What would you like to see in the next AF catalog?

36" radius (72 diam) Fastrack curves.

es44ac in current BNSF paint.

I think you've pretty much covered it...

Mark in Oregon

1.

Well I don't think this has ever been done in S gauge:

That should not be a hard car to make.

2. I,being an MKT fan, obviously want this NW2:

3. A cow/calf switcher set would be a new item:

4. and last a very modern engine...a Genset switcher:

Mark

I agree with an SP GS Daylight.  Would also like to see:

D&H Alco PA passenger set (AA's only please--no B units as they weren't prototypical)

Santa Fe warbonnet Alcos with accurate nose decals (nobody but American Models has done this right in S)

A scale-detailed version of the new Flyonel NKP Berkshire

NYC Niagara

jonnyspeed,

Pretty much agree with all your choices.

track - as many variations as possible to allow those who use fastrack the ability to complete layouts in the configurations they need.

diesels - SD9 or any SD is a great choice. A Baldwin shark in D&H. Although all are probably too small overall to pack in all the electronics.

Steam - perfect choices! The hudson with centipede tender.

Freight - traditional line pickle and aquarium car.

Passenger - additional heavyweight roadnames. A green heavyweight pullman roadname set. Same in tuscan.

Rich

johnyspeed wrote:

Passenger cars:

-New scale or near-scale length cars

Pray tell, what is a "near-scale" length? 

I have heard of authentic genuine "scale length" and understand what that means.  I have heard of "shorty" passenger cars and understand they are significantly shorter than the prototype. 

How close to scale is a "near-scale" car?  It is the same as "almost" scale?  How about "nearly" scale?  Or "just-about" scale?  Maybe "practically" scale?  Or "approaching" scale?  Or "whatever-comes-out-of-the-mold" scale?

At the risk of sounding argumentative, it seems to me that a model is either "scale" or "not-scale".  Quite simple and easy to understand.  If realism is the goal, why settle for something less?  Maybe "less-than" scale?

Just thinking out loud.....Ed L.

Well put, Ed.

The O scale manufacturers have too many shades of gray in this area and too many clasifications, where they can't even agree with each other when they say an item is "scale".

Let's keep that out of "S" and keep it simple with two designations only.   Its scale or its not. 

Good Day,

What I'd buy are 21st Century rail cars!

TrinityRail 5161 Hopper

https://www.trinityrail.com/productdetails.aspx?id=45&catid=27

Rapid Discharge Hopper 2,402 cf   https://www.trinityrail.com/pr...tegories.aspx?sid=25

Bulkhead Flat Car 62'

https://www.trinityrail.com/productdetails.aspx?id=32&catid=31

Bi-Level  Autoracks

https://www.trinityrail.com/productdetails.aspx?id=10&catid=24

Regards,

Frank

IF the tooling for the set Berkshire is flexible enough, I'm gonna guess a scale proportioned and detailed NKP Berkshire with flanges that could be scalified by S Scale Locomotive and Supply, like the Y3.

Otherwise, I'm keeping my expectations low until proven otherwise.

Rusty

D&H ALCO PA'S Legacy

SD40-2 Legacy

NYC Hudson Legacy

I don't see what is so hard to understand about the concept. But perhaps I will simplify it for you so you can understand... While I personally would like to see scale cars, there are a lot of people running Flyer curves out there. Far more than there are running wide radius curves. Those are probably the people Lionel will target. So near scale would mean getting as close to scale as possible while still running on Flyer curves. Not that I want less than scale, but the reality is that is the biggest market. The staple of S has been the AM Budd cars. They are 74ft in scale if I recall. I would call that near scale and just about everyone in the hobby seems to be OK with that.

I'd prefer a scale car myself, but if Lionel decides to make a smaller car similar to what they make now, then I was asking for more details and lighting.

Does that clear it up for you Ed?

CenterBeam flat cars by Thrall Car

CenterBeam flat cars by National Steel Car

Pullman-Standard single-door and double-door 60' Boxcars

ACF Center Flow 2-bay covered hoppers

2970 Cubic Foot Capacity

2980 Cubic Foot Capacity

Andrew

1970's and 1980's built Three-Bay, Open-Top Hoppers based on designs by Bethlehem Steel, Greenville Steel Car, and Pullman-Standard.

Andrew

Well, it would appear that most of the interest is in modern rolling stock, not the more "traditional" War and Post War era.

I think I find that interesting...

Mark in Oregon

As I mentioned earlier, I'm keeping my expectations low.

However, there is one thing I would like to see not yet mentioned:

Faster time to market.

All the cataloged offerings in the world mean little if it takes more than one catalog cycle for them to be delivered.  We're bumping up against two years for the the first run of cylindrical hoppers already.

Even us S old timers can get tired of waiting...

Rusty

I'm totally with you there!

I also need to add one more to my list...

The SD-70MAC in Alaska RR scheme. I've been watching the Alaska RR show and I'm really liking those Blue/Gold trains set against the snowy white background

Faster time to market. +1

Oh sure,I get that. So, the next question is: why offer not one but two great modern diesels and not "automatically" include in the line some era-specific cars?

Seems like an odd way to "run a railroad"...

Mark in Oregon

>> most of the interest is in modern rolling stock, not the more "traditional" War and Post War era.

Mark in Oregon

Hi Mark....

One thing to keep in mind is that the folks here who are expressing opinions represent a very tiny fraction of the entire S community.  A dozen opinions here may not accurately reflect the desires of thousands of other folks who do not participate or even lurk here. 

With regard to the scale side of S, the modern era is a distinct minority.  The transition era is where all the action is.  While this might not be true for the AF segment of S (where lots of color wins every time regardless of era), it is really the case for scale enthusiasts.

Lionel has released two very modern diesels which are truly beautiful and seem to operate very well.  High marks on both accounts.  But if the sales volume is lagging on the scale side, it is simply because they are modern.  Not to mention the total void of public information about how to obtain scale wheels for AF modern diesels.  How is anyone to know scale wheels are even available?

My greatest fear is that Lionel will conclude there is insufficient interest in scale equipment to justify making it.  That conclusion, if it happens, would be a real loss to both Lionel and to the scale enthusiasts.  There are lots of willing S scale customers out there waiting for a transition-era product that is not articulated. 

Thoughtfully........Ed L.

While I agree with you on several of your points Ed, I have to really question if there are really "thousands" of other modelers in S scale. I highly doubt it. Even the S-scale Yahoo group has dropped by about 200 members in the past 3 years.

On the flip side, the S Scale Facebook group now has over 200 members at http://www.facebook.com/groups/sscale

One very good reason for posting here is that we know that Lionel and MTH both monitor the forum from time to time. If they aren't going to attend shows and talk with the public, this seems like a logical way to convey our interests to them. It works for the O gauge crowd.

Sticking my neck out here, but if the perception that the true S scale community represents 15% of the possible Lionel S market, then is that niche group prepared to pay considerably over the top for items that meet their criteria compared to the possible bulk sales that are hi-rail consumers?

We're kind of getting into "chicken and egg" land here. 

Would more folks get into S if there was more modern equipment or would more modern equipment get more folks into S?

The correct answer is: I dunno...

Modern seems to sell well in the other scales.  Model Railroader magazine features articles from those that do the contemporary scene almost as much as the steam/early diesel folks.  Much as I would like to see more stuff from the 50's and 60's, I realize that without contemporary models available, S will eventually wither away into obscurity.  Again...

It was a big surprise to me when Lionel offered scale wheeled locomotives, even though they now seemed to have backed away somewhat from them.  The bigger surprise was DCC compatibility.

I have to agree about dong the archeology for scale SD70 wheels.  It takes quite a bit of digging to find the part number on Lionel's website and then you have to call them to order the wheels, not just fill out a web order.  What a pain in the patootie...

Why not just give them a 6-xxxxx number and place them in the catalog?  Preferably in a conspicuous place on the locomotive's page AND back with the accessories.  If separate sale scale wheels are going to be the route Lionel chooses, why not allow us to order them when we order the locomotive from our favorite dealer?

And we're still not exactly sure which type of wheel will be included with the cylindrical hoppers.  The 2012 catalog mentioned scale wheels and trucks, the 2013 catalog is silent about "features."

I know, I know... "Items depicted in this catalog are subject to change in price, color, size, design and availability. Verify features on product package."

I'd love to have a cylindrical hopper in my hot little hands right now so I could verify those features on the package.

-----------

S Scale has always been a tough sale.  Even when the scale was "booming"(not exactly the right word, but shall we say the polite word...)  in the late 90's early 2000's, you could show off how wonderful the equipment ran, the decoration, the detail, the size advantage to the masses and folks would appear genuinely interested.

Then you'd get the musical question: "Where can I get it?" 

That's where the "sales pitch" fall flat.  You'd have to fumble around, maybe give them a handout (and an SHS catalog if available,) recommending web sites, Scenery Unlimited or some other small mail order house and your potential convert would slowly disappear into the crowd. 

American Models was the reboot S Scale needed in the 1980's.  That re-reboot will now fall on both Lionel and MTH.

Rusty

I can't speak for anyone but myself. I am willing to pay a premium for scale fidelity. I don't think we should necessarily have to though. As Martin pointed out, they are already charging the same amount as they do for an equivalent O scale model.

Having said that, I have also paid $750 for an unfinished DC brass GP30. So...

Hi Martin,

I was actually referring to Lionel actually making a product that was 100% scale as  earlier posts were implying as opposed to being hi-rail.  Although those $500 diesels are scale in concept and detail to a certain level, they are not 100% scale out of the box.

Lionel is trying to meet the demands from two specific groups and not meeting the needs of both.

>> if the perception that the true S scale community represents 15% of the possible Lionel S market, then is that niche group prepared to pay considerably over the top for items that meet their criteria compared to the possible bulk sales that are hi-rail consumers?

Reply:  First of all the 10-15% perception is darn close to fact based on statements made by SHS, AM and other manufacturing companies active in S gauge/scale trains.  The comments in this area are remarkably consistent over the years.  In the case of the SHS 2-8-0, it was reported the scale version represented almost 40% of total sales for that loco.  While scale is a minority, it is large enough to justify offering products for it.

Paying somewhat more for scale products is not a problem and there is no need for it to be SIGNIFICANTLY more.  The manufacturing cost differential between diesel scale wheels and diesel AF wheels is minor.  Providing Kadee coupler pads or brackets is also a minor cost.  Selling both items separately is not a problem as long as the part numbers are clearly shown in the catalog as Rusty suggested.  (Great idea, Rusty)

Selling diesel scale wheels at $5 per axle and including the coupler pad (or bracket) at no extra cost is a win-win arrangement for both Lionel and the scale modeler.  Selling freight car scale wheels at $2 or $3 per axle is done every day by other firms.  MTH is ripping the consumer off with their prices for scale wheels and I suspect the problem will come home to roost with them before much longer.

The point being that with careful thought and with good design, the added cost for a product suitable for both AF and scale customers is very minimal.  The scale guys will find this very acceptable -- IF THEY KNOW ABOUT IT.  Have I mentioned the communication problem yet?

Cheers...Ed L.

Jonathon,

If there is a considerable increase in costs to make a small percentage of items to scale proportions, then why shouldn't those people accept that the end item will be more expensive to purchase? Why should the hi-railers subsidise the scale fraternity?

Also, which email are you referring to from Martin that says they are charging the same or scale and hi-rail?

>> If there is a considerable increase in costs to make a small percentage of items to scale proportions, then why shouldn't those people accept that the end item will be more expensive to purchase?

First of all, the cost increase for a scale product is very minor assuming the body casting is equivalent to the SD70 with nice detailing and a beautiful paint job.  Selling scale diesel wheels at $5 per axle is not problem.  Selling scale freight car wheels at $2-$3 per axle is no problem. 

It is mostly a matter of the mindset taken at the outset.  If product designers are instructed to offer a scale version of a product, it can be done without much additional cost.  If the product is designed without such consideration, then it can become much more expensive.  No doubt about that.

Cheers....Ed L.

Ed,

As you say, assuming the body shell, frame etc are fully scale then yes the costs will be less, but as an example if you have swinging pilots, then that is just one example of not being scale, let alone any other dimensional issues.

Hi Martin,

I believe Jonathan was saying that you said that the S gauge version is the same as the O gauge version in price, but are the two exactly the same in detail and proportions?

Also the other perception is that if something is smaller/larger then the price differential is reflected accordingly, so in this case if the price is the same for both, is one better than the other in detail/scale but the cheaper version say in S is less in detail etc, etc?

Bearing in mind that Lionel is dedicated to the O market which is the larger sales volumes, are they denying both aspects of the S fraternity to make a one fit all?

Martin,

You are right, I think Jonathan was mis quoting you at some point.

The big, honkin' openings in the pilots of the AM diesel locomotives certainly aren't "scale" either.

I would rather deal with a swinging pilot that the mere suggestion of a pilot that traditional Flyer has.

We have to deal with a reality here.  S Scale (not HiRail or Flyer) is in no position to stand on it's own right now or in the foreseeable future.

The major manufacturers of S will have to make allowances for the Flyer/Hirail crowd if they expect to sell anything at all.

Rusty

>> if you have swinging pilots, then that is just one example of not being scale, let alone any other dimensional issues.

I would have to agree that swinging pilots add cost.  I would also suggest that those swinging pilots add a great deal of realism for the AF folks as well.  Especially when looking at the lead unit going around typical AF curves.  Once the AF guys get used to this improved pilot arrangement, I doubt they will want to go back to the old stuff where the coupler swings with the trucks in a hole large enough to accommodate an elephant or moving van.

If the scale guys and the AF guys both like the swinging pilot, I doubt it will become a cost issue/adder for the scale folks.  The pilots on the SD70 can be fixed into place with a couple of screws (provided) inserted into a couple of holes (also thoughtfully provided) for an acceptable (to most) realistic appearance.  Most likely, the scale folks will want to extend the handrailings down toward the ballast a bit more like the real ones.  But that is not hard to do and not everyone will want to make the effort.

A lot of assumptions here, but what the heck.......  My main point being that if designed from the beginning with both AF and scale folks in mind, the cost adder for scale wheels is not that much.  Very minor indeed.

Cheers......Ed L.

>> the other perception is that if something is smaller/larger then the price differential is reflected accordingly,

Let's keep in mind that the O gauge products use a bit more plastic and a bit more metal than the S gauge products.  The cost differential for a few ounces of plastic and metal is trivial.  The cost for the electronics inside is probably about the same.  Ditto for the motors, I would expect -- nearly the same, perhaps, with a minor differential.  The assembly cost is probably about the same since the same parts would go into an identical model in either scale.

The major cost factor is the cost of injection molding tooling amortized over the production run.  With a large production run, the tooling costs are smaller per unit.  With a smaller production run, the per-unit tooling costs can become very significant in a hurry.  Thus, a higher price for a smaller-sized product is primarily due to the smaller production volume of S when compared to O.  Makes perfect sense that the S products might sell for the same price as O products if the S production volumes are smaller. 

Nope, I am not an accountant.

"S"miles.......Ed L.