What have you pre ordered recently?

Personally, I refuse to participate in the whole "BTO/PO" process. In fact, I find it distasteful.

We went for over 100 years without it and everything was relatively fine. Were there manufacturers/dealers who took a hit with inventory they couldn't unload or companies that went out of business ? Sure - but that's business. Since when do consumers have to guarantee the profitability of manufacturers and  retailers ? Is there a business out there where you're guaranteed to make a profit  - I don't think so.

Knowing how much product to produce is part of being a good business, but now the manufacturers want to shift that responsibility to us by requiring "pre-orders" so they're guaranteed not to have overstock issues. And who does that benefit - the manufacturers and dealers, of course, and not the consumer. One thing is for sure - if a manufacturer dreams it up, it is probably not in the consumer's best interest - it's in theirs. "BTO/PO" is not a "win-win" situation and here's some of the reasons why:

Commitment to Purchase - I understand that you can back out, but I know that there will be dealers complaining about people who do back out and putting them on their blacklist. So, if I change my mind or can't come up with the scratch, all of a sudden my LHS looks and treats me differently. I guarantee this has happened and will continue to happen. Why should I, as a consumer, feel the pressure and be compelled to follow through on a purchase for fear that I won't get the best deal at my LHS anymore if I have to cancel and order.

Deposits - yes, there are some dealers who don't require a deposit, but some who do. If they do, the consumer is simply bankrolling the manufacturer/dealer. 

Frustration - apparently, some people feel that, as consumers, we should expect the inevitable delays that come with "BTO/PO". Really ? Is that how we've come to do business in America, now ? Order a product with a due date and then have to wait an extra 3-6-12 months for it to come in ? And all the while, I've held off on buying that other steamer because I should be getting that new one I pre-ordered "any day now". Try explaining that to an eight year old. 

Sensory Deprivation - ok, maybe a little extreme and maybe I'm old school, but the point is I like to see, hear, smell and touch the stuff I'm buying as much as possible, especially when I'm paying $500 - $1K for a toy product, and I can't do that with "BTO/PO". I also enjoy the simple pleasure and experience of being able to stop in at my LHS and walk around and see what's new and maybe buy it if I like it. That doesn't happen much anymore because so much product is bought on "BTO/PO". In fact, I may never even get to see it on the shelves at my LHS if everyone fulfills their order. So, unless my LHS happened to order a few extras of that new diesel, I may never have a chance to buy it and they also lose out.

Can you imagine going to your local store to buy a lawn mower or refrigerator and being told you had to "pre-order" it and there's none available ?

Just my .02 cents, but I have a feeling I'm speaking for a lot of us out there who wish the system would revert back.

Rich

Richie C. posted:

Personally, I refuse to participate in the whole "BTO/PO" process. In fact, I find it distasteful.

We went for over 100 years without it and everything was relatively fine. Were there manufacturers/dealers who took a hit with inventory they couldn't unload or companies that went out of business ? Sure - but that's business. Since when do consumers have to guarantee the profitability of manufacturers and  retailers ? Is there a business out there where you're guaranteed to make a profit  - I don't think so.

Knowing how much product to produce is part of being a good business, but now the manufacturers want to shift that responsibility to us by requiring "pre-orders" so they're guaranteed not to have overstock issues. And who does that benefit - the manufacturers and dealers, of course, and not the consumer. One thing is for sure - if a manufacturer dreams it up, it is probably not in the consumer's best interest - it's in theirs. "BTO/PO" is not a "win-win" situation and here's some of the reasons why:

 

Unfortunately when one looks at the number of actual units produced at this scale for typical run, this comparison is not at all reflective of the O gauge market in the 21st century.  None of the manufacturers in O are large companies and they have high overhead with not a lot of profit.  Without pre-orders there would be no new product, no innovation, nor any incentive to invest in new tooling.   

O scale manufacturers are starting to move in this direction anyway and we are seeing some companies just showing the same locomotives every 2nd or 3rd year in their catalog.  That is unfortunate, but without knowing who is willing to invest in a specific locomotive it is the smart business move.

The practice of pre-orders is not nearly as common in HO and N due to the larger market share they enjoy.

Back on topic:

My Pre-orders

GGD Amfleet Cars - Expect to go into production in late 2018 at this point.

Sunset PA  - Late 2017 production

Sunset SD40-2 - Probably happening in 2018

Richie C. posted:

...

Can you imagine going to your local store to buy a lawn mower or refrigerator and being told you had to "pre-order" it and there's none available ?

...

Rich, all of your points are well taken.

My additional comments here probably won't be well-received by the "my company can do no wrong" cheer-leading crowd, but they'll just need to put on their big-boy and big-girl pants and deal with it.  The simple fact of the matter is many of the toy train importers are counting on the fact that enthusiasts here have an INSATIABLE need to buy more and more trains.    And by leveraging that phenomenon, they get away with a LOT of nonsense business practices that folks wouldn't generally accept in other areas of everyday life.

Lionel is currently the worst offender of shifting "risk" away from the importer to the dealer/distributor network.  But that's largely because their business model supported a large dealer network for decades, and the largest Lionel dealers were the guys who could "afford" to place large orders of product with Lionel (with better volume prices)... and folks would order product from those "large" dealers because they knew their orders would be fulfilled at good prices (in the old business model).  Fast-forward to TODAY, and the new BTO paradigm:  small to medium-sized dealers tolerate the increased risk of their buying "extra" BTO items, because now they're able to better compete at getting pre-orders when they know their orders are backed by real customer pre-orders which they didn't have in the old business model (to a large degree).

The irony with all of this is the BTO model was really a poke in they eye to Lionel's largest dealers like Charlie Ro.  So all those years (decades) of a tight and loyal business arrangement quickly changed overnight when Lionel's new executive wonder-team decided to formally implement BTO.  It all comes with business -- nothing stays the same forever... and it's the very reason we see dealers like Charlie Ro having their own line of USA Trains (G-Gauge), and now Charlie is carrying and advertising MTH's product line much more than they ever did prior to BTO.  Do ya really think this is all a coincidence???

MTH and Atlas-O have arguably always had a pseudo-BTO model, although MTH does seem to carry some warehouse inventory for certain products.  The common point though is both companies still employ dealer networks.  Sunset/GGD is different -- perhaps just a token handful of dealers if that -- and by and large consumers order direct from Scott.  So that's as pure-BTO as you can get -- aside from a dealer or somebody who might commit to "extra" units to push a specific roadname over the required-minimum-threshold for production go-ahead.

That's pretty much the modern-day landscape as I see it for O-Gauge these days.  The reality is we don't live in Kansas anymore, and the purest of BTO importers have earned our trust/respect with the confidence that we'll actually receive a product that is close -- if not identical -- to what was announced in a brochure... and within a reasonable amount of time.  Atlas-O has had their challenges when it comes to delivering product in a reasonable amount of time, but what they do deliver tends to be what they advertised in their catalogs.  MTH seems to be back in full swing with respect to ramping up production timeframes consistently AND delivering what they illustrate in catalogs.  Lionel, on the other hand, manages to deliver a ton of product in November/December each year  -- and perhaps has the largest discrepancy of "as built" product details vs. catalog product images.     As long as this continues, they will suffer pre-order credibility with all but their most ardent "Lionel can do no wrong" crowd.  And make no mistake about it, that's a sizable crowd which continues to give them a ton of undeserved leeway, IMHO -- especially when we considered they've quite subtly and successfully side-stepped the risk of high-end inventory management at their NC warehouse.

At the end of the day, we all make our own decisions of who we feel comfortable placing pre-orders with.  Scott Mann wins that contest hands-down, IMHO.  MTH dealers are next in line on my list, followed by Atlas-O dealers for rolling stock.  I have abandoned all hopes of pre-ordering Atlas-O locomotives going forward.  And lastly, my Lionel pre-orders are far and few between, because their dealer network STILL offers great sales a few months AFTER BTO-product delivery with better pricing than during the BTO pre-order period.    Crazy... but that's been my experience for the past few years.  So that's my story... and I'm sticking to it. 

David  

Looking forward to getting this and incorporating into Christmas layout update

Well put, Dave.

Like you said, we don't live in Kansas anymore, but I would add that change doesn't always equate to progress.

The notorious Lionel "Brass Hybrid" ATSF 2-8-2.

There is this other outstanding advance pre-order: Atlas ATSF A-B-B-A....the order card of which is sort of 'brown around the edges'....and I can't even remember whether it's an F3 or F7................but, who cares?...It's so olde that I doubt it'll ever show up.

Other than that?.....Mortality sez 'Enough!'

Newbie question; when I see the "BTO" on an engine I want from a dealer, does that mean the dealer orders from manufacture, who then takes a blank shell, paints it up, puts it on a chassis and ships it out to dealer-to me?  And, that process takes how long generally?  What is the deal on that?  TW

TedW posted:

Newbie question; when I see the "BTO" on an engine I want from a dealer, does that mean the dealer orders from manufacture, who then takes a blank shell, paints it up, puts it on a chassis and ships it out to dealer-to me?  And, that process takes how long generally?  What is the deal on that?  TW

The way the process normally works is that the manufacturer builds the total number of units ordered by the customer and builds that amount plus some extra to cover damage, etc.  In this day and age of reduced sales, there is a minimum number that varies by manufacturer that they need to run in order to break even on a project financially.  The final design and building process happens typically once the minimum orders have been fulfilled.  Time varies by manufacturer as well and is a function of how long it takes to generate the necessary orders to move a project forward.  It usually starts at a year, but in some cases has taken much longer.  On average for a "built to order" run 2 years is probably a good average.  All the units are built at the same time.

I take it from above not too many pre orders for the Ace 3000 in o gauge?

prrhorseshoecurve posted:

I take it from above not too many pre orders for the Ace 3000 in o gauge?

There is a lot of interest in it, but we aren't quite there with pre-orders.  I'm recalling something like another 50 to get it to move forward.  Most of the questions at York were if it would handle and O72 curve and the answer to that is yes.

GG1, thx for that. Seems to me "pre order" and "BTO" are relatively the same thing. I've been looking for a particular diesel and it's either BTO or sold out. Off the shelf selections seem pretty slim, e.g., items that are less desireable.  Thx again.

TedW posted:

GG1, thx for that. Seems to me "pre order" and "BTO" are relatively the same thing. I've been looking for a particular diesel and it's either BTO or sold out. Off the shelf selections seem pretty slim, e.g., items that are less desireable.  Thx again.

You are correct.  Pre-order and BTO are essentially the same.  When it is announced, if you do not place an order there is a likely chance it won't be available.  In full disclosure I work part time for 3rd Rail.  There are about 10% of customers that don't follow through on payment for their pre-orders as Scott Mann mentioned above.  Typically there are ready buyers for that inventory.  I can't speak for Lionel, Atlas, MTH or Bachmann, however the market has changed to the point where there will be less and less inventory items off the shelves.  That is simply reflective of the changing demographic of the railroading hobby market and the shift towards online sales.

From the perspective of a buyer who buys second hand this is bad news in that people are not purchasing these more expensive items indiscriminately and therefore when and if they show up in the secondary market they sell for near list price.  From a collector standpoint, the relative scarcity does help retain some value over the mass produced items of the past.

For me, the pre-order system is fine as long as you get the quality that is being represented at the time the product is announced.  It does allow for more unique trains to be built and there is more variety than ever in the model train market.   

My F40PH  was returned yesterday. Thanks to Charles Ro for outstanding warranty service! It came back with a very detailed description of problems found and how corrected. It now runs beautifully. And, the top hatch removes very easily.  I've sent them a note of thanks.

The only things I have left on pre-order from Lionel are the UP excursion cars and the UP theater car. Nobody else has made these in 3-rail O gauge so I'm kind of stuck with Lionel's offerings.

But I have definitely become very much more conservative about committing to purchase from either of the big manufacturers because of recent QC issues. It's been well over a year since I ordered any new engine. (Fortunately the last BTO engine I ordered - the Legacy FEF3 - had none of the issues affecting other recent BTO engines.)

The point's already been made earlier in this thread but I concur that the only O gauge importer with whom pre-ordering is safe is 3rd Rail. Scott stands behind his products, and I reckon most buyers of 3rd Rail products are people who know exactly what they want and what to expect from those products.

RICHIE C:

"Personally, I refuse to participate in the whole "BTO/PO" process. In fact, I find it distasteful.

We went for over 100 years without it and everything was relatively fine. "

A - yes, and with a lousy selection for most of that 100 years.

B - "distasteful"? Why on earth...?

C - BTO is the best way to do most manufacturing, when practical; it gets more people more of what they have requested with their hard cash - not just daydreaming, and it also reduces useless effort on the part of the seller. All manufacturing is BTO, actually - it's just not all so before-the-fact (precise), cause/effect as we see here. The rest is "built to what they ordered last time, so maybe?..."

D - no system is perfect, certainly not BTO choo-choos - but anything that makes the customer put his money where his mouth is, thereby "forcing" (through rising expectations) the seller to offer what we really want, is a good thing.

E - BTO does tend, though, to stifle the off-the-wall, gut-feeling success (and failure) that sellers have offered from time to time. I'll take it over the one-millionth re-issue of a Santa Fe F-3 (snore) anytime.

Oh - I pre-ordered the Lionel Pre-War inspired S2 freight set from Legacy Station. My first "new catalogue" order in years. So there.

No. Never again will I buy something sight unseen especially at these prices.

Last time I preordered something it was 2 Railking ES44s, after moving the expected ship date 8 times, I cancelled my order and bought a Challenger that was in stock 

3rd Rail Amfleet cars

TCA convention car - standard gauge Heinz Pickles covered gondola.

rrvics posted:

Nothing

Yeah.  I ordered two of those.

I preordered all of the Legacy SD60's in the latest Lionel catalog, The 5 Star General Set, The Green Alco Lionel Lines Passenger set, and 2 6 packs of the mechanical reefers for the salad bowl express.