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173 replies

Weaver - my first attempt.

RooRooOGR Forum Member

Hi Max.

I'm not getting involved in your rebuild as I don't use sound or any fancy gimmicks for me it's all DC all the way but that's me and I never knock anyone else for living in the present!

I have been involved in O Scale for many years getting close to 30 years maybe, who's counting, and I am a bumbling modeller who gets by on my average skills.

I have many Weaver and Red caboose diesels some run great some don't for the operation day I don't like hassles so I run a fleet of six Atlas SW diesels and never have a problem.

Anyway enough self praise that's not what I am writing about.

Loco Rollers: This is what I use they are from Mustard Models in England I go every year to England and always go to Telford for the O gauge show which is the biggest same Gauge show in Europe so I'm told not much USA items but plenty of tools and stuff like this.

Maybe you should ask an old O scale bloke sitting down in his workshop at the end of the earth before buying equipment in the future I can give you O SCALE advice but's that's all, I am not an expert and I am not a dealer just an old man playing with his trains.

Nev.

 

DSC08395

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MaxSouthOzMaxSouthOzOGR Forum Member

Hi Roo

 

I'm not fussed about the rollers.  It's good to support our sponsors at the top of the page.

 

I've got an Atlas SDP-35, which has no running problems.  I fitted a new L Select to it and it seems to have a fault as it's showing a short circuit.

 

Bryan from SBS4DCC is sending me a replacement which should be here next week.

 

One step forward and one step back - at least it's not two steps back.  

 

skray775skray775OGR Forum Member
Max,
Can you post a picture of were you had to cut 3mm off the shaft?
I believe you could have pushed the gear further onto the splines of the
shaft to avoid cutting, it may have required another washer on the nut
end of the shaft.
 
As for the noise... have you run the motor without anything attached?
I am thinking you might have a bad bearing in the motor. 
 
 
Originally Posted by MaxSouthOz:

Hi Pete

 

That shaft is well out of alignment!  

 

So far the things I've found wrong . . .

 

I had to cut and split the nuts on the P&D tower as they were glued.  Lucky I had some spares from the OE tower.

 

The P&D gearbox was assembled the wrong way around - and I didn't find it until after I had fitted the lower sprocket.  Lucky I hadn't glued the nuts.

 

The shaft on the Finescale tower is 3 mm too long to allow the tailshaft to fit between it and the motor.  Lucky I had my handy Dremel to cut the end off. 

 

The fourth P&D truck has no shaft for the bottom tail shaft, so I couldn't change them over.  Lucky the existing one had a straight axle.

 

All in all, a lucky day. 

 

I won't be able to finish it as I have a band gig tonight, so I have to get ready.

 

Cheers

 

MaxSouthOzMaxSouthOzOGR Forum Member
Hi Kelly
 
I'll try to do it later tonight.  There is no drama with the shaft.  Five minutes with the Dremel and it all fits perfectly.
 
The motor is a brand new one from Pat at P&D.  They have ball bearings, so I'll be surprised if that's the case.  I'll disconnect the tail shaft and try just to be sure.
 
The noise seems to be coming from down low - possibly the bottom gear box.  It goes loud and soft, like something is loose.  Once the rollers arrive I'll be able to play with it a bit more.
 
 
Originally Posted by skray775:
Max,
Can you post a picture of were you had to cut 3mm off the shaft?
I believe you could have pushed the gear further onto the splines of the
shaft to avoid cutting, it may have required another washer on the nut
end of the shaft.
 
As for the noise... have you run the motor without anything attached?
I am thinking you might have a bad bearing in the motor. 
 
MaxSouthOzMaxSouthOzOGR Forum Member

Hi again, Kelly.

 

To deal first with the motor whine . . . I've been running the loco - first on DC, then on DCC with developing drive trains.  Even with the P&D tower, it wasn't there.  I can't tell for sure; maybe the changed gear ratio has something to do with it.  I really have no idea, but the motor is fine.

 

Here is a shot of the tower as assembled . . .

 

 

aaaa

As you can see, it's a perfect fit.  There's even a small gap at the left hand end of the slot between the pin and the end.  Couldn't be better.

 

I could shim the gear a bit to move it more directly above the bottom sprocket.  I could also add a few more links into the chain, which will allow me to raise the tower so that the tail shaft is perfectly level.  Fine tuning really, but it might help to chase down the whine.

 

Once I've received my rollers, I should be able to home in on the rattle at the bottom.

 

It's all part of the tapestry.  Who knows - we might even find some pointers for those tackling Weaver GP 38's in the future.

 

Cheers

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PM Pete MOGR Forum Member
Originally Posted by MaxSouthOz:

Hi again, Kelly.

 

To deal first with the motor whine . . . I've been running the loco - first on DC, then on DCC with developing drive trains.  Even with the P&D tower, it wasn't there.  I can't tell for sure; maybe the changed gear ratio has something to do with it.  I really have no idea, but the motor is fine.

 

Here is a shot of the tower as assembled . . .

 

 

aaaa

As you can see, it's a perfect fit.  There's even a small gap at the left hand end of the slot between the pin and the end.  Couldn't be better.

 

I could shim the gear a bit to move it more directly above the bottom sprocket.  I could also add a few more links into the chain, which will allow me to raise the tower so that the tail shaft is perfectly level.  Fine tuning really, but it might help to chase down the whine.

 

Once I've received my rollers, I should be able to home in on the rattle at the bottom.

 

It's all part of the tapestry.  Who knows - we might even find some pointers for those tackling Weaver GP 38's in the future.

 

Cheers

Hi Max,

 

Great work - man that kit is nice! I am now fully motivated togetstuck into mine as soon as I get back. I would say at first glance that the chain does look a little angled coming off the top sprocket so worth a tweak to get them 100% aligned. At least top and bottom tower shafts are parallel now! I doubt if there's enough offset through the UJs to be adding much noise. 

 

I have been thinking about that "bucket of bolts" rattle that's in your video, and was leaning towards a busted motor as Kelly suggested, but that seems highly unlikely now you have brand new BB Pittman, as you say.

 

There are only 2 things left I have seen on some of mine that can cause uneven load: The Delrin slider section of the motor drive shaft not being free to slide forwards and backwards from the centred no-load position, and the square-section brass slider driveshaft between the trucks being bent or unable to slide freely. I keep the Delrin dry (file and smooth it if required),  but lube the brass. But tbh I highly doubt either of those would cause a rattle like in the middle of your video.

 

Anyway, keep up the good work and look forward to seeing what you find. It will be worth it!  

 

Pete

      

Last edited by Pete M
MaxSouthOzMaxSouthOzOGR Forum Member

Thanks, Pete.  Nothing's ever wasted in this hobby. 

 

I think that I will go back and fine tune the whole thing, just to satisfy myself; while I'm waiting for the rollers.

 

It all turns very smoothly by hand - both from the top and the bottom shafts, but we all know how things can change once we begin to drive them.

 

How was Europe?

MaxSouthOzMaxSouthOzOGR Forum Member
Good Luck with it, Mark.
 
I've done a few cosmetic mods on mine as well as you can see...
 
Cheers
 
Originally Posted by Strummer:

I'm finding these posts most interesting, as I too have just purchased a Weaver "38" online.

 

Have yet to receive it, and hope it will not have any of these issues, but if it does, I'll have some good info with which to address them, thanks to this thread...

 

Mark in Oregon

 

skray775skray775OGR Forum Member

Thank you for the pictures, I have a few questions and comments.

1) Does the GP38 come with the flywheel show?

2) FYI the small gear is only pushed onto the splines of the shaft about 1/8". It can be pushed onto the splines further if you need to move the chain closer to the tower. This can be done simply by tightening the shaft nut, it won't damage the bearings. Make sure you back the nut off after you do this to prevent binding the tower bearings.

3) My GP9 was a bad runner and I stripped the entire drive train down and found an extra shim inside the lower gear box that was causing binding.

4) Per the instruction in my kit I use locktite and only hand tighten the two lower gear box screws/nuts. Any tighter and the loco started to run bad again.

5) I had flashing inside the brass tube that connected the two lower gear box's. One was also bent a little. I cut new tubes. Make sure the tubes are not to long and pushing against the large lower gear or it will bind.

 

MaxSouthOzMaxSouthOzOGR Forum Member

Hi Kelly

 

I'm not sure what you mean by a flywheel show.  The motor and flywheel assembly is exactly the same size as the one I removed.

 

I'm confident that I can line everything up.

 

I guess it will just be a process of "blueprinting" to use a motor racing term, every component to get them fitting properly.

 

I can easily turn the drive train with my fingers on both the lower and upper shafts, so I suspect that the spurious whine and rattling is some kind of referred vibration or suchlike.

 

 I haven't glued any of the screws as yet, until make sure that I haven't over tightened them.

 

Like I say, I'm going to retrace my steps until I find it.

 

Cheers

Last edited by MaxSouthOz
Keystoned EdKeystoned EdOGR Forum Member

I had a number of flywheel equipped locomotives that had vibration/noise issues at high RPM.  Holding the motors in my hand and revving them up I could feel the vibration - even though I could see that the flywheels were running true.  I discovered that the flywheels were fixed on the motor shaft with steel set screws recessed deep inside the brass flywheel - consequently the flywheels were inherently out of balance.  My fix was to re-bore and tap the flywheels for long brass set screws with heads cut flush with the outer face of the flywheel. This eliminated the out of balance condition - flywheel induced vibration gone!

 

Ed Rappe

Last edited by Keystoned Ed
MaxSouthOzMaxSouthOzOGR Forum Member

Thanks, Ed.

 

Fortunately this model has a solid flywheel, so I'm saved from that.  The whine wasn't there before I fitted the tower mod, so that's another bonus.

 

I goes to show that we need to look properly for these vibration sources.

 

Flywheels are redundant with DCC, but we need the physical connector to the shaft, so we're stuck with them.

 

I've done some further work on the tower while I'm waiting for the rollers.

 

 

017

I've trimmed a further 2 mm off the end of the shaft to make sure that Pete's suggestion is covered.  The gap in the shaft slider is now quite large.

 

I shimmed the sprocket with a brass 3 mm washer, which brought it in line with the bottom sprocket.

 

I added one link to the chain, which raised the top axle to be perfectly in line with the drive shaft.  I'm not sure what the ideal tension is for the chain, but I guessed that about one chain width deflection midway between the sprockets could be OK.

 

Anyway, the whine is gone - together with most of the rattle.

 

What is left of the rattle seems to be coming from the bottom somewhere, but as I say I'll be able to tell more when I use the rollers.

 

You can also see an ugly burn mark on the chassis, where I made clearance for the chain, as it hits the chassis cross member on full lock.  I used my soldering iron, but I'll clean it up later if I have to take it apart again.

 

Clearly Weaver made the frames to suit the loco they were modelling, so they are all different.  The mods have turned out to be worth the effort, but they need a bit of tweaking to get them to 100%

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PM Pete MOGR Forum Member

Excellent work Max! Looking at this latest picture and from your comments it sounds like you nailed all the "upper drive train" issues. Now that you have the upper drive train running faster than the lower, that should help you isolate the source in the lower on the rollers. 

 

I was so glad to read "The mods have turned out to be worth the effort, but they need a bit of tweaking to get them to 100%"  

 

I am still in EU - Madrid this week, a lovely city, and I'll be back next week. I am even more keen to get these tower upgrades kits installed now. Thanks for letting me live vicariously through your emotional roller coaster! 

 

Looking forward to the next video clip...

 

Pete

   

Oops, meant to say that usually the UJ yoke will press fit onto the Pittman shaft the same way it does on the flywheel. So you likely could remove it if you wanted, That big flywheel on my F7 (no idea who made it) is actually hollowed out and the UJ fits onto the end of the motor shaft deep inside. That said, 2 of my original Weaver drives had split yokes. Not that surprising I guess. 

Last edited by Pete M
MaxSouthOzMaxSouthOzOGR Forum Member

Thanks, Pete.

 

I might wait until I get it completely done before I make another movie.

 

The flywheel has the UJ yoke pressed into it on the GP-38, so I didn't bother trying to take the flywheel out of the line.  With hindsight, it could have been a good move - given the problems Ed had with his flywheel being out of balance.

 

Anyway, enjoy Europe.  Are you on holiday or working?

 

Cheers

PM Pete MOGR Forum Member

Max, my guess is the solid press-on flywheel is good. I have a couple and they don't vibrate running just the motor on the bench. It's the grub screw ones that can prove troublesome if the grub screws aren't arranged in exactly opposing pairs. Ed Rappe's elegant solution fixes that problem for sure! 

 

OK on the video - it'll be worth the wait. I'm guessing the difference will be stunning.

 

My trip is business, sadly.  I'm in the waste-to-energy sector so I tend to travel to interesting cities and then have to go straight to visit the landfill. That "landfill aroma" is surprisingly consistent around the world...       Luckily our Spanish partner knows the value of siesta so its not all bad!

 

Pete

 

 

PM Pete MOGR Forum Member

I'm also in a holding pattern with my drive upgrades for now.  

I finally got around to my first tower upgrade but hit a small snag. I had ordered the tower kits without the sprockets and chain as I have lots in stock from all my fiddling about with these drives. However, as it turns out, the Weaver/P&D top sprockets are too large an I/D for Kelly's top shaft. That's because the Weaver/P&D steps up in diameter between the knurled section for the UJ yoke and the knurled section where the sprocket fits. Kelly's shaft, bearing and locknut design is far superior imho, but has constant diameter.

So the key point is you need 1/8" bore top sprockets, not the 3/16" ones that fit standard Weaver/P&D top shafts. You will get the correct sprockets if you order the full kit from Kelly of course. If you need just top sprockets, you can order sprockets from Stock as I have just done, using the part number Kelly was kind enough to send me:

A 6M 7-120804 0.1227 Pitch, 8 Teeth, 1/8" Bore, Plastic roller chain sprocket   

Hopefully they will get here in time for my "6-loco Holiday Upgrade Extravaganza."  

Pete

    

skray775skray775OGR Forum Member

I was sorry to hear about Pete's trouble with the upper gear and have since updated the web site with the following note at the bottom of this page.  

When I was first designing the kit I considered using the stock upper drive shaft from the original locomotive. My decision to replace the shaft was based on several factors.

  • I could not source the 8 tooth upper sprocket with a 3/16" bore.
  • I do not like C clips.
  • The upper 8 tooth sprocket with a 3/16" bore is prone to splitting because the side wall material is so thin.
  • C clips will not allow one to adjust the backlash. 

It would have been a lot simpler to use the stock upper shaft but I wanted to provide you with a more elegant solution.

---------------------------- WEB SITE UPDATE ----------------------

A NOTE about Kits without Gears or Chain

This kit includes a new upper drive shaft  that is 1/8" diameter.  The upper drive shaft included in this kit is NOT the same size as the upper drive shaft that came with your locomotive.

The upper 8 tooth gear from your original locomotive will NOT fit the new upper drive shaft included in this kit.  If you are ordering a kit without Gears or Chain you will need an upper gear that has a 1/8" bore. If you are unsure I encourage you to order a kit with Gears and Chain.

---------------------------

Thank you everyone for the support and happy holidays!

Last edited by skray775
PM Pete MOGR Forum Member

Nicely done Kelly!

Thanks to your patience it all makes sense to me now. I had been using Servolink for sprockets and chain. They make a 3/16” bore sprocket but the smallest is 10T which is what I had been using, not 8T. So not only is your top shaft design superior in every way, I will now be able to use SDP 8T x 1/8” and get even a better drive ratio reduction. I had not wanted to bore out 8T 1/8" sprockets to 3/16” because I figured there’s a reason the manufacturers don’t go below 10T on 3/16”. We all know how easily these sprockets can split...  

Your adjustable chain tension, properly parallel top shaft, ball bearings and ability to shim/space the top sprocket into perfect alignment with the bottom sprocket, AND get the UJ spider exactly above the truck pivot, is the only way I know to fix all the issues worth tackling. Thank you for thinking it up and actually getting it into production!

Pete

Last edited by Pete M
MaxSouthOzMaxSouthOzOGR Forum Member

Thanks, guys.  This isn't related to the above, but when I first installed the Loksound decoder, the motor made that distinctive moaning buzz we all hate.  I changed out the motor for the ball bearing one, and it's still there.  I can get rid of it by switching off the BEMF, but that's just wrong.

Still working on that one.

Cheers

MaxSouthOzMaxSouthOzOGR Forum Member

OK  Chaps.  The rollers have arrived and the clicking has been traced to when the wheels cross joins in the rails.  I've used insulating joiners, but I've pushed them tightly together, so there shouldn't be an issue.

I haven't started the scenery yet, so once the boards become loaded up they should be deadened.

One thing that has become obvious is that the axle directly below the tower is bent on the P&D replacement truck.  The whole back end of the loco moves up and down.

My main worry now is that the replacement Pittman motor makes that classic moaning sound reminiscent of the old DC motors.  I was hoping that the flash new ball bearing motor wouldn't do it, but it's the same.  The motor on my test board is the old Pittman.  It doesn't make that sound when it's out of the loco.

I can get rid of the sound by switching off the BEMF, but as this loco will eventually be driven by a computer, it needs the BEMF to be on.

The decoder is a Loksound L - the same as in the Atlas; which doesn't make that sound.

A bit disappointing.

Cheers

PM Pete MOGR Forum Member

Max, I think the buzzing could be caused by the PWM frequency. I am only just starting my learning curve on Loksound, so this may be off base but here goes anyway...   

Out of the box, the manual reads like Loksound uses a variable PWM frequency for fine resolution motor control when back EMF is on and motor under some load. This may be why you don't hear it on the test rig with very little load, and why the much lower current-draw Atlas motors don't "drag the PWM frequency down" as far to get smooth start and slow running . It says with some motors this will cause a buzz. It is possible to adjust the PWM frequency to fixed using CV124. Thus should keep it out of audible frequency range and hopefully keep most of the back EMF control.  See page 48 of the Loksound V4 manual. Seems bit 4 can be set to change the PWM frequency.

It may reduce torque or reduce slow running quality a bit but definitely worth a try imho. I haven't tried this yet myself as I only have one Loksound in a Yoder 44-Tonner and that ran great out of the box, no buzzing. But that uses tiny can motors that draw about 1/10th of the current the Pittmans do.      

Interested to see what you find! 

Last edited by Pete M
MaxSouthOzMaxSouthOzOGR Forum Member

Hi Pete and Jim

I'm using a Lokprogrammer, so Railcom is turned off as part of the programming phase.  I have been programming Loksound decoders for about 10 years - always with the Lokprogrammer, so I don't bother with CV's.

I'll have another look at the PWM on the screen.

I've been out this arvo, but now I'll make a video of it running on the rollers on the Lokprogrammer.

I was aghast at how bent ALL of the axles are now I've had a chance to look at it up close.

Back soon.

PM Pete MOGR Forum Member

Understood Max. I started off the hard way with CVs (in Hex even) as I had a Digitrax system in 1994. Next we got the luxury of Decimal, and then the revelation that is JMRI.  A big THANK YOU to the entire JMRI team! 

N.B. I have never used the Lokprogrammer so take this with a pinch of salt...  I downloaded the app and it seems there's a setting under "Decoder > Change decoder settings > Motor Settings > Adaptive regulation frequency. This is a checkbox, and I'm not 100% clear from the manual if it's plain vanilla "off" or "on", or whether it's "off" and "on plus adjustment with the Back EMF sampling period slider underneath". But hopefully a bit of fiddling and user manual interpretation will get you where you need to be.       

Once again I am living vicariously through your efforts in the hope of learning that Loksound 4 XL will be my decoder of choice for Pittman powered locos (where ESU has the right sound set). I am highly impressed that you produce your own sound sets by the way - I can't imagine the learning curve to get to that stage!   

MaxSouthOzMaxSouthOzOGR Forum Member

I'm embarrassed to say that I've never used the JMRI Decoder Pro, Pete.  The Lokprogrammer is just too simple.

There are only two options available in Loksound decoders for PWM, viz: 20 kHz and 40 kHz.  Needless to say that I tried both, but to no avail.  Dave Heap has written most of the JMRI stuff for ESU decoders.  He lives here in Oz.  He's very good, but I notice that he replies to LP questions on the forum, so I'm betting that he has one.

I've actually got two - from my old HO days.  One at my work station and one built into the layout.  It saved me handling steam locos more than absolutely necessary

Decoder Pro is very good, but still comes up short against the LP occasionally.  Life's too short for me to bother. 

And, just for Jim I made sure the Railcom was off - even though I was running the loco on the programmer.

Anyway, here is the movie.  It's a bit quiet - I can do it again closer up if you need it.

Notice the way the trucks rock and roll on the rollers. 

PM Pete MOGR Forum Member

No embarrassment necessary Max - I wasn't suggesting you use JMRI. Just that it's about 1,000%  better than CVs in Hex!  

No need to learn it when there's a nice OEM alternative! The Lokprogrammer screens are very nice. At first glance I think the 20 and 40 kHz settings might be for frequency sent to the motor under DC operation. I think the thing you need to change is the "Adaptive regulation frequency" - checked or un-checked. And possibly try adjusting the "Back EMF sampling period" slider underneath. But I think it's the former. Checking and un-checking should change between variable frequency PWM under Back EMF that will drop into audible range at starting and slow speeds, vs. running at a fixed PWM frequency above audible. 

But like I said, I am definitely not 100% sure of this so hopefully Dave Heap can supply the correct answer. I would be grateful to hear his response!

EDIT: OK I just listened to the motor buzz. That sounds like a loco with no decoder!  I don't hear any kind of variable Back EMF or PWM control sounds happening there. None of my DCC decoders of all brands sound like that under any setting. But all my DC only locos sound exactly like that before I put the decoders in.  

WEIRD. Now I am quite confused, sorry.    

Pete  

 

 

Last edited by Pete M
MaxSouthOzMaxSouthOzOGR Forum Member

Ha ha!  That's two of us now, Pete.

I've run this past the dudes on the Loksound forum before, and their stock answer is TURN THE BEMF OFF.

Now, I've done some further testing.  First, I put the Atlas SDP-35 on the LP and ran it with the sound off.  To be fair, there is a tiny moaning sound, but it's easily drowned out by the engine sounds.

With the Weaver, the moaning is audible over the motor sounds.

I've tried the Adaptive Regulation Frequency slider in all of its 5 notches - and with the box checked and unchecked.

You guessed it.  No change.

Because Railroad&Co hates locos with no BEMF, the Weaver looks like being a non-starter.  I might have to box it up and head for O Scale Yard Sale if we can't get a break through.

By the way, what did you think of the dancing trucks?

Cheers

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