What will happen to MTH’s tinplate line?

Most of this discussion centers around the manufacture of tinplate locomotives, and the considerable expense.

But what about just ordinary rolling stock?   Extremely few parts  Could be turned out on extremely low-tech equipment.  I can't imagine that they could not be manufactured for super cheap in China or another Asian country.  Perhaps even Mexico.

Maybe somebody will just pick up the machinery and parts for the rolling stock alone, and focus on that?

Mannyrock

@totrainyard posted:

3rd Rail/Sunset Trains should buy the tinplate line.

Then make everything in Brass not Tin Steel.

I would love to have a Ives All Brass passenger set a a fair price.

They should also buy all the Steam Engine molds since they also have a factory in China or could use the MTH factory like Atlas.

"Brass" would be great!  In fact, "RichArt" used "brass" to cast many of its locomotives as evident in the photo below from Dick Mayer's workshop. 

Bob Nelson

@jhz563 posted:

Anecdotal for me, but grounded in reality.   I heard it reported that Mike Wolf himself stated that they just didn't sell enough to justify keep making them in conventional, and the lack of the option in the later catalogs backs that up.  But no, I am not privy sales numbers.

Thank you for that.

"Heard it reported that Mike . . . stated . . . ," however, is hardly reliable evidence, at least THREE removes from something solid, i.e. "grounded in reality."

Catalog listings could be more substantive, but they could also reflect other variables, such as size of production runs, material acquisition problems, or relative profitability (which does not equal sales).

In other words, though you might be accurately reading the evidence, you might also be engaging in confirmation bias.  None of us has the hard evidence in the form of numbers and production history.

The question is moot, really.  MTH isn't going to be making any more.  I sincerely hope somebody does, including making conventional motors, in order to perpetuate the supply chain necessary for repair and restoration of the originals when necessary.

Recent trends in eBay sales seems to suggest that modern SG tinplate is available and spendy.  I see a bunch of relistings for both originals and new productions for prices higher than last year's, relisted because they aren't selling.  I rather suspect that a bunch of frustrated show dealers are trying to sell in this format because so many shows were cancelled.  As is not unusual for show dealers, they seem to be charging more than the market will bear at the moment.  

@jhz563 posted:

I actually traded with e-mail with Mr. Mann last month about whether or not he had considered doing a tinplate locomotive.  He replied "Not our cup of tea. Everytime I try to do something that isn't scale, it falls on deaf ears."

Very interesting.  I wonder whose ears?  That is, to what audience is he making the pitch?

That it is not his cup of tea is certainly reasonable.  Just because both tinplate and his products are toy trains doesn't mean that the markets and their expectations are the same.

The improved Type 3 BAL open frame motor used for example in Tinplate Traditions 408E's has extra laminations in both the field stator and the armature over the original improved Type 3 BAL's. These are very powerful and dependable motors requiring minimum maintenance. Brushes are readily available and mechanical e-unit parts and tools are also easily procured. The same cannot be said for future acquisition of DCS boards. Also, there have been occasional reports of gear meshing issues with Proto locos. Hence, my preference for conventional propulsion.

@palallin posted:

Thank you for that.

"Heard it reported that Mike . . . stated . . . ," however, is hardly reliable evidence, at least THREE removes from something solid, i.e. "grounded in reality."

Catalog listings could be more substantive, but they could also reflect other variables, such as size of production runs, material acquisition problems, or relative profitability (which does not equal sales).

In other words, though you might be accurately reading the evidence, you might also be engaging in confirmation bias.  None of us has the hard evidence in the form of numbers and production history.

The question is moot, really.  MTH isn't going to be making any more.  I sincerely hope somebody does, including making conventional motors, in order to perpetuate the supply chain necessary for repair and restoration of the originals when necessary.

I asked both Mike and Andy Edelman about making traditional bild a loco motors - they both said the same thing: over 90% of their standard gauge sales in recent years have been with the can motor type drive and all the sounds/smoke etc. The Chinese require a minimum order of 10,000 motors in order to make them again - this info right from these guys.  Sorry.

I bought most of what MTH had in inventory in order to keep making the big Challenger locos. Any of my future locos will include drives of my own design with powerful can motors and heavy industrial gearing. MTH has run out of many of the parts that I use for these engines (steam chests/pilot castings, 400E lead trucks and the like. So will be scrounging going forward.

Jim

@Mannyrock posted:

Most of this discussion centers around the manufacture of tinplate locomotives, and the considerable expense.

But what about just ordinary rolling stock?   Extremely few parts  Could be turned out on extremely low-tech equipment.  I can't imagine that they could not be manufactured for super cheap in China or another Asian country.  Perhaps even Mexico.

Maybe somebody will just pick up the machinery and parts for the rolling stock alone, and focus on that?

Mannyrock

Dave Carse was making the simple Classic Model Trains freight and passenger cars recently, might have taken a hiatus to build a layout and write a book. They were very nice and very affordable, all parts made locally.  I looked into making more substantial cars from aluminum castings, a whole different animal, couple of hundred $ just in parts before they are finished, assembled and painted.

Right now, getting tinplate wheels is a concern. Sources may become available again (Joe Mania for example and Harry Henning) but right now supply is very limited.

@palallin posted:

Recent trends in eBay sales seems to suggest that modern SG tinplate is available and spendy.  I see a bunch of relistings for both originals and new productions for prices higher than last year's, relisted because they aren't selling.  I rather suspect that a bunch of frustrated show dealers are trying to sell in this format because so many shows were cancelled.  As is not unusual for show dealers, they seem to be charging more than the market will bear at the moment.  

Adding on I have seen many of the prototype, show pieces and those special paint editions that MTH recently sold off through Cabin Fever Auctions MTH sales being resold on eBay. Some were quite pricey and some .......well they are all pricey.

Much earlier in this thread I posted this. (Edited for clarity and accuracy)

@Jim Waterman posted:

I asked both Mike and Andy Edelman about making traditional bild a loco motors - they both said the same thing: over 90% of their standard gauge sales in recent years have been with the can motor type drive and all the sounds/smoke etc. The Chinese require a minimum order of 10,000 motors in order to make them again - this info right from these guys.  Sorry.

Sorry for what?  This info at least stands a remove or two closer to something solid.  And another reason why I go for the originals.

As for the Chinese, . . .  well, they do not encompass the entire manufacturing capability of the planet despite the myopia of most businesses these days.

It is true that the demand for conventional motors is limited primarily to the "geezer" generation. If a can motor could be adapted to the same gear train as the open frame motors, and an electronic e-unit be used in place of a mechanical one without the command or sounds, that would be preferable.

The pulling power of the can motor(s) and the maintenance free electronic reverse units would suffice for many of us who desire conventional power.

I like the loud sound of the metal in action. I run my modern in conventional as I run my pre-war pieces. Some run a little better than others. Ha. Prewar engines and modern cars run best for me. But I do have one very new 392e orange and blue model that runs way better than the rest of modern tin, larger and smaller and even keeps up with the prewar favorites. The modern cars ride best though for me. I’m hoping this MTH stuff all plays out well.

The gear meshing issue with the Proto Drive motors requires serious disassembly to replace the stripped gear plus a better quality replacement.

Mike told me the tinplate was not for sale and he intended to offer tinplate in the future.
That being said there were big delays getting the last catalog items manufactured due to the limited number of orders. The Chinese manufacturers wanted a larger number of orders before they would consider making the product.

Scott Smith

"I asked both Mike and Andy Edelman about making traditional bild a loco motors - they both said the same thing: over 90% of their standard gauge sales in recent years have been with the can motor type drive and all the sounds/smoke etc. The Chinese require a minimum order of 10,000 motors in order to make them again - this info right from these guys.  Sorry."

A few yrs ago I bought a SG Williams TCA 25th Anniversary set. It still had the "dummy" trucks in the 408e loco. I found the can motor kit that was sold for it, but ultimately ended up installing 2 brand new MTH BAL motors. I'm glad I bought them when I did! I love the modern electronics and can motors in modern trains, but when it comes to tinplate, I prefer the growl of the old AC motors.

Do you think the MTH tinplate will become a collectable item??

A few yrs ago I bought a SG Williams TCA 25th Anniversary set. It still had the "dummy" trucks in the 408e loco. I found the can motor kit that was sold for it, but ultimately ended up installing 2 brand new MTH BAL motors. I'm glad I bought them when I did! I love the modern electronics and can motors in modern trains, but when it comes to tinplate, I prefer the growl of the old AC motors.

So you looking for the "growl" of the AC motors. Is it just the sound you want or do you prefer how the old AC motors operate with the hesitation and lack of cruise control?
     Andy Edleman and I talked about this a few years ago. I said people want traditional sounds in their tinplate,  "just give it to them". Make sound files that sound like the old AC motors. Would that work as a compromise for those wanting that option?

Scott Smith

@Enon49 posted:

Do you think the MTH tinplate will become a collectable item??

Look at EBay they are already getting collectable pricing.

Scott Smith

@scott.smith posted:

So you looking for the "growl" of the AC motors. Is it just the sound you want or do you prefer how the old AC motors operate with the hesitation and lack of cruise control?
     Andy Edleman and I talked about this a few years ago. I said people want traditional sounds in their tinplate,  "just give it to them". Make sound files that sound like the old AC motors. Would that work as a compromise for those wanting that option?

Scott Smith

I guess it might. I've wondered if it's possible to get the sound of the old Lionel air whistle into the PS2/PS3 system.

@BlueComet400 posted:

I guess it might. I've wondered if it's possible to get the sound of the old Lionel air whistle into the PS2/PS3 system.

There would be no problem doing an air whistle.

Andy's reaction when we talked about..."you know we could do that". I replied saying " I know you can".

Let's see if it ever happens. Andy only being a part time who knows if he will relay this or even be involved when tinplate gets offered once again.
Scott Smith

@scott.smith posted:

There would be no problem doing an air whistle.

Andy's reaction when we talked about..."you know we could do that". I replied saying " I know you can".

Let's see if it ever happens. Andy only being a part time who knows if he will relay this or even be involved when tinplate gets offered once again.
Scott Smith

Well, let's be a bit careful. One could easily provide for an electronic approximation of an air whistle through a small speaker, but it would not come terribly close to sounding as real air whistles do. If one wishes to reproduce the prewar tinplate 'feel' and sounds, modern electronics are an aesthetic disconnection  from and a barrier to experiencing the original authentic experience.

Respectfully,

Bob

I guess tinplate will be on hold until a manufacturer comes up with a much more realistic number of minimum motor orders that MTH can cope with.   It's very unfortunate,

That's why a great start-up company here would be the ticket/answer to MTH who needs a much smaller batch size.

I know this is a very old thread but since the reintroduction of the tinplate monorail are we looking at a possible return of the tinplate trains. I hope so. You see my wife bought me a MTH train set for Christmas in 2007 and every Christmas since I have been putting it up. Well I never really added much to the set because I couldn’t figure out what I had.was is o gauge or standard gauge? All the hobby shops in my area quit selling trains and I couldn’t find anything that looked like my train. So time flew past and the kids grew out of playing with it so a couple of Christmases passed and the train stayed in the closet. Well the sight of  no toys longer under the tree has prompted me to seek adding to the train so I started looking and researching thats when I realized my train was a remake of the prewar 260e. I can admire others but I have love for only one. I do not like speculators or pickers, I found this hobby by a fondness of the hobby and that lead me to this forum and the warm welcoming of fellow hobbyist.  I will not pay heartless souls who pray on the passion of others for mere profit. Those that peddle broken for good or misrepresentation of actual authenticity. (Untested, appears to be correct, sold as found, rare, collectors item, hard to find, limited, fuzzy pictures, pictures of poor angles, appears to be period correct except for the MTH frame.)
I love Tin my first love and I wish for more. I believe the finest expression of a toy train is the shiny metal type. I would take any metal Car over the newest corvette any day.

I cannot wait until the day that I can have new tin in the colors I want with the features I want.

I am not  a plastic guy. When I was a boy I build balsa wood airplanes and flew them.

good night all I’m off to bed and dream that Tinplate is on its way back.

The monorail was never my thing but a pleasant surprise to be sure.

I would love to see tinplate start making a come back likely with individual freight cars in mono-chromatic colors schemes with brass or "nickel" trim. I was severely disappointed when the three separate sale 2816 hoppers from the last catalog never happened.  Then again, as long as I am dreaming how about a pacific or hudson wheel arrangement with a squared off tender?  How nice to have a refreshing dream!!!

I would love the Beer boxcars. I would like domestic and import. I would die for a Christmas M&M series of 2800 box cars, a frosty the snowman refer car, hot coco tanker car, and a Golden Crome 260e with Green Crome accents and candy apple wheel spokes,. If we’re dreaming.