2 were announced, but ...... I don't know what to do now.

George DiSanti

Where the Tarheels Rule!  

A couple of issues to fully explain.  The SD7 / SD9 had more detail variations that the E8/E9 and it was the first locomotive for the new factory and the new team.  Two distinct models and a lot of road names.  

There are only 16 road names for the SD40-2 and it is likely some won't move forward based on reservations.  Furthermore, the factory is up to speed and doing great work as evidenced by other projects they have released.

The E8/E9 Amtrak run had some interchangeable details, but that was limited to the dynamic brake and the snow shields over the winterization hatches on the former UP units.  The reason for that was someone personally guaranteed the Amtrak run with their own funds as far as I understand otherwise it was going to be canceled.  I fully expected them all to be based on UP models, but the investor had some of their own input into the project.  

Hi all,

wow, what a discussion!!! Compare the old models with a china drive, crude handrails an less details. For those models i have spend xx dollars for detail parts, so the Sunset have most on it. I have had the hope, to get for this price a reasonable model. A (also older) brass model is out of sight for me, those have tank drive trains, a little better then the china drive, but not as i used in H0.

When i read the postings, so should i only buy engines, that run famous trains? I havn`t  the basement to do this in an good manor.  Or should i buy engines, that i only know from book, like Pennsy etc? So, i`am end 40th, for me is a SD40 a good engine, covers my interests. The announced Atlas  SD 40 is also ordered, but who knows, when it will delivers.

I go confirm even with a ES44 or SD70 ACE or some other engines, they will work for me.

My opinion, when 0 scale will have a futur, there should be modern stuff, otherwise you can see a slow downgoing of a scale. No actual models for the customers, no new customers will be reached for the hobby.

In H0 scale, manufacturer have understand this problem, many modern and today`s models are available, most of the sold out fast.

So i can understand those guys, who wrote here, to have more focus on H0 scale, cause there they got the stuff, the waiting for in 0 ( and did´t get it)

thanks

kindest regards

Elmar

Hi Jonathan,

I believe I read in one of the York reports that you stated that you were beginning the design phase for the SD40-2s.

Is this true or do you need more reservations?

Thanks

EMD posted:

Hi Jonathan,

I believe I read in one of the York reports that you stated that you were beginning the design phase for the SD40-2s.

Is this true or do you need more reservations?

Thanks

 

At York, I commented that we needed more reservations to begin design.  I can't say what the actual order count is, that is Scott's realm, but there has been no design work started to date.  We are focusing on getting the Alco PA's through preliminary design and doing quality control on the 2nd run F7s which will be an improvement over the first run units.  I can't say what will be next on the boards, but it is always based on orders. 

Jonathan,

Thanks so much for the reply! 

hibar posted:

The FP45 is noticeably longer, USH [KTM] did both versions back in the day [WBW], I do not believe they were that good sellers and you could see them at many O scale meets also WBW !

I'm guessing the 3R version of a new FP45 would out sell the 2R version in todays market. Especially with GGD's El Capitan train out there now. MTH's version is a joke...no offense Jonathan, no matter how cheap they are on fleabay, I still won't buy them. With the GGD Super Chief, El Capitan, and the Big Domes coming.... FP45's are a no brainer. The Super Fleet scheme alone will run behind various trains including the 3751. So dummy units of an FP45 would sell well too.

3751, 2 dummy FP45's, and 6 or 8 cars.....I can see the "Officer's Special" already!

Kodachromes on a big manifest trains with cars from the 80's

Small lettering on the El Capitan, Combined train

"If you build it, they WILL come"  

No offense taken.  I realize how poor the RK FP45s are as an accurate model. They filled a need when I couldn't afford other and better options and I had dreams of upgrading them someday.  Not likely at the rate I'm going. 

I'd welcome a replacement and I agree that dummies would be appropriate in this case.  I'd like two powered units and a dummy to pull my El Cap with the original numbers so the RPO more or less is still accurate in the consist.  When a rerun of the Super Chief is hopefully announced perhaps after some of these other car sets go through, I'd love to add that to the back. 

The magic number is around 750 units total.