O Scale is a great scale. I think it offers many advantages over the other smaller scales. But it isn't just the advantage over the smaller scales. 1:32 and 1:20.3 are nice. (I've dabbled in them myself.) But they suffer from being just a little too big to be practicle for building an operational layout.

 

So, in many respects, O remains the "king of Scales" by virtue of the right combination of size, heft and ability to detail and work on the stuff. Yet, it's still managable to build a decent layout in the space that many people have available.

 

Now for the sad fact: HO cleans O's clock when it comes to the great variety of train things that are available (and I truly believe that O does OK in that department). That variety attracts many, many people. If one wants to build a decent sized layout, it also hurts that O takes up 4x the square footage and 8x the volume from the rails and above.

 

However, I don't think that will ever change. HO has a great deal to offer, and at prices that are "pound for pound" less than O. This debate has been around since the 1950's at least. O Scale attracts a different person: typically he is probably older; has used HO and has gotten tired of breaking inumberable tiny drill bits trying to install hair sized grab irons; probably has a little more money for his hobby; likes the fact that he can see the details without using the magnifier and; realizes that size does matter.

 

I don't think that O Scale will ever replace HO as the dominant scale. The cost/size ratio just doesn't work in its favor. However, I do think that we have a great deal to be thankful for with the products we have available. A brass importer once said to me that he thought that there were perhaps 6,000 active O Scalers (he excluded 3-Rail) and that maybe one-third of those were actually buying lots of stuff. I don't know if he was right on his numbers, but I still think his point is valid. We are a minority scale, probably always will be and have to accept the fact that we have much nicer stuff than everybody else - at least if you define it by detailed stuff that can be picked up with one hand.

 

Try picking up an Accucraft K-37 with one hand - and I'm not even talking about the tender. It just isn't going to happen. 

Well for me '0' is the "King of Scales" but thats my opinion! As fare as a track standard is concerned , we have one the NMRA provides it and there's no reason why 2 rail and 3 rail scale shouldn't run to that standard, they did in the past. As for scale verses track we should have stayed with 17\64 scale or( 6.75mm its easer to work with),no need to pull up your track and start again.The size is slightly bigger,and I like that, but its not a lot. Imagine this you just bought a Sunset steamer (6.75mm) the gauge is correct,with NMRA standard wheels, it can run DC, DCS and DCC your two rail so you remove the rollers, but you have some tight curves but you still wont that big steamer, so you remove the flanges on the centre drivers, carefully with a fill,and your ready to go!!

 

(cTr...Choose the Right)      Stephen from down under

Stephen: I see your point! O scale is not the king of scale. It is the "King of

Compromises"! and your statement just proves there is no Standards!

nw2124  "Progress - either you are for it, or get out the way!"... SLR

One of the real problems as I see it is TOY trains verses Model Trains. In HO the standard for Toy Trains is the same as the standard for Model Trains. The same could be true for "O" if it let go of its past,but a lot of people still think you have to have deep flanges  to run tight curves.The expenses for tooling in"O" would drop dramatically if there was just one standard,and the availability would increase, but customers have to demand it, and that means educating the coming generation of "O" scalers and TOY trainers alike.

 

(cTr...Choose the Right)    Stephen from Down Under

I have enjoyed all scales including 1 gauge and live steam over the years.

 

O scale right now is simply a blast! Yes I know Ho is this and that etc... Even so, I am moving forward regardless in O.

 

But King of Scales? That has to stay with one gauge. Some of their locomotives are truly... huge.

O Scale 2rail is the king of scales to me, and I wouldn't care if I was the only one in it frankly. In fact the difficulties are part of the allure for me. I learn and I build things, make them work, create solutions, develope techniques... a well stocked ready to run scale is fine for those without imagination who need to be helped with everything, but it's no king to me.

 

 

Sorry Lee, But if your only criteria for "King of Scales" is size, then 7.5" gauge has Gauge 1 beat hands down, no comparison, heck you can even ride on them.

 

Of course the Grand Scales(G12,G14, G16) beat 7.5" gauge.

 

You can play that game all the way up to Rich playing with th 12 inch to the foot scale 765.

 

 You might argue that 7.5" gauge and the grand scales are too large to be modeled indoors, there are those that would say that Gauge 1 is too large to have a "real Layout" indoors as well. Some think O Gauge is also too large to do "Properly" The N and Z scalers obviously think that HO is too large for what they want to accomplish.

 

I'm 46,  and have had model/toy trains as long as I can remember, and remember "O" being called the "King of Scales" as long as I can remember.

 

In my time with trains I have had Gauge 1, HO, N, O and S, at one time or another, and have a at least a little of each except S right now.

 

O, is still the King of Scales to ME,

 

Doug

O scale has come a long way over the last 20 years or so but it is still only a fraction of the HO & N scale markets. We have much nicer and more prototypical engines and rolling stock available to us now than ever before.

 

The advent of computerized command control has also opened up the O scale hobby to a new group of hobbyists. That being said, it is still a relatively small niche market.

Would the hobby grow even more if we were able to standardize all of the things mentioned in opening post? Perhaps, but let us not forget that O scale is still relatively expensive and takes up quite a bit more space than the other scales.

 

O scale will still be the King of Scales to O scale enthusiasts but will probably never match the popularity of HO. And that's alright with with me. I can enjoy my O scale trains and the HO & N scale guys can enjoy theirs!

 

Steve Tapper

O scale was "The King of Scales" back in the day because you probably had to be royalty to afford it!

 

Rusty

O scale has a presence that HO just doesn’t have.  What got me was seeing some modules at a show that were done in scale with weathered buildings and rolling stock (like the Merchant Row System). I couldn’t take my eyes off it….it was beautiful and the size made HO seem so small. I couldn’t go back….

The biggest threat to our scale is price…..$70 freight cars and $500 engines will ensure this remains a niche market. Plus the lack of buildings and other railroad structures as most folks can’t scratch build or don’t want to pay $50 for a 3x4 inch house from one of these laser kit makers.

Considering number 3 above, sounds to me like you're not really interested in "O" scale. O scale is 1 1/4", you can't change that without if being something else. If you change the gauge, "O" scale as we know it is going away. If you have to correct things, better to go 17/64, but best to leave it alone, I think.

 

As for all of this "standardization" you suggest, I prefer CHOICE.

 

Simon

I think Lionel and MTH could do a much better job of marketing the scale to mainstream families...     They need to think outside the hobby shop and market to mothers----who will see toy trains as a welcome change from computer games, tv etc and welcome a creative outlet a la Lego's.  

Lego's has done a marvelous job instilling interest in young kids and has a strong business; where are the Lionel ads with a family that we all saw in the 1950's onward---look at the old catalogs...

 

Mr. Calabrese, earn your keep and grow your market!    I have had to work on this in our business and its hard work, but one that grows your brand, awareness and market size.

 

..just my $.25

The reason for the superiority of HO is that :

1. Space

2. cost

3. adherence to scale

4. availability of equipment

 

For O to become the "King of Scales" again only 2 of the 4 can be addressed:

3. adherence to scale - means that the 1 1/4 has to change to P48

4. for availability of equipment to increase - demand needs to increase which means that the hobby needs to grow.  The old geezers in OW5 1 1/4 "O Scale" are not going to change.  The growth of "O scale" to true O Scale will have to come from the "youngsters" and as the "youngsters" demand more adherence to scale P48 will begin to grow.

 

Larry

I agree with you Simon, O Scale is 1/48 scale with 1 1/4 inches  between the rails.  P48 is modeling trains in 1/48. 

 

All this talk is crazy talk anyway.  As two rail guys we will always get hand-me-downs from the three rail crowd.  If you make the choice to move your wheels in a little bit to make them a scale 4'81/2" then guess what you are still getting hand-me-downs from the three rail guys.  And I for one am HAPPY the get them, its also a good thing they are demanding more scale models.  Its good for everyone lets all enjoy it.

Because of space and cost, I doubt O scale will be the "King" with respect to percentage of the market (although it is growing.)

 

That said, though, O scale (in all its sacred forms) has always been King. When The King walks into the room, everyone stops and looks. There is a "presence" that King O has that none of the smaller scales/gauges have. This presence is that of size, sound and naked-eye visibility that doesn't really exist in smaller scales. Our club is 3RS for the most part, though some of us run 2-rail rolling stock and others run "semi-scale," but the massive scenery and size of the equipment make a big impression when people walk into the building. Many people say that smaller scales are "cute."

 

All that was summed up perfectly by a five-year-old visitor to one the joint open houses we hold with Belmont Shores N Scale club (our neighbor in the park.) His father was interested in model railroading and visited the N Scale club. The boy and his mother came to ours. The kid took his mother over to Belmont to get his father to bring him over to our building. He said "See Dad. These are better trains."

 

"It's good to be The King" (Mel Brooks, "History of the World, Part 1")

1. We already have a standardized control system. It's called DC and every loco I have ever purchased (build dates from late 1960s-2012) will run on my layout straight out of the box.

2. Tell the 3rail guys to drop the center rail. Let me know how this goes.

3. 1.25 between the rails has been the standard since... forever. P-48 guys just follow a different standard.

4. Some guys like scale, some guys don't. what are ya gonna do?

5. Start up a company and sell parts and buildings and whatever else. If you feel as though all of the current suppliers/manufacturers are dropping the ball, then this should be an extremely easy market for you to get into. If your products are worth the money I'll buy. Just remember, builders are the minority. Most of the 3-rail guys want rtr buildings and don't care about detail parts so the market is very, very small.

6. See #5

7. see #6

"See Dad. These are better trains."

I really like that line.  Thanks AGHRMATT.

Regards,

Ed

 

1) Even DCC is only HALF standardized, any standard decoder equipped loco will run on any DCC system. If you have an NCE system and visit a Digitrax layout you LOCO will run, but don't bother taking your CONTROLLER, they are not intercompatible.

 

2) at least in 3 rail the gauge is the same, so any train will run on any track system. I don't see the MFGRs giving up their proprietary systems, so you generally pick your track system and stick with it. This is true in other scales as well, it is not just an "O" gauge issue.

 

3) The gauge (width between the rails) IS standardized already at 1 1/4" at least in 3 rail, is 2 rail different, other than P48?

 

4) No need to change this issue at all. The more choices that are available, the more people that you can interest in the scale, simply buy what fits your modeling needs. The more that the MFGRs can sell, the healthier the hobby can be.

 

5,6 &7) No argument, all would be nice improvements to see.

 

I don't see that much non-standardization where it really counts. Track Gauge is standardized. Couplers, 3 rail has been standardized on the much maligned "Claw" since the late 40's, 2 rail seems to be settled on Kadee's. Power, almost all 3 rail will run on AC, plus many have additional, but restrictive proprietary Command systems, 2 rail is predominately DC, with some having some Command options as well.

 

 

COST:

 

"O" is more expensive on a per piece basis than the smaller scales, but that gap seems to be narrowing.

 

 Relative cost is a different story, that is often missed altogether. If building a layout to fit the space available, which is probably 95+% of us. In the smaller scales, you will typically need more locomotives, rolling stock, track and switches, buildings and other scenery items. While these items are cheaper on a per piece basis, the volume needed starts adding up very quickly.

 

 If building a particular TRACK PLAN with the same structures and scenic features, with the space available to build in whatever scale appeals to you(not many of us have this option) then the smaller scales will likely be less expensive to build in.

 

 Given the same space to build in, while the track plan and other features of a layout, will likely make for very different layouts, in different scales, the cost is often not as great of a  difference as many would expect.

 

Doug

That's why S Scale is Superior!

 

Rusty

" nw2124  "Progress - either you are for it, or get out the way!"... SLR "

 

I take it  from  your  statement that  you,also, are  working  with  self contained  R/C.  I would consider that  progress in our modeling efforts.

 

Ed Reutling

What difference does it make?  It's a hobby, not a competition.

 

Any scale is "King" as long as the individual involved with that scale is having a good time and not worrying about what someone else is doing or enjoying.

 

The O gauge hobby is at its peak.  Relax and enjoy it while you can.

Alan, well said.

Amen Allen – it has never been better than the present for O scalers.  With 60+ years of beautiful models constantly turning over in an active used  market, if you are patient you'll find what you’ll need to build a railroad that will knock the socks off the members of the majority scales.  Scale the dream to your space, time, and budget and you'll have a rewarding hobby for a lifetime.

 

Long Live the King of Scales!!

 

Ed Rappe

Well said flanger.   

This is what got me to go 2rail instead of 3. I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

Ralph

I am the King and O is my Kingdom.  Every other scale to me is for peasants except for G, they are for giants.  

We all can be king in our own little O world, but the fact remains that O Scale is no longer king of scales and no longer rules in the kingdom of modeling. It does not have the level of benifits that other scales have progressed. Face it people, O Scale  has progressed but not to the point that it is king of scales anymore. It has not kept up with the times and advances or grown. I blieve that it could do so much better! It is obvious that it is the mentality and additudes that holds it back. THIS IS WHY WE DO NOT HAVE NEW PEOPLE COMING INTO O SCALE!  O Scale will grow when it becomes easier for the young people to come into the scale! ! !  How many of you are working toward that goal? How many 2-rail train sets do you see in the train shops? I rest my case.  Yes there are a few, but too few that are recuiting new people. It is the additude of those that are content with their own little kingdom that holds back a great empire. No this is not a competion of scale. It is about the survival of  a scale with many dying off with few replacements. Look at all the auctions (our city has one train auction every two weeks for the last three years now.) If it was growing mth would not have the need to get into the HO or European sector of the market.  Yes, O scale is better than it has ever been, but is it better enough to get new people and grow to keep it a viable scale? Maybe some one should go to Burger King and hand out some of those crowns for those that still think O is still king.

nw2124  "Progress - either you are for it, or get out the way!"... SLR

To nw2124... I do believe you've heard a very consistent responce to your opinion.

 

People here love their O scale passion and are completely happy with the time they spend on it.

 

The future of it will be there in some form and it's patrons will make the most of it...we O scalers are very resourceful, and can adapt readily.

 

As Allan noted there is no competition. Go work on your railroad. Be happy!

It seems to be a personal mindset as to weather O is king. I have been a HO and N scale modeler most of my life. I really didn't want O/Lionel due to the fact that they were "toyish" models. I am currently building a O scale layout due to the fact that MTH and LIONEL as well as others have made some great scale and semi-scale models that are beautiful and run really great. Command control weather DCS or TMCC/Legacy is a vast improvment over the standard transformer. Granted there are those that prefer the conventional style of running, to them I say enjoy! This is a hobby that one is supposed to relax with and possibly bond with your family by everyone helping build/run a layout. The thing that may cause some to shy away from O is the cost . Granted ALL gauges have had a large increase in overeall cost for models. I don't know what caused such a drastic jump in price since most models are produced in CHINA rather than here in the states. It's cheaper to make things in China or Korea or wherever, so I hear. If this is so, do the current retail prices reflect a substantional savings over what the cost would be to produce the same item in the US? It's a real shame that we were the greatist producer of goods and now we are the greatist importer of goods. I'll get down off this soap box now. Just my $.02 worth. Just have fun with it. Life is too short to bicker over simple matters.

Thanks

Frank 

Gee, this sound like the same arguments I hear about S Scale...

 

Back in the early days (50's 60's) most folks got their start with either Lionel or American Flyer and maybe even HO in some cases.  That's where the sets were, available at hobby shops, toy stores, also seasonally at department stores, even radio-TV shops, appliance and furniture stores.  You don't get that kind of coverage nowadays.

 

Not everybody who got a train set as a kid entered the world of model railroading, even back then.  For many it was a "holiday thing" that they eventually outgrew. 

 

Of those that retained an interest in model railroading, many migrated to HO as Lionel and Flyer faltered.  As time wore on, some stayed in HO, went to N, rediscovered Lionel, discovered O Scale or even S Scale.

 

As far as MTH having "the need to get into the HO or European sector of the market." I don't believe this to be an accurate statement.  I believe MTH saw a business opportunity in HO and the Euro O markets and took the risk and it's working.  Every attempt that Lionel has tried to get into HO over the past couple of decades has failed miserably. 

 

I'm actually surprised that MTH is doing well in HO, maybe that's why I don't manufacture trains...

 

O Scale, like S Scale, is an "acquired taste."  It's not for everybody and probably never will be.  Yet, it's out there for those who are interested and search.

 

Could more be done to increase O Scale's visibility to the general consumer?  Most likely...   Atlas tried in the 1980's with a small selection of reasonably priced ready to run O Scale but failed for what could be a number of reasons.  It seemed like a good idea at the time, but apparently, it wasn't.  Likewise with Rivarrossi O Scale.

 

I certainly don't have an answer to the problem of increasing the O Scale market, but I wouldn't write it off, either.

 

Rusty

Great post Rusty. As far a mikey getting into HO and European markets was because O sales were dropping(from mth staff.)

NW2124 made an interesting reference to starter sets. That is a problem, even for the 3-rail side of O. A bad starter set will result in a disillusioned youngster. This is why we NEVER refer visitors to a Toys R Us or other toy store to look at starter sets. We explain the differences in starter sets and the costs and refer them to the local train stores to get started.

 

Atlas/Roco had starter sets that, while 2-rail and scale proportioned, were not well constructed. I'd like to see quality, scale-proportioned starter sets that are constructed along the lines of the MTH starter sets. To work successfully, the equipment would have to do the following:

• The equipment would have to negotiate sharp-radius curves (18" radius/O-36.) This would require swinging pilots and articulated couplers on locomotives and wider swing on rolling stock. The rolling stock would be limited to 40-foot cars. Also, (and I know some of you guys will hate hearing this) the "old school" code 172 wheel tread/flange configuration would need to be used to allow for inconsistent track work.
• The locomotives would need to be easily switchable to fixed pilots as the end-user moves from the "toy" phase to the "modeling" phase.
• The locomotives need to be socketed for DCC. MTH starter sets, while more expensive, include Proto-2/DCS and will operate in full command control. Time will tell if Proto-3/DCC makes it into the starter sets, but my suspicion is that it will make it into the starter sets as the Proto-2 hardware inventories are exhausted.

• I like Kadees, but I don't know if they're well suited for the rigors of the "toy" phase. I don't know how this should be addressed.

Those are my thoughts on starter sets. BTW, we just had a family join up (the 9-year old is the train nut) and the kid runs DCS at the club and conventional at home.

Remember that old saying, "Different strokes for different folks."? Well that's the same thing with O scale trains. The people who enjoy O scale model railroading have found their comfort zone and will continue to support the hobby.

 

The world is full of diversity these days and that goes for our hobbies as well. There really isn't any competition amongst the various scales in model railroading but rather whatever you find personally comfortable and rewarding and that is a personal decision.

 

Steve Tapper

Scales do not compete against each other! They just need to grow to stay viable. O is not king of scales by definition of "king" -- that is one who is supreme or highly successful in the same field or preeminent in a particular group. O has lost its place as being king.  There is no aurgument there, it is a fact. But my point is, King or not can we make it better! Can we find a way to provide easier access to young people instead sitting on our laurels in "our own little comfort Zones?" . Maybe some of you are too comfortable where you sit that all you care about is your own little world. Yes this is a hobby and yes it is for enjoyment and relaxation and is to be fun. But are we selfish enough that we don't want others to share our fun. ( YES YOU CAN SHARE MY fUN IF AND ONLY IF YOU DON'T LOOK FOR WAYS TO MAKE IT BETTER!" - attitude).  I don't know if some of you are aware but Edison discovered electricity and Al Gore invented the computer. Yet why would we let these great advancements go to waste! AGHRMatt seems to be the opened minded enough that he knows we need to do something to expand the O scale hobby  with Train sets to make it easier to get people in the hobby. It needs all of us working together and not to just sit in our "comfort zones", "I can scatch build that and screw the ones who can't", "We don't need no stinkin internet, heck we don't need no stinkin electricity and heck we can even make our own paper," I got all I want and forget those that don't", and finially "heaven forbidden a newbie who is younger makes a suggestion, why throw the bum under a train for trying to open our eyes to help our scale which needs to include new people to grow". I have seen a younger O scaler jump ship because of these attitudes. (Maybe O scale needs an Attitude Ajustment before we can get standards--opinion),  The point of this thread is what would it take to make it better and easier for new people to enter O Scale and be user friendly? Better Standards? Service providers to get up with the times and use the internet? Think people -- we have AnDroid, Blackberry, IPad I, II, III, Wi FI, IPod, MG4, Twitter, Facebook, IPhone, GPS, laptops, etc. These are the sign of the times. O scale needs to get with the times and forget the stone age.(opinion)

 

 

It is true "one cannot motivate those whom do not want to be motivated!

 

nw2124 "Progress - either you are for it, or get out the way!"... SLR

We also have dictionary.com. Please use it. You have misspelled attitude with "additude" about 20 times in this thread alone.

Thanks, It the drugs! Tom: you have a typo. It was 3 times not 20 times.

nw2124  "Progress - either you are for it, or get out the way!"... SLR

nw2124,

You seem to be very emotional over the state of O Gauge Model Railroading. You obviously took offense at my use of the term "comfort zone" to describe most of the people I know in this hobby.

Just because a person feels comfortable with his or her chosen hobby, vocation, religion, etc. doesn't necessarily mean that they don't care about anything else.

The majority of the people who regularly frequent this forum have become very emotionally involved with the perceived lack of growth of the O scale hobby over the past 10 years or so. This is not a new discussion to us. We have been pondering this for many years.

I belong to two active O scale model train clubs and we all share the same worries about the future of this hobby. Most if not all of us are members of the TCA and we are concerned about the mean age of it's members and speculate on how we can introduce younger people into the organization. Many of us are Grand Parents or have friends with grandchildren who we actively encourage to come see and play with our train layout. My wife has brought a number of her coworkers and their grandchildren over to our house on numerous occasions to see and run the trains.

The truth is every hobby be it model trains, collector cars, or even organizations are always striving to gain a younger membership base. It's the Holy Grail of survival!

You seem to be a new member to this forum and we welcome your input and your enthusiasm. You've made a lot of good points in your post especially about the rapidly changing face of technology and the challenges it presents to the manufacturers of O scale hobby equipment and supplies. I've been an active member of this forum for over ten years.

You'll find the vast majority of people who are active in this hobby as true Ambassadors of the hobby even if they find themselves in a comfort zone with O scale model railroading. You'll also find them constantly promoting the hobby and not sitting on their laurels. The fellows I know in the hobby are always looking to make improvements to their layouts and help out "newbies" to give them a helping hand.

I get calls rather frequently from people who have heard or read about my layout which was actually featured in OGR Run #247 January 2011 and gladly invite them over to see the layout and run trains.

I had a gentleman come over last week and spend two hours running trains. I spoke with another gentleman and his son yesterday, who I had met at the New Jersey Hirailers Open House in January, who wants to stop by sometime this coming week to see the layout.

The point I'm trying to make is that it is easy to make wild accusations when you take statements out of context without knowing the facts. Don't let your emotions get the better of you because we're all in this hobby together!

Steve: Thanks for a great reponse! One of the better more open responses on this forum.(Except the one where the gentlemen stated "O scalers was like herding cats" which I laughed very hard when I read it and now I see how true it is!). So many O scalers seem to put down us younger scalers who are upbeat about the the potential O scale has if we all work to gether. Yes I am passionate of my hobby, and listening to some it is like having a negative employee who has no vision for the growth of the company. 

Thanks,

nw2124  "Progress - either you are for it, or get out the way!"... SLR

Do you really believe that anyone is putting you down for being enthusiastic? If anything I think the guys on this forum are very upbeat about most everything. And your analogy of a negative employee in the company works if you were the owner of the company, but you are not. You are the new guy that just started last week. And reading some of your posts, a more accurate analogy of the situation would be to say that you are like an employee that hires on to a company and during the first week walks into the lunchroom and yells "This company sucks and so does all it's employees. You are all technologically irrelevant and inferior to your competition. But if you stupid, stupid people want it better, just follow me."

 

Then, from what I have seen in your posts, when people don't agree with you, you resort to name calling. If suppliers don't do business the way you want, you resort to sarcasm and negative comments regarding their age. If anything, I would say the guys on this board have been very gracious in response to your rude, pushy and insulting posts.

 

I have no idea how old you are and I doubt you will tell me. I'm 36 and have been in this hobby since before I can remember. I have a large collection (IMO) of locos and equipment and they all have sentimental value. Most of the guys on this board can probably say the same thing. Of coarse,  I'm not done buying so I still want to see quality items for sale, and they seem to be getting better, but I don't ever want to get rid of most of my collection.

 

I have no problem with progress, but why would I voluntarily go down a path towards standardization if it would exclude me from running the equipment I have spent years to build? Would you? If someone came along tomorrow and said "For the betterment of the hobby, we are going to standardize to HO since it is the best, most popular scale and everything will be better for everybody." Would you sell all your stuff and rip out an existing layout in the name of progress?