2021 CW80 Transformer What is New & Improved?

I think @Dave Olson is your best source to find answers. I know Dave has mentioned the new CW-80 before on the forum I do t remember what thread I’d have to go searching but I do remember some.

from what I recall it is very close to the new PH180 power supply so it will no longer need the cheep fan that makes a lot of noise. And it will also be UL approved (if I recall correctly) so I’m sure there a LOT of little things we might never think is necessary that UL will require

@zhubl posted:

I think @Dave Olson is your best source to find answers. I know Dave has mentioned the new CW-80 before on the forum I do t remember what thread I’d have to go searching but I do remember some.

from what I recall it is very close to the new PH180 power supply so it will no longer need the cheep fan that makes a lot of noise. And it will also be UL approved (if I recall correctly) so I’m sure there a LOT of little things we might never think is necessary that UL will require

Zachariah, Thanks for the tip.

Going back to Jan 2020, the only mention of Lionel transformer details by @Dave Olson I found on OGR was in the discussion of the third pin safety in the Molex connector of the new PH180 which UL requires (for a load to be connected before turning power on AC Voltage at the output).  It stands to reason that the new CW80 (no hyphen) would have the same UL requirements:

https://ogrforum.com/...4#153463017275143304

Are there any other Improvements to the new CW80?

I suspect until it's in folks hands and maybe someone takes one apart, we won't really know what has changed.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I suspect until it's in folks hands and maybe someone takes one apart, we won't really know what has changed.

John, you may very well be correct.  Since I've read in a few recent posts that some folks may be postponing buying a transformer to power their upgraded layouts, expecting the new CW80 to meet their needs, I thought posting on the Lionel Products forum and asking these questions might yield some insight, and help people decide if it would be worth the wait.

Hopefully Dave @Dave Olson will provide some additional answers about the New and Improved CW80?.

For the same money, you can have what I consider to be a far superior transformer, the MRC AH501.  Pure sine wave output and a genuine 130 watts of power on the output.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

For the same money, you can have what I consider to be a far superior transformer, the MRC AH501.  Pure sine wave output and a genuine 130 watts of power on the output.

Maybe so, but the MRC's red color doesn't match Lionel's .  Thanks for doing what you can to get Dave to respond.

John - looks like the MRC-AH501 is indeed a good alternative to the CW-80.  Unfortunately it is listed as discontinued and no longer available.  I'm sure there are used ones out there.

Yep, I just picked up one for my test bench, got tired of dealing with the oddities of the MTH Z-1000 when testing certain locomotives, oddly enough MTH PS/1 locomotives where the worst offenders.

@SteveH posted:

Maybe so, but the MRC's red color doesn't match Lionel's .  Thanks for doing what you can to get Dave to respond.

It might be worth a shot emailing Dave if you haven't already tried. I've exchanged emails with him over product questions in the past.

Granted. Its virtual York and they've got new product coming in, so maybe he's busy.

@RickO posted:

It might be worth a shot emailing Dave if you haven't already tried. I've exchanged emails with him over product questions in the past.

Granted. Its virtual York and they've got new product coming in, so maybe he's busy.

Rick, thanks for the tip.  I think I'll wait and give him more time to reply here.

Lionel just recently posted a video on YouTube detailing the updates to the transformer. I’ve attached the link below!

https://youtu.be/8lAw3B4hnAk

@SteveH posted:

I've seen the Lionel 2021 Catalog entry and what's on the Lionel Product site,

CW80 Transformer (New & Improved) SKU: 1908080

http://www.lionel.com/products...ew-improved-1908080/

80 Watt AC power supply
Throttle lever to control speed and power. Operate your favorite features with the bell, whistle/horn, and direction buttons.
0-18 volt variable programmable AC output for accessory operation

Compatible power supply for:

    LionChief
    LionChief Plus
    LionChief Plus 2.0
    Legacy
    Traditional transformer locomotives
    Plug-Expand-Play Accessories
    Traditional Accessories
    Built-in circuit protect for derailments and shorts

PRODUCT SPECIFICATIONS

    Rail Line: Great Northern
    Road Number: 246
    Power: Electric
    Dimensions: Length: 14"

This information still leaves me wondering what, at it's core, will be different from the older CW80 and what other Improvements it will have.

For instance, does it still use a switching power supply for it's AC output or does it use a variable transformer output like it's Postwar siblings?

Will it cause issues when connected to a Powermaster (the possibility of "unpredictable operation" like the 6-14198 CW80)?

How fast does it disconnect the output in case of a short circuit and does it use a relay or solid-state circuitry to break the connection?

Does it have built-in TVS (Transient Voltage Suppression)?

An Internet search has not revealed any more information about the new CW80.  Does anyone here have more definitive information about this Product that I've heard rumored to be available this fall?

The only thing about the new one that is the appearance.  Everything is new on the inside.  There is no fan and no heat.

@Zach K and @RixTrack Thanks for the replies.  Dave's video seems to answer my questions, mostly.

Looking at the most recent catalog photo of the new CW-80 Transformer, I noticed that it looked a lot like the old CW-80 Transformer. I wouldn't be surprised if Lionel used an old photo for the catalog.

Visually, how are we supposed to tell them apart?

I still run conventional and while I have ZW's, a KW and a LW to use, I often set up a ready to run set for the grandkids to use.

@Sean007 posted:

Visually, how are we supposed to tell them apart?

I'm sure the label on the transformer will be unique.  I suspect they used the same molds for the case, why reinvent the wheel?

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'm sure the label on the transformer will be unique.  I suspect they used the same molds for the case, why reinvent the wheel?

GunrunnerJohn - you are probably right!

Here is a link to a different Lionel video where Dave goes much more into detail on the development, differences and detail of the new CW80.

YouTube: Demos with Dave Episode 13 - CW80

This video Dave goes over the new CW-80

at 5:00 he tells you how you can tell the difference

Edit: Steims made his reply as I was writing mine

For one thing, my new CW-80 has the smoothest operating handle I've ever seen in a transformer. So much smoother that when you first turn it on and before voltage is applied to the track, the weight of the handle actually shuts it back off.  Same for the top end where it goes from almost full throttle to full throttle under its own weight.  Not a problem at the top end because at that point you are going to full power anyway for remote control.  I do have a message into Lionel questioning if there is a fix for this.  Otherwise, no change on the exterior and it's GREAT not having to listen to a cooling fan.

Ron

@SteveH posted:

I've seen the Lionel 2021 Catalog entry and what's on the Lionel Product site,

CW80 Transformer (New & Improved) SKU: 1908080

http://www.lionel.com/products...ew-improved-1908080/

80 Watt AC power supply
Throttle lever to control speed and power. Operate your favorite features with the bell, whistle/horn, and direction buttons.
0-18 volt variable programmable AC output for accessory operation

Compatible power supply for:

    LionChief
    LionChief Plus
    LionChief Plus 2.0
    Legacy
    Traditional transformer locomotives
    Plug-Expand-Play Accessories
    Traditional Accessories
    Built-in circuit protect for derailments and shorts

PRODUCT SPECIFICATIONS

    Rail Line: Great Northern
    Road Number: 246
    Power: Electric
    Dimensions: Length: 14"

This information still leaves me wondering what, at it's core, will be different from the older CW80 and what other Improvements it will have.

For instance, does it still use a switching power supply for it's AC output or does it use a variable transformer output like it's Postwar siblings?

Will it cause issues when connected to a Powermaster (the possibility of "unpredictable operation" like the 6-14198 CW80)?

How fast does it disconnect the output in case of a short circuit and does it use a relay or solid-state circuitry to break the connection?

Does it have built-in TVS (Transient Voltage Suppression)?

An Internet search has not revealed any more information about the new CW80.  Does anyone here have more definitive information about this Product that I've heard rumored to be available this fall?

According to Dave Olsen on the Lionel YouTube video, tether internal design is identical to the near bulletproof 180 watt power house that is part of the age-180.

The easiest identifier of the new version of the CW80 is the power lens cap on the left. It has a clear lens cap in lieu of the green lens cap of the old version.

@Bill Henning posted:

The easiest identifier of the new version of the CW80 is the power lens cap on the left. It has a clear lens cap in lieu of the green lens cap of the old version.

Thanks Bill - I hadn't noticed the different colored power lens cap!

Has anyone experienced in-use the breaker protection of this new product yet? Still so new so maybe not.  As mentioned in the video it's based off the ideas of the PH180.  Wondering if it's as fast acting as the protection in the 180. (not as a substitute for a TVS for additional protection).  Or the MTH Z1000 that is often recommended in place of the old CW80?   

Z

One would think since they already have the technology for the 180 brick, it should be in the new CW80.

@romiller49 posted:

One would think since they already have the technology for the 180 brick, it should be in the new CW80.

Apples and oranges.  The PH180 is a fixed voltage transformer with an electronic circuit breaker.  The CW-80 is a variable voltage transformer, so the majority of the electronics is to provide the variable voltage.

The sad part of this is the amount of time it took to fix this.  I had sent a 20 page engineering report to Dick Maddox, and John Brady warning them of the eminent failure of this transformer when it was first introduced.  I had an early engineering sample in my possession.  The report included temperature curves, part specs for the output FET, indicating how it wasn't rated for the power to be dissipated by the device, the improper use of the labels on the output binding posts.  (reversed) It also included much more in the way of graphs and other engineering specs. The fact that the binding posts could spin in the transformer, and many other engineering defects the device had.

The devices failed like crazy the first Christmas.  I had several calls from John Brady saying they wished they did what my report suggested as fixes etc.  They wanted to know of possible fixes within a certain cost.  In reality, when a dealer got one in as defective, the customer was simply given a new transformer, the dealer cut off and sent the cord back, and received credit for the new transformer!  That's how Lionel handled some issues back in the late 90's early 2000's.

I should add I do believe there was a fix applied in the early 2000's to address many of the failure issues.

Demos with Dave on YouTube has Dave explaining the new transformer.  It’s the same technology as the 180 bricks.

@donhradio posted:

I should add I do believe there was a fix applied in the early 2000's to address many of the failure issues.

Too bad they didn't fix the ringing in the output waveform when they addressed those other issues.

I'm not sure if anyone else has really test-drove this new model yet, but I'd like to contribute my findings for anyone who is just curious, or has been hesitant to buy one (due to bad rep of the previous ones). Been testing daily for almost two weeks straight:

CW-80ni (current version) is a really fantastic little transformer with a good small footprint and just enough power for almost every average need. It actually seems to put out about 17.5-18 volts, a true 80 watts, and handles about 4-4.5 amps. It runs cool for long periods of time and only gets slightly warm after a lot of use, but this is normal.

I have test run the following so far:
MTH Proto-Sound (1.0) by QSI - 3rd Gen (1996-1997)
MTH Proto-Sound (1.0) by QSI - 4th/Final Gen (1998-2000)
MTH Loco-Sound (2000-200?)
MTH (& Other brands) Conventional QSI "DCRU" (1993-199?)
MTH Proto-Sound 2.0 5v (2001-2003)
MTH Proto-Sound 2.0 3v (2004-2011)
MTH/Atlas Proto-Sound 3.0 (2011-present)

Lionel Modern Electronic PCB Conventional (1990s-present)
Lionel TMCC RSII-RS5.0 (1994-2007)
Lionel Legacy R4LC (2006-2010)
Lionel Legacy RCMC (2011-present) *both Bluetooth & Non-Bluetooth

My dates my be a little off, but tried my best to identify approximate release time-frames from memory.

All of the above run flawlessly with the CW-80ni. Only things I have yet to try are pre-1990s Lionel locomotives with mechanical E-units and air whistles. (Some modern transformers, like Z-1000, struggle or have a sweet spot when activating postwar air whistles so it will be interesting to see how the CW-80ni handles those).

I'm not even going to bother trying early 1st and 2nd Gen MTH Proto-1 locos with it as I already know those will hate the chopped sine wave and either not respond or respond unreliably. (Best thing is to just update those top boards and/or chips to final Gen PS1.)

My test bench Z-1000, after several years, has been replaced by this new CW-80 for now. Takes up half the space and works great. Really like it.

No more noisy cooling fan or flimsy unreliable and unpredictable functionality like the long-running previous generation. This thing actually performs. Well done, Lionel.

*ALSO OF NOTE - I am running mine through my TIU for ASC purposes and this set up is working flawlessly. I am using the ACC terminal on the CW-80ni set at 18v constant through my FIXED 1 INPUT to power my TIU. I am also running the Track Output (CW-80ni Throttle) through the FIXED 2 INPUT. My test track is connected to FIXED 2 OUTPUT. This is giving me the flexibility I need with a small footprint and it works wonderfully.

I've actually had no reliability problems with the first generation CW80. However, is there a way to quiet the noisy fan?

Thanks fellows, I’m sold and will be ordering one for my test bench. I am tired of the fan/buz noise. My layout is ran by 180 watt power bricks via powermasters. Thank you Dave Olson for the informative video, Wow. Happy Railroading Everyone

Did anyone experience problems with the handle on the new CW-80, my handle feels loose, and flimsy compared to the old transformer. My new transformer does operate, and I do appreciate the quiet operation due to the fan free design. I am just wondering about the new handle.

The new handle does indeed have a loose feel.  As a matter of fact, it will actually shut itself off at the low end of its travel from the weight of the handle itself.  Luckily, mine has already reached zero volts when it does this.  Kind of like a soft close kitchen cabinet door or drawer.  Problem is that it also does this on the top end from 18 plus volts to almost 20.  

The handle itself isn’t flimsy, but the movement of the potentiometer is too loose.  Mine is a backup transformer and so I have not yet tried to figure out a cure for this behavior.  It’s true it shouldn’t work this loosely and I wonder if Lionel has an in-house cure for this.  I’m not too worried and will figure out a cure when the time comes.

Ron

yeah I had the same issue, the handle was just too loose and I had a really hard time when running conventional getting the speed right.  If I moved the handle just the slightest bit the result speed increase or decrease was hard to manage given how loose the handle is.   I have removed mine from my layout and have it as a backup for now. 

Since this post came up, I got mine out a worked on it  a little.  One fix that I haven’t refined yet is a circular soft foam insert inside the handle that won’t be seen but will put pressure between the handle and transformer case providing enough friction for proper operation.

Another quick fix is to cut a piece of black cardboard or other material to fit between the handle and case to provide the necessary friction.

Any other suggestions would be welcome.  I don’t want to go through the hassle of sending it back, as other than this odd behavior, the transformer works fine.

Ron

I bought the new CW-80 back in July '22, to use on my workbench - replacing an old P/W ZW.  It's proved to be a great upgrade.

My unit does not have the loose handle - FWIW.

I returned my New CW 80 that was purchased in Dec. 2021 to Lionel for repair of the loose handle/potentiometer problem. I hope that they have a fix for it. Other than the handle operation the transformer works great.