Weaver - my first attempt.

Sadly, in my experience, the rattle is caused by one or both of the following, as alluded to in my earlier post.

One is that the upper sprocket axle is not parallel to the lower axle. This is because the axle boss is cast at a downward angle in the tower moulding. The chain cannot ever run totally smoothly because it's always pulling at a slight angle over the top sprocket. It may climb off the sprocket and is very noisy. It's less of an issue if you switch to more accurately formed machined Delrin sprockets from the chain manufacturers rather than the moulded ones supplied. But it's still too noisy for me. The only fix I know of for this is to get the new adjustable towers we spoke of before which have properly parallel axles.

The other cause of "drive tower rattle" is that the supplied sprocket bosses are too short on one end. This allows the edges of the chain links to overhang it and rub on the supplied spacing washers. This can be fixed by the "Bob Sobol method" of top hat washers that I linked to earlier. Or using a short brass tube spacer as I do, not having a lathe.

I thought the Bob Sobol fixes would do it, but no, the rattle was still there. That's when I noticed the top axle wasn't parallel. A very odd thing. At first I thought maybe I had a warped one, but all mine are like that.

I am hoping to install the new tower upgrades soon and will let you know the results.

I am determined to make this drive quiet!!! 

I guess there's a reason the smart guys use belts not chains these days...  

HTH 

Pete

I noticed during the test runs last night that the front of the loco is rocking side to side, so it looks like I'll have to replace the front axle sets as well. 

I've had that trouble also. Might just be the wheels not pressed on dead square, usually on the insulated side.  Make sure they're in gauge while you're at it...  

Can also be caused by the "slider joint" in the motor-to-tower drive shaft (if present) not sliding freely due to the UJs being pressed onto their shafts crooked. That causes the truck tower to lift a wheelset slightly instead of being able to tilt slightly fore and aft when compensating, and the torque reaction makes the truck wobble. I had a GP38 that would lift the rear truck front axle off the track when pulling away forwards due to this joint sticking. Filed and smoothed the clearances in the slider and problem solved.    

The other cause of wheel lift I've seen is that if the brass tube sleeve between the two axle gearbox housings is a hair long, it presses against both boxes and can transmit torque from one truck to the other causing a wheel to lift. 

As I said before, apart from all this, it's a great drive system.

Pete

Thanks, Pete.

Looks like I'm still a way behind you.

You are welcome! My goal is to save you time and anguish if I can. Probably can't save you money though, sadly.

I never meant to go this deep of course, but I got hung up on the principle - it really ought to be possible to make this design run smoothly and quietly. It's not a bad concept I feel, just some weird/sloppy execution of details. But of course the drive package had to be built to a cost target back in the day, which I quite understand.

Keep going, it will be worth it!  

Pete

You will get it, I went over my GP38-2 while it down right now for conversion to 2 rail and installation of a high short hood. I deburred anything that looked like a burr, check everything for splits.  Mine runs nice and quiet and the chain is nice and tight with very little slop. That will change over time once she is run in, but with 2 hours run time on blocks with the 3 rail wheelsets still in the trucks, she was smooth and quiet.  New P&D wheelsets with gears will go in soon.  I run analog DC, so no decoder worries for me.  Right now my primary engine is a beater Atlas O F9 I saved from a junk pile.  The GP38 is kind of a oddball for my line, I am thinking of returning her to 3 rail and selling to get a couple more F9's   Mike

Thanks, Guys.

Pete, you offered to show me the bloke who makes the replacement drives.  I'm sorry, but I've looked all over the forum and I can't see the PM button.

Can you point it out to me, please?

Cheers

Hi Mike

I don't worry about odd balls.  I just buy what I like the look of.  I've only got 5 metres of layout, so two locos will be enough.  My other one is an Atlas SDP-35 in L&N livery.  Go figure.

All of my rolling stock will be scratch built for my NMRA AP Certificate.

Mine's a waterfront layout with US locos and a Dutch ocean going tug boat.  I wouldn't last five minutes with the P48 mob. 

Rule 1 applies. 

Cheers

Sorry, Pete.  It wasn't you. 

I saw it on the P 48 site.  There's a guy called Kelly skray775@gmail.com who makes adjustable towers for Weavers.

I've emailed him asking if he will ship to Oz.  Having an adjustable upper shaft would be a bonus, but they will also be straight.

I'll post his reply.

Cheers

Max, it was me as well, no worries mate!     But looks like you found him OK.

It seems one has to be a premium subscriber to access PMs. You can also reach him at   info at finescale360 dot com

I just got some of his kits, they seem excellent quality. So he ships to Canada at least... I already have the Delrin larger sprockets so I just got the top shaft and tower version. I have some of his Red Caboose frames as well. Now I just have to fine time to install it all.

I will try to post progress pics/vids when I get to it.

Pete   

Thanks, Pete.

Kelly has just replied and will split the sets for me.

It's all coming along.

BTW, are you able to point me to the PM button?

Cheers

Great news Max!

I think the PM thing would be available from the grey "Dialogs" button at the very top of this page. I tried to use it but a pop-up told me I need to be a premium member to access it.   

Hi guy's,

Here is a picture of the adjustable tower drive kits.  The parts are machined out of fiberglass for the lower section and aluminum for the upper bearing carrier. The lower section was made out of fiberglass for those of you that run electrical pickups mounted on the lower case screws.

The kit was designed for the Red Caboose GP9 and sold in pairs both with and without gears. I can package them in single sets for your application.

More pictures and info on the drives can be seen on my site at:

www.finescale360.com

email: info@finescale360.com

A video of my modified Red Caboose GP9 with the adjustable drive tower. You may notice the wobbly drive shaft at around the 33 second mark. The wobble is from the drive shaft that came with my GP9 NOT the shaft that I include in the drive tower kit.

The loco runs very smooth and the chain noise has been drastically reduced.

A few more pictures.

If you watch the videos om my site the loco is powered by a single A123 2300mAh battery with a voltage booster and motor controller by pololu with and a 2.4 gig spectrum radio receiver.

Thanks, Kelly.

I've received your email reply. 

I'm looking forward to making the changes.

Cheers

Thanks, Kelly.

My payment has been made.

Cheers

Thanks guys,

Just so you all know I have not personally tested this on the locomotive you are working on however I believe it should fit just fine. If for any reason this won't fit I will design a lower bracket to fit this application and make it work!

The kit was designed for the Red Caboose GP9 that uses the upgraded P&D hobbies weaver drive kit.  From what I can tell all the Weaver drives use the same style gear box and as I said above I am confident the lower bracket will fit. 

Please post pictures, I am excited to see some installation pictures once you have the kit in hand.

Thank you all again.

Run to the Post office with my parcel, Kelly. 

Kelly.

It's an Aussie invasion!

I ordered one twin tower drive.

Thanks.

Roo.

West Australia

I've completed building the Profiling track on my layout, complete with a Boulder Creek Engineering HotShot™  Speedometer.

I'm ready for testing once Kelly's bits arrive. 

Cheers

Max.

Thanks for posting about the tower drives I would not have known about them otherwise.

Your Railroad is shaping up to be a winner mate I check it out on the other thread every week.

You take care if your ever in West Australia give us a call.

Every Friday is operation day

My wife and family all came from Adelaide, me, I was originally a Victorian I still follow North Melbourne Football club 'The Mighty Roos"!

Thanks.

Roo.

Thanks, Roo

It's a bit of a drive, but I'll keep it in mind. 

The Roos are knocking on the door for a flag.  Maybe next year.

Cheers

Hey Max!

My drive arrived today has yours.

Well packed, arrived safe in West Australia as always.

I'm using the P&D brass trucks and a Red Caboose diesel.

I might buy the chassis yet.

Oh! And by the way Thanks Kelly. Your the Man!

Roo.

Hi Roo

No sign of it yet.  I've started fitting a Loksound Select L decoder to my SDP-35 while I'm waiting - plus laying track and painting the sea.

Lots to do.

Put up some photos of your build.  Stick them in here if you like.

Cheers

Thanks Roo, I hope it works as planed.

Max, I believe both sets to Australia shipped the same day, should arrive soon, have you checked the tracking number?

Hi Kelly

Shipments to South Oz typically take 10 - 14 days.  Your page shows shipping date as November 19th, so I'm not too worried as yet.  I have the tracking number, so I'll drop in to the post office next week if it hasn't arrived by then.

Pat from P&D sent me a parcel recently which took something like four weeks to come.  To the point that he sent me a replacement, which I had to send back when the first one got here.

I get the feeling that occasionally parcels get diverted to sea transport if they miss the aircraft.

Sometimes we feel like The Early Settlers, waiting for the mail ships to arrive from Olde England. 

Cheers

Max.

It's strange that your parcels are taking so long.

I get parcels or items all the time from the USA and nothing ever takes longer than 21 days in fact I had a MTH Gondola arrive a couple of days ago in 8 days!

I have noticed over the years the international flights with parcels are fast to Australia it takes longer for Australia Post to deliver especially if it comes from the East of Australia to the Wild West.

I ordered a frame from Kelly today thought I might as well go the whole way!

Thanks. Roo.

Hi Roo

Just called at the post office and Kelly's parcel was there, so not too bad; timewise.

My friend Richard, from DCC Concepts is at Naval Base in WA.  If he sends me a parcel it can take up to 10 days to get to South Oz.  If it's something small that will go in a letter, it's virtually over night.  I think parcels have to go via Perth through the mail centre.

Not to worry.  Tomorrow (Saturday), will be a full on rebuild of the GP-38 drive train.  I can't wait to giver her a run, now I've got a section of Profiling track hooked up.

Cheers

Great news Max! I am intrigued to see how this goes as I have not had time to get to my upgrade kits yet.

Please could you do a "before and after" video clip with the noise coming from the top sprocket(s) at speed? I have a P&D F Unit on which I did all the Bob Sobol upgrades, plus a big flywheel. And I spent some time trying to "compromise align" the top and bottom sprockets to accommodate the down-sloping top shaft and angled chain-top sprocket issue. When I first ran it the slow speed was awesome - best ever on that drive. But as soon as I got to about scale 10mph it began to rattle and hum, and by mid throttle it's blotting out the sound decoder. I listened in closely and all the noise seems to be coming off the top sprocket.   

My feeling is that the kit will fix all this and the drive will be as quiet as it ought to be with Delrin-on-Delrin chain and sprockets, and minimized UJ angles.

Fingers crossed...  

Pete    

Hi Pete

Lucky you posted.  I was just about to strip it down.

I'll make a video.

Cheers

Wow Max, that sure is noisy!  But at least it's smooth so as you said the sprockets don't seem to be cracked. Here's my P&D F7 chassis with all the Bob Sobol mods, except P&D top sprocket. It does have a 20-tooth Delrin lower sprocket. It has an NCE D408SR for motor with a TCS KA2 keep alive, and a Soundtraxx DSX for sound (muted here).   

I have to go to Europe tomorrow for a week so won't get to my tower conversion for a bit. Looking forward to how yours turns out!

Pete

Hi Pete

That shaft is well out of alignment!  

So far the things I've found wrong . . .

I had to cut and split the nuts on the P&D tower as they were glued.  Lucky I had some spares from the OE tower.

The P&D gearbox was assembled the wrong way around - and I didn't find it until after I had fitted the lower sprocket.  Lucky I hadn't glued the nuts.

The shaft on the Finescale tower is 3 mm too long to allow the tailshaft to fit between it and the motor.  Lucky I had my handy Dremel to cut the end off. 

The fourth P&D truck has no shaft for the bottom tail shaft, so I couldn't change them over.  Lucky the existing one had a straight axle.

All in all, a lucky day. 

I won't be able to finish it as I have a band gig tonight, so I have to get ready.

Cheers

Well, I don't know what to say about this now.

I've painstakingly converted the tower drive, after cutting 3mm off the end of the splined shaft.  It all fits perfectly.

However . . .  Since the gear reduction, the P&D electric motor has developed a loud whine.  The loco sounds like a tram car.  The noise will overcome the sound of the decoder.

The running gear has intermittent rattling and banging, depending on speed. 

I intend to buy some rollers from Richard Johnson, so I can sit and watch it.  I can't pick up where exactly the rattling is coming from, by following the loco up and down the track.

Making a silk purse from a sow's ear seems to be an appropriate analogy at the minute.

I'm starting to wonder at what point I stop throwing money at this thing, and get off the bus.

Post script:  DCC Concepts "multi gauge" rollers won't fit O scale.  Surprised?

I'll start trawling through the advertisers at the top to see if I can find some there.

Cheers

Not to hijack this thread but was wondering about this....

I'm using a Loksound Select.  A commonly used decoder by members of the Loksound group, for O scale locos.  I've also used V 4's, but not this time.  I record my own sounds and make sound projects, so I'm very experienced with them.

Do you know of a way I can do sound editing on the original LokSound sound files??

Nicholas Smith Trains has them.  The system works. 

I'll be back in 10 - 14 days when they arrive.

Hi Casey

I do it with my Lokprogrammer.

But before that, I do the sound file editing with Goldwave.

Can you be more specific?

Cheers