What causes pickup rollers to magnetize and stick to the truck block, causing a short?

John, the truck block is die cast, not steel, ….the roller can’t magnetize itself to the block,….it’s ferrous vs. non-ferrous, ….only ferrous can become magnetic. More than likely, when the derailment occurs, the roller is shorting to the block, and thus momentarily welding itself to the block,……as far as the other issues, post up some pics of your ailments, and maybe we can offer some remedies,…….it’s the wild wild west of locomotives anymore, …….

Pat

Pat, Thank you for the correction and clarification of terms I misused. I don't think a picture of the roller stuck up against the truck block could tell much, but I will take pictures if/when these things happen again. It is like waiting for a "train wreck."

The kinematic truck porches are nice for preserving area for front and rear hose and fittings details, but the stretch of two F40PH engines pulling on each other causes one of the front ends to left off the track.  The traction tires have great adhesion force, grabby tires.  The engines pulling on each other causes one of the engines to lose the "Tug-of-war" and lift up the opposite end and jump the track.

I guess there are several things at work causing the problem. The engines appear to run the same speed, except when they suddenly don't. That brief second is enough to send one of the engines off the rails.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Just for S&G’s John, try trading places with the engines in the lash up just to see if that make a difference……I know in theory it supposed to not matter, but in your case, I’d give it a shot just to see if there’s a difference,……

Pat

John Rowlen, I remember you. Dozens of posts about Lionel out of box issues. I thought you gave up some time ago.

That aside. In addition to what Pat said. What if your ran the engines a few inches apart around the layout but still in a "lashup"?

Maybe there's a single offending locomotive you could narrow it down to.

There's something to be said for the old unrealistic pilot that swings with the truck. They've always worked.

I'm not a fan of the kinematic couplers, I don't think they enhance appearance enough to make up for all the problems they create.

Pat, I will try reversing the position of CSX F40PH engines. Thank you. February 4, 2023 is a day dedicated to resolving this issue.

Rick O, I am a life-long Lionel fan since a baby when Dad set up an Erie AA freight train on a board under my bed. I have purchased many Lionel engines after selling my 22 acres in Hinckley, Ohio. Many engines went back to Lionel. Lionel cut checks to me for my Visionline Tuscan five-stripe GG! that's gears bound up. They also reimbursed my CSX F40PH #9998 that was damaged in three trips back to Lionel Service. I am still waiting over two years for the missing rear step on my 2033321 Union Pacific SD70AH that ran with the George HW Bush Funeral Train. The box is still here under my desk waiting, and Henning's Trains still has the part request on their desk. My Allegheny still does not run properly at speed step 25 and above. Lionel said, "they did the best they could".  I just discovered that my Legacy Pennsylvania K4 #5432 runs full speed when I turn on my ZWL transformer.  Sooo.... Today may turn out to be that day when I give up on Lionel. I fault the Chinese factory workers for packaging engines with missing parts, broken hoses, bent roof horns, and a yellow paint fingerprint smudge on the gray nose of a CSX-1.  Model Train Stuff opened three new CSX F40PH engines that were never sent to me because of flaws.  Out of 13 CSX F40PH engines, three were cosmetically acceptable. Now I am dealing with operational issues.

Gunrunner John, I have been away from the Forum for two years after my mother passed at age 94. I was her caregiver and quit teaching to take her on daily car rides and to Dairy Queen for ice cream. It was the best decision I ever made. We had a great time.   Now I have an Allegheny #1604 and a K4 #5432 that need servicing.  I hate to list items with issues on Ebay, so I need some skilled repair help before I sell them.  I have repaired engines when I have the mechanical skill, but electronics is not my area. If interested, please let me know. Henning's Trains has my contact information.

To Lionel, I am not standing up to you, but rather "at your side", eager to do all I can to make this hobby enjoyable and the great experience that it can be. My father, Paul, and I had many enjoyable years building and running our Lionel layouts. Ruth took over as my train buddy after his passing 31 years ago.

Wish me luck today as I run the three CSX F40PH. I have one good Rio Grande Ski Train F40PH #283 from Nicholas Smith Trains. Rich at MB Klein is sending another Ski Train #242 for the one that arrived with a broken air hose. The hoses are very thin and brittle. The cold winter weather probably does not help in shipping.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Pat,  There is a difference when I run the CSX F40PH lash-up backwards. The CSX-3 as lead engine jumped the track in a straight section of track.  The minimum curve on my "Valley of Bridges" layout is O-72.  The engine was just coming out of O-90 curves and was in the straight-away when it jumped the rails and shorted the ZWL transformer. The pickup roller was welded to the truck block as seen in the first picture.

RickO,   I spaced the three CSX F40PH engines 15" apart and ran them in a lash-up at different speeds with different results at each speed.  At Speed Step 60 the CSX-2 and -3 stayed in position, but the CSX-1 pulled ahead 18" after a loop around my layout.  At Speed Step 90 the CSX-1 and CSX-2 were the same distance apart, but the CSX-3 dropped back three engine lengths.  At Speed Step 100 the three engines ran at the same equal distance around the layout. At Speed Step 110 the CSX-2 ran into the back of the CSX-1 and the CSX-3 was 1-1/2 lengths behind both.  Each of the three CSX F40PH engines run at different speeds except at Speed Step 100.  The kinematic coupler porches just add to the push and pull of these inconsistent engines.

Gunrunner John,  Any comments?  I see no remedy other than to box the three engines up and send them back to Lionel.  Maybe they can do an autopsy on them and find a cure.  Thanks to Lionel Service I already have enough "Shelf Sitters".  At least Lionel is going to have many parts for these F40PH engines, though they may be broken or bent.

I will be selling my CSX Business Trains 21" passenger cars that are detailed with hand-painted Preiser Seated People.  I consider myself a sane person capable of making rational decisions. This is a no brainer, but my love of trains just drove me to persist.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

The 2021 Lionel Acela's pickup rollers also are prone to sticking up in the truck thus creating a short circuit across the track. For that engine the solution is to glue an 1/8" thick piece of Styrofoam to the truck, right under the roller.  This prevents the roller from comfortably nestling in the truck.

John, any chance you can shoot a video of this happening?……if it’s derailing the coupled trucks, I’d suspect something is misaligned with the kinematic couplers,…they can act weird sometimes, and not do their job, …..

Pat

@John Rowlen posted:

Gunrunner John,  Any comments?  I see no remedy other than to box the three engines up and send them back to Lionel.  Maybe they can do an autopsy on them and find a cure.  Thanks to Lionel Service I already have enough "Shelf Sitters".  At least Lionel is going to have many parts for these F40PH engines, though they may be broken or bent.

I doubt this is magnetism, it's much more likely a mechanical bind.  I've had several that did this, in every case I was able to cure the bind and solve the problem.  Bruce presented one solution, though I would probably use much thinner Styrene sheet to lesson the limitation of travel on the roller.

Another reason I found for the pickup to micro-weld to the loco is a bump in the track.  In my case 2 of my 4 postwar control tracks had the metal magnet core sticking up about 3/32"/2mm  My Atlas 0-4-0 kept micro welding the pickup to the cab when it hit the bump.  Since one end was still on the center rail, the other end would hit the frame and stick.  A 4oz/0.1KG hammer and careful application I got the buttons back down flush.   The control tracks still work fine and the Atlas now runs OK.

Bruce,  Thank you for this suggestion. I thought of electrical tape, but oil and time could drop that on the track and cause problems. I will look at CSX-3 to see if it will help.

Gunrunner John,  My luck with these CSX F40PH engines just keeps getting worse.  The left ditch light on CSX-2 just burned out. I finally had CSX-1 and CSX-2 running together. Three CSX F40PH is one too many. Two seem to work, , , so far.  (This isn't the first LED to burn out. The headlight on my BNSF "Golden Swoosh" went out after 30 minutes and had to go to Lionel Service.)

I am trying to get good engines, but that may not be possible. I have already had fourteen (14) F40PH engines looked at by dealers or sent to me and returned.

I will persist, but not for much longer. With LEDs failing already, these F40PH engines may have a very short life span. I don't buy engines for only one year. I expect them to last longer.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

This is the CSX Office Dining Car that I installed 1/4 inch strips of plastic to the back of the interior floor cubes to make chairs for the Preiser 65602 Unpainted Seated People that I will paint and install. I have painted the interiors of five of the new CSX 21" passenger cars, so getting working engines is important. I also have the first CSX eight-car passenger set with the Alabama Theater Camera Car.  (My first CSX #9998 was totally destroyed in three trips back to Lionel Service.)

Sincerely, John Rowlen

@John Rowlen posted:

Gunrunner John,  My luck with these CSX F40PH engines just keeps getting worse.  The left ditch light on CSX-2 just burned out. I finally had CSX-1 and CSX-2 running together. Three CSX F40PH is one too many. Two seem to work, , , so far.  (This isn't the first LED to burn out. The headlight on my BNSF "Golden Swoosh" went out after 30 minutes and had to go to Lionel Service.)

I've had a few LED's burned out, but usually I find a short that causes the issue.

GunrunnerJohn,  Thank you for the reply.  Since the ditch light LEDs are on substantial wire prongs that are separated from each other, where would a short likely occur in the wiring of these lights. The lights had been working so I am trying to imagine what could cause the sudden short in the closed engine body.  Would the problem be caused by heat melting a wire?  I had been running the two engines longer than any other time.  Usually, they would have jumped the track and shorted the ZWL transformer before this long.

I am reluctant to send the engine to Lionel Service because my last CSX F40PH #9998 was destroyed in three trips to Lionel Service.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Either lead of the ditch light getting grounded anywhere along it's route will zap the LED.  The one I just fixed on a Legacy ES44AC was a long ways from the actual ditch light.  The lead was the easy part, I had to replace the tiny surface mount LED inside the ditch light.  Then, to make them match in color perfectly, I had to replace the other one as well!

GunrunnerJohn,  Thank you for the information.

Maybe Mr. Muffins has another CSX-2. It would be the fifteenth F40PH engine in this purchase fiasco. Three engines Model Train Stuff never bothered to send after they opened them. and found missing parts, yellow paint on the gray nose, and mis glued and misaligned roof parts.  I am lucky they too had the experience of opening factory-sealed engines to discover issues with new engines.  It provides some verification to the issues I found in the engines sent to me.  Maybe I need to open new engines with cameras rolling like some other model railroaders do.

Sincerely, Johm Rowlen

Funny thing, the last run of the F40PH engines were a troubled lot as well, the main issue was routing the lighting wiring over the flywheel, and when it came loose with the anemic tape they used, the flywheel would chew through it and kill the RCMC.  I saw this a couple of times live, so when mine came I opened it up and fixed it before it self-destructed.

Pat, I have been re-reading this thread for answers and want to let you know that I had one engine I returned to Rich at Model Train Stuff that appeared to lock couplers together. The moving flange seemed to curve back inward too much. The front coupler on my Alaska Camera Caboose has a coupler that binds against the coupler of the car it is connected to, and jumps the track.  Oiling the coupler faces did not help.  The couplers need to be able to rise and fall against each other or they exert force and can cause the car to jump the track.

I am returning CSX-2 with the burned-out left ditch light tomorrow. Tonight I am pairing CSX-1 and CSX-3 to see if those two will run well together in a lash-up.  I will first run them 18" apart to see if they gain on each other.  I am determined to try every possible solution I can think of.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

@John Rowlen posted:

Pat, I have been re-reading this thread for answers and want to let you know that I had one engine I returned to Rich at Model Train Stuff that appeared to lock couplers together. The moving flange seemed to curve back inward too much. The front coupler on my Alaska Camera Caboose has a coupler that binds against the coupler of the car it is connected to, and jumps the track.  Oiling the coupler faces did not help.  The couplers need to be able to rise and fall against each other or they exert force and can cause the car to jump the track.

I am returning CSX-2 with the burned-out left ditch light tomorrow. Tonight I am pairing CSX-1 and CSX-3 to see if those two will run well together in a lash-up.  I will first run them 18" apart to see if they gain on each other.  I am determined to try every possible solution I can think of.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

John, I hope those two at least  cooperate for you!….keep us posted,….

Pat

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Funny thing, the last run of the F40PH engines were a troubled lot as well, the main issue was routing the lighting wiring over the flywheel, and when it came loose with the anemic tape they used, the flywheel would chew through it and kill the RCMC.  I saw this a couple of times live, so when mine came I opened it up and fixed it before it self-destructed.

Recently fell victim to this with my Amtrak F40PH in Amtrak Phase 2 paint(I have at least one powered & npcu unit from each run) so it's from the 2016 run. It suddenly started shorting, and every time I'd take the body screws out, put it on the track with the shell in place- and it was fine. I'd put the screws back in- it started shorting again. I'd turn on the power to my track, and the Legacy PM would do its foldback and I'd be ready to press the warning button. One time when I quickly took it off the track the pick-up roller was so hot it felt like a soldering iron on my arm(there was a spark that left a black spot on my rail).

All that said, yes of luck to those of you with these issues. If working in command, a 10amp fuse between the power source and track as well as a TVS. Those and the PH 180s plus legacy 360 watt Powermaster really give extra protection that has undoubtedly saved many of my locos.

DECISION TIME:  It is not a happy time.  It is not the outcome I hoped for.

I am sending the Lionel F40PH engines back.

There were the initial parts missing in Factory sealed boxes.

There were broken and bent parts in factory-sealed boxes.

Two had ditch lights shoved into the nose of the F40PH engines.

When I finally had three engines to keep, they jumped the track in straight-aways, and the pickup rollers were stuck against the bottom of the truck block.

Perhaps the dead shorts accelerated the ditch light failure on CSX-2.

The kinematic couplers porches worked with two powered engines, but not three.  The additional powered engine added to the push and pull on the one engine running a little slower or faster and shoved it off the track.

The one upside is that I had fun painting the passenger car interiors and adding Preiser 65602 seated people to the 21" passenger cars that I will be selling on Ebay.

"Never did the course of true love run smooth." - William Shakespeare

Sincerely, John Rowlen.