What are the best Lionel locomotives & eras for fixers / tinkerers?

They can all be repaired but depending on your skill in electronics you may want to avoid most made after 2000, or not if you feel comfortable with it.

 

Pete

I dunno, what would it take to gut all the half-baked/fried electronic boards out of a modern loco, and rebuild it as a dirt-simple conventional runner with smoke, bell, and whistle/horn?  And maybe even some sound.

I could be happy with something like that.  Maybe others could too. 

1950-1965  All of us really old people grew up with those and fixed them when we were kids and can do the same now.

I guess when you get right down to it just about every Lionel engine made between 1915 and the  early 1990s are definitely repairable by even the most heavy handed of repairmen/women.  I know 'cause I'm one of them.  Some Lionel Steam locomotives like the post-war 675, 2025 and 2037 are a little trickier than most because they are a tad more difficult to disassemble and re-assemble but if a person takes their time it is easily accomplished.  The only difficult part to work on are the locomotive's E-units in my opinion.  I've done a bunch of them but because of my shaky hands and stubby little fingers I find them to be a pain in the butt.  Performing maintenance on these engines is a world of fun.  Like many others I stay away from the modern stuff for the most part unless its to re-seat a loose board.

1945-1985. Avoid those ×%#$&# electronics!

Right on:   Post war Lionel, Marx 40s, 50s and 60s are the way to go.  No electronics, locos are easy to find in any condition, parts are still easy to find with many being reproduced, millions were made, and they are easy to repair.

Charlie

As stated above I would stick to the postwar stuff.  Easy to repair, and parts are available.  It really helps to have a service manual or exploded diagrams.

Alan

Nice topic.

I cast my vote for the prewar Lionel steam switchers, even though 2 of my last 3 needed to be sent away to have their wiring redone.  In their defense though, most are at 80-ish years old, so wiring can be an issue. 

They have a nice amount of realism and you or your dad should enjoy them.

I wasn't sure if you were looking for yourself or for him or both of you?

(This is a #228 where a prior owner had installed postwar couplers)

Tom 

Mixed Freight posted:

I dunno, what would it take to gut all the half-baked/fried electronic boards out of a modern loco, and rebuild it as a dirt-simple conventional runner with smoke, bell, and whistle/horn?  And maybe even some sound.

I could be happy with something like that.  Maybe others could too. 

That's exactly what I did with the TMCC Pennsylvania H8/9 I got off eBay. It hardly ran as is, so I gutted it, tossed all the electronics and am enjoying it as a plain Jane DC powered unit, smoker included. Runs like a champ, every time. 😊

Having said that, I find pretty much any era model can be worked on/repaired. That's where I get the most fun out of this hobby.

Mark in Oregon 

Thanks everyone for the insight. This is for my father, so avoiding the digital stuff is essential. 

I've seen from posts and articles in the past that the Northerns made by Lionel in the late 1980s came with problems but could be great runners once repaired. Has anyone had any experience with those?

JBuettner posted:

Thanks everyone for the insight. This is for my father, so avoiding the digital stuff is essential. 

I've seen from posts and articles in the past that the Northerns made by Lionel in the late 1980s came with problems but could be great runners once repaired. Has anyone had any experience with those?

I'm not exactly sure what Lionel Northerns from the late 1980s you are referring to which supposedly had problems.  The only ones which I am aware of would be the Norfolk and Western 612 Class J Northern and the Southern Pacific 4410 GS-2 Northern both from the late 1980s.  I have both of these engines and have never experienced a problem with either of them.  Perhaps someone who had problems with either one or both of these engines can chime in here.  Both have Railsounds but are conventionally controlled locomotives with Lionel post-war Berkshire type motors in them.  In any event if they require maintenance they are quite easy to attend to.  The shells come off very easily and then its just routine maintenance from there on out. 

Have lots of pre war and postwar engines , prewar electrics are nice and easy to work on like 251,252,253,254 nice thing is their e-unit is a wafer switch not the postwar type which can be hard for some folks.One of our 252 engine does have the postwar style thats the way some came later.

Postwar switchers and geeps/diesels are easy to work with most steam engines a little more time consuming because of the drive rods with exception of some such as the 671/2020  the boiler front pops off and holds the headlight remove 3 body screws the shell lifts off the frame pretty simple. 

Nice that your Dad is still at it .

JBuettner posted:

Thanks everyone for the insight. This is for my father, so avoiding the digital stuff is essential. 

I've seen from posts and articles in the past that the Northerns made by Lionel in the late 1980s came with problems but could be great runners once repaired. Has anyone had any experience with those?

Those are the Rock Island and Lackawanna northern from 1987 and 1988 (catalog nos. 18001 and 18003, cab nos. 5001 and 1501, respectively). The problem was that the armature bearing was bored too large, leading to a lot of wobble in the armature, noise, and eventually wear to the worm gear. Replacing the armature bearing is an easy fix, once you find the right part. There is a long thread on here somewhere detailing that. To replace the gear, you'd need to pull a wheel, and then you have to deal with quartering. If you get one with relatively low mileage, you can probably get away with just replacing the bearing.

These are built on the N&W J-class chassis, but the boiler is much "beefier". They look huge next to other traditional size engines and rolling stock, just as the real behemoths of the late steam era did. Among my favorite locos.

Not trying to throw a wrench in the works, but I’d say nothing is off limits for tinkering. Especially if the price is right.....even the most expensive fully loaded with every option ever locomotive can be made to run again by easily wiring in a bridge rectifier for less than a dollar.Or, if it’s a AC motor, hard wire it to track power.....when you boil model train locomotives down, they all have a motor or motors to make them go...........Pat

Post war without a doubt!

harmonyards posted:

Not trying to throw a wrench in the works, but I’d say nothing is off limits for tinkering. Especially if the price is right.....even the most expensive fully loaded with every option ever locomotive can be made to run again by easily wiring in a bridge rectifier for less than a dollar.Or, if it’s a AC motor, hard wire it to track power.....when you boil model train locomotives down, they all have a motor or motors to make them go...........Pat

I think that is more or less what I was saying...or trying to anyway. 

Mark in Oregon 

I just started working on Lionel's in the last year or so.Find the easiest (like someone said above)is the prewar engines.150,250 series electrics are good starters.Most of them have the wafer switch which is easier then an E unit.wiring is very simple.You will might need some special tools to make things easier. After being comfortable with these I started with engines with E units.

nickaix posted:

JBuettner posted:

Thanks everyone for the insight. This is for my father, so avoiding the digital stuff is essential. 

I've seen from posts and articles in the past that the Northerns made by Lionel in the late 1980s came with problems but could be great runners once repaired. Has anyone had any experience with those?

Those are the Rock Island and Lackawanna northern from 1987 and 1988 (catalog nos. 18001 and 18003, cab nos. 5001 and 1501, respectively). The problem was that the armature bearing was bored too large, leading to a lot of wobble in the armature, noise, and eventually wear to the worm gear. Replacing the armature bearing is an easy fix, once you find the right part. There is a long thread on here somewhere detailing that. To replace the gear, you'd need to pull a wheel, and then you have to deal with quartering. If you get one with relatively low mileage, you can probably get away with just replacing the bearing.

These are built on the N&W J-class chassis, but the boiler is much "beefier". They look huge next to other traditional size engines and rolling stock, just as the real behemoths of the late steam era did. Among my favorite locos.

My brain must have froze but for the life of me I couldn't recall those engines even though they were notoriously bad runners and that's why I never bought them.  Geez, maybe that's why I didn't remember them. 

I'd focus on the motors vs electronics being there or not.  The old style open frame motors were still used in some tmcc engines. Magnetraction too.  

The bridge rectifier for can motors works geat if you can live without a  reverse from the throttle; running style dictates is acceptability. An on board dpdt for a "manual" reverse can be done too. (I've never used the two that I installed them on)

A rectifier at the transformer on a dpdt, could fast swap ac/dc to the track; no need for another power supply really.

Another dpdt for reversing and you are ready for shunting too.

You don't want dc going to air whistles/horn relays though. (they will blow non-stop)

OKHIKER posted:

nickaix posted:

JBuettner posted:

Thanks everyone for the insight. This is for my father, so avoiding the digital stuff is essential. 

I've seen from posts and articles in the past that the Northerns made by Lionel in the late 1980s came with problems but could be great runners once repaired. Has anyone had any experience with those?

Those are the Rock Island and Lackawanna northern from 1987 and 1988 (catalog nos. 18001 and 18003, cab nos. 5001 and 1501, respectively). The problem was that the armature bearing was bored too large, leading to a lot of wobble in the armature, noise, and eventually wear to the worm gear. Replacing the armature bearing is an easy fix, once you find the right part. There is a long thread on here somewhere detailing that. To replace the gear, you'd need to pull a wheel, and then you have to deal with quartering. If you get one with relatively low mileage, you can probably get away with just replacing the bearing.

These are built on the N&W J-class chassis, but the boiler is much "beefier". They look huge next to other traditional size engines and rolling stock, just as the real behemoths of the late steam era did. Among my favorite locos.

My brain must have froze but for the life of me I couldn't recall those engines even though they were notoriously bad runners and that's why I never bought them.  Geez, maybe that's why I didn't remember them. 

The Rock Island and DL&W 4-8-4 Northerns would be great locos for your father to work on.  I picked up a Rock Island unit earlier this year for a song and a dance at a train show.  The engine itself has the motor, a mechanical e-unit w/reverse lever that projects through the shell, a smoke unit, and a headlight.  Fully capable of running by itself without the tender.  After a partial disassembly and inspection, I suspect that someone in the past has already fixed the armature bearing.  I couldn't find any signs of excess play.   Although I have no experience with postwar steam, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if this engine isn't almost identical to the postwar stuff in terms of general construction and engineering principles.

The tender on the other hand, has an electronics board featuring the sound of steam, a speaker, and an on/off switch for the sound.  It also provides the whistle sound.  Since my "Sounds of Steam" sounds like k-rap (I suspect the sound isn't as good as when it was new), I could easily toss the board and not be out anything except the steam sounds and the whistle.  I suppose I could live without the steam sounds.  But no whistle?  Okay, that kinda' sucks! 

2026's and other 2-6-4's, 675's seem to be in plentiful amounts for restoration / rebuilding.

I appreciate the collected insight on the 18003 and other Northerns of that type. Maybe I can find one for a song at York later this week. It's armature bearing issue is just the kind of challenge my dad likes.

 

What a great topic, JB! Thanks so much for the focus, and kind regards to your good father.

I agree wholeheartedly that the best era/models are late 40's though 1969 Lionel O Gauge, especially the Prairie 2-6-2 like the 224 and 675, and the Adriatic 2-6-4 like the 637. I find it hard to love the Scouts, yet some how many endure and run when younger models don't. Without a tempermental  E-Unit, or  annoying  Scout reversing,  unit (like to 1060)  they run and run. Opening up the motor, however, is not a great idea.

QUERY No. 1: How could postwar rolling stock be improved while remaining faithful to postwar technology? 

QUERY No. 2: When will a tool be make to make  E-Unit repair less frustrating?

Hope to see some of you this week in York! I will be at the METCA table. and at the Thursday breakfast at Round the Clock Diner.

Great topic - having just finished (although they're never really finished) a new, command control layout,  I'd like to change my focus a little to attempting to mechanically restoring/repairing old loco's as well and bringing them back to life.

Is there a good book or guide to repairing post/pre war engines ?

Thanks

Lionel postwar locos were pretty much "bulletproof" and sturdy, durable toy trains. The most "complex" innard was the electro-mechanical e-unit, and with the right tools and parts, could fairly easily be rebuilt/repaired! Long live postwar Lionel!

Richie C. posted:

Great topic - having just finished (although they're never really finished) a new, command control layout,  I'd like to change my focus a little to attempting to mechanically restoring/repairing old loco's as well and bringing them back to life.

Is there a good book or guide to repairing post/pre war engines ?

Thanks

"Greenberg's Repair & Operating Manual"; everything you'll need to know for post-war...

Mark in Oregon

Thanks - nice Gibson, I think.

Sorry to be a pest, but what were the major differences between pre and post war Lionel - was it just the E-units or were there differences in motors and materials ?

Is there a quick way for a novice to tell the difference between pre and post war ?

Thanks, again.

 

On pre vs postwar, being diecast vs tin is the easiest way, though some cast units are actually prewar, not many. Or look online for info. If you find nothing, it's most likely prewar Motors, wheels and materals do differ, but under the hood, basics didn't change much until can motors came along. Prewar parts even made it into postwar transformers. Another thing to note is new bearing availability for anything magnetraction. A 2037 can be rebuilt with 2026 bearings(I think that is the #) but it won't have magnetraction when your done. The magnetraction units use a special bearing metal (and gear, gear stud(?)& axle) and aren't made anymore. (I really need a 2037 pair bad if you Yorkies see any) Some are plentiful, some aren't.

@HCSader73 Pete there is a lever tool and a "reverse" inside dimension clamp/spreader. Nothing else I know of. Heavy hemostats for fishing parts, pushing, etc.

On rolling stock?  Hiding micro bearings in the blunt axle trucks after they round out too far is my only thought. The drag of old cast truck axles

is pretty strong. (tin, is thinner, has less "bearing" surface, so spins a little better imo)

HCSader73 posted:

QUERY No. 1: How could postwar rolling stock be improved while remaining faithful to postwar technology?

By buying MPC rolling stock.

While Postwar locomotives are unmatched (except maybe by certain prewar locomotives) modern era rolling stock, made from the same molds as postwar, is superior to it in most respects. It looks better, it rolls better, and it is available in more variety. The only point that is iffy is the couplers, and for the most part the modern ones work fine... yes, with the plastic armature and the thumb tack even.

As far as "post war technology," only one year separated 1969 from 1970 and its newfangled Delrin trucks, needle-point axles, and fast-angle wheels.

If anyone asks, I was never here...

Richie C. posted:

Thanks - nice Gibson, I think.

Thank you.

Actually, it's an Epiphone "Sheraton ll" by Gibson. I had a 335 once; this is as good.

Here's my real pride and joy:   

1962 Guild TB-100N: made in Hoboken, New Jersey. I got it in 1978. Everyone who's ever played this has wanted to buy it... 

Mark in Oregon

Adriatic posted:

@HCSader73 Pete there is a lever tool and a "reverse" inside dimension clamp/spreader. Nothing else I know of. Heavy hemostats for fishing parts, pushing, etc.

On rolling stock?  Hiding micro bearings in the blunt axle trucks after they round out too far is my only thought. The drag of old cast truck axles

is pretty strong. (tin, is thinner, has less "bearing" surface, so spins a little better imo)

Butch, the spreader pliers are fine to open the E-Unit, but there ought to be a way to position the 4 finger and 2 finger contacts and the drum without needing 3 hands. Perhaps replacement drums should have longer axles to hold the drum in place while the E-Unit case is open and can be clipped when closed.

I have zeroed in on the prewar semi scale 0-6-0 switchers. Catalog numbers 227, 228, 230, 231, 232, and 233.  These locos fall between the prewar bent tab assembly method and the post war semi tubular rivet assemble. They are assembled almost exclusively with threaded fasteners. Also they use the OO eunit, which is much easier to work on the O gauge eunit.  They are made of very heavy zinc castings, which do not exhibit the zinc corrosion problems of many prewar and modern locomotives. They are geared low and run smooth and quite and a reasonable speed.  

Down side of these locos is that they were made from 1939 to 1942 and repair parts are getting a little hard to find.  The stub shaft for the idler gears was not adequately secured and comes loose, potentially causing problems.  This problem is repairable using Loctite products.  There is one fiber gear, which helps the loco run quite, but is a potential problem area.  The cloth insulated pushback wire generally needs replacing, but a complete rewiring is a reasonable task.  

The remake of this loco in 1989 (?) as 18000, has made many interchangeable parts available.  But only about half of the modern era parts will interchange with the prewar loco.  Even the modern era 18000 parts are starting to get a little hard to find.  

These are desirable locomotives and will run, for one in reasonable condition, between $400 and $2000.  They can easily be converted to post war couplers and will run on post war track and switches.  

 

David,

  Yes, the remake first came out in 1989 and was the cover girl of the 1989 New York City Lionel Toy Fair catalog. In the catalog, they hyped the new release. 

Tom 

Post war and some prewar Lionel. Forget anything with a circuit board, they are beyond me. I had a friend years ago had about 300 locomotives

that he wanted serviced. He had a Lionel Mallet, thing was about 3 feet long with the tender, I told him I could not fix that one but I knew someone that

could, he gave me a blank check and I took it to a hobby shop in Syracuse NY. $280.00 later, the loco was fixed, they had to replace two circuit boards

in the tender.

HCSader73 posted:

Adriatic posted:

@HCSader73 Pete there is a lever tool and a "reverse" inside dimension clamp/spreader. Nothing else I know of. Heavy hemostats for fishing parts, pushing, etc.

On rolling stock?  Hiding micro bearings in the blunt axle trucks after they round out too far is my only thought. The drag of old cast truck axles

is pretty strong. (tin, is thinner, has less "bearing" surface, so spins a little better imo)

Butch, the spreader pliers are fine to open the E-Unit, but there ought to be a way to position the 4 finger and 2 finger contacts and the drum without needing 3 hands. Perhaps replacement drums should have longer axles to hold the drum in place while the E-Unit case is open and can be clipped when closed.

I'm thinking a tiny dab of caulk/gasket maker could hold the finger boards in place on one side, remaining slightly flexible, to take some of the juggle out of the picture. I recall a couple of threads where they trimmed one board tab near 100% and gel crazy glued, etc.  it on that side. (acetone &/or dremel cleans glue from metal next rebuild.)

I always thought a hollow drum and pin axle might work, but your increasing bearing surface drag to drum width doing it... experiments would be called for.  

Longer end pins would also be harder to thread into the first hole with, as the now wider drum would have more angle going in and or frame needing even further spreading to get it to pop into place.  

In general, I would prefer longer tabs and end pins that I could trim back as well, but I get why it isn't that way too.  Most folks are very afraid to mod or fabricate on a "new" part.... they may spill the milk and the sky will surely fall shortly after  

Would that be original?; also comes into play.   (No; but that eunit frame would likely be in nicer shape overall and rebuildable "forever" vs dying when the fastening fails or metal mangles tto much/cracks etc)

@David Johnston I've been curious about these switchers for a while; the high price of the prewar originals has kept me on the fence.  In your opinion, how well does the 1989 reissue measure up in terms of operating smoothness?  A long time ago, I test-ran one briefly and found it stiff and "coggy."  Was this just a lack of break-in time?  On another occasion, I ran a prewar 763 and it seemed so smooooth, even compared to the vaunted 773, and especially to Lionel's 1980s Hudson reissues.  Is this true of the switchers also?  Are the prewar ones better runners??

Ted, I have heard it said on several occasions that the 18000, the 1989 remake of the 227 family of switchers, is the best modern locomotive Lionel ever made.  I do not have one, so it is hard for me to compare the operation.  I do know the 18000 was made with plastic gears. My preference for the worm and the worm wheel would be metal gears with proper lubrication. The 001E-185 e-unit used in the 227 family is far easier to maintain than the 259E e-unit.   However, if the 259E e-unit is working properly, there is no difference in their operating performance.  The motor in the 227 family is the same motor that is used in the 700E and the 763 with the exception of a slight difference in the mounting. In my opinion the Pullmor motor, like used in the 18000, is a better motor than the 700E motor.  But since the 700E motor only drives spur gears, the poor thrust arrangement in the 700E motor is not a big issue. I have never seen a 227 family switcher cog, but they are all well broken in, the newest being 76 years old, so it would be hard to compare.

The 227, 228, 323, and 233 all have complicated electrical equipment in the tender for the teledyne couplers or the magic electrol  reversing.  I do not use these features when I am running and do not believe the extra cost for engines with these tenders is justified.  If you look for a 230, with the 2230T tender you should be able to save quite a bit of money.  I believe the engines sold on eBay are over priced.  You should watch for these locos at train shows and auctions.  The 227 family locos that sell at a Stout Auction generally sell for less than what is being asked on eBay.  

When the grandkids come over to run the trains, about the only locos they run are the 227s. They run smooth and slower than newer locomotives.  However, I do not run any newly purchased engines until I have done a frame up reconditioning.  Everything is cleaned, repaired, and properly lubricated, so they should run well.  But from what I have heard, if you can find an 18000 at a good price, you may find you are happy with it. 

Ted S posted:

@David Johnston I've been curious about these switchers for a while; the high price of the prewar originals has kept me on the fence.  In your opinion, how well does the 1989 reissue measure up in terms of operating smoothness?  A long time ago, I test-ran one briefly and found it stiff and "coggy."  Was this just a lack of break-in time?  On another occasion, I ran a prewar 763 and it seemed so smooooth, even compared to the Vaunted 773, and especially to Lionel's 1980s Hudson reissues.  Is this true of the switchers also?  Are the prewar ones better runners??

Ted, I have one of those and I would recommend it. Many can be found on eBay for around $200. They are smooth runners, like their ancestors, they need oil and grease every now and then. I would bet that the model that you saw which was stiff and coggy was not properly greased on its exposed gears. 

As far as the original models, I have a couple of recently acquired #228's that I would say are as quiet as anything that comes out nowadays. Not bad for something that is in the 80-ish year old range of life. It's all about the grease...I just started using the smallest amount of Red "N" Tacky grease and I think it makes a difference. 

Tom