What would you like to see in the next AF catalog?

I'm hoping the fantasy paint subsides somewhat now the the NS heritage locomotives now are pretty much yesterday's news.

Realistically, I would hope to see more regular prototype roadnames on the SD70's (plus complete the UP heritage) and ES44's.  I'm not expecting any other new motive power other than the PE, C&O and NKP train set Berkshires.

I would also hope to see either the UP CA4/5 caboose or the B&O I-12 bay window caboose.  Their O scale brethren are quite nice(especially in their proper roadnames)  and after all, the NS fantasy freight cars need matching cabeese... 

The 60' modern boxcars and modern 3-bay open hoppers would also be a nice touch.

But, it would all be pretty much moot if it's going to be two years or more between catalog and delivery of actual product.

Rusty

Well, DCC compatibility is a result of input from this forum.  

I think Lionel peeks over here far more than MTH does.

Still, both companies need to get out of the "York Bubble" and start rubbing shoulders where S folks hang out:  Fall S Fest, Spring S Spree, and NASG conventions.

They don't have to bring a grand display like they do at York, just some samples or existing products, maybe an oval of FasTrack/S-Trax for demonstration purposes and one or two folks who'd be willing to talk and listen to us.

Rusty

Good Day,

If my memory is correct................ before the forum changed to their new format there was campaign for modern diesel locomotives. The American Flyer SD70ACe was produced with the help of the SD70ACe campaign on the S Scale forum as well as Model Railroader emails sent directly to Lionel making the suggestion to produce the SD70ACe. To help draw attention, I posted many prototypical pictures of the SD70ACe's.

Lionel does listen and does take action on our suggestions from time to time.

Best regards,

Frank

<snip> individual scale flange wheel sets are available for the SD70. <snip>  

Bob

The set of six scale wheelsets has a part number and can be ordered.  I have not seen any information regarding individual scale wheelsets.  Is there a part number for these?  Price?  Do we know for certain such an animal really exists?  Rumor?

Thanks.....Ed L.

I'm not sure anyone in any scale sells "individual" wheel sets.  They usually travel in gangs of 4's or 6's.

Rusty

"Individual" in the sense that the sets of wheels are particular to each engine type or to the new freight truck (as a complete truck).

Happy New Year.

Bob

>> Good grief. You guys might consider spending less time posting and more time on working on your layouts.  

Bob

Bob....

My layout has been featured in Railroad Model Craftsman, Great Model Railroads, Model Railroader, Model Railroad Hobbyist e-zine and the PBS TV show Tracks Ahead.  Right now I am working on two (count 'em) modular staging yards.  Over 300 feet of double track mainline, but I have never measured the yard trackage.

If your posts were less about rumors and more about facts, I would be a lot happier.

Ed L.

A 'tongue in cheek' remark as inticated by the  that was not included above. Sorry if it gave any offense.

What I've posted in an effort to be helpful was gained by talking with the responsible Lionel personel and, of course, by just simply reading the current catalogs. If some find this wanting then folks are always welcome to go talk with them on their own. Over and out.

Happy New Year to all. 

Bob 

I am going to start a storm.  As a traditional AF high railer I think Lionel should ignore the Scale S market and concentrate on the 85% of us who buy their S gauge products and support their bottom line.  Let after market people supply scale pieces for Lionel S gauge products to make them work for you scale guys.

Bite thy tongue!

Rusty

Can anyone supply information on kit bashing S scale items to make them high rail?

Roundhouse Bill wrote:

 I think Lionel should ignore the Scale S market and concentrate on the 85% of us who buy their S gauge products and support their bottom line.

Bill........Are you suggesting that Lionel does not make a profit on the items it sells to the scale enthusiasts?  Are there some facts to support this conclusion?  Ed L.

Of course I have not exact information as Lionel is not a publicly traded company but you have to sell a volume of a product to break even.  You will notice that Lionel is not offering the new ES44AC in scale versions like it did with the SD70.  In talking with people at Lionel they told me offering new products in the box with scale wheels and trucks was not profitable so they will sell scale wheel sets so scale guys can pay the extra money for them and install them themselves.  Remember too that for the U33 Lionel gave those scale wheel sets to buyers if they asked for them at no charge.  

Sure, I have a couple of Pacific Rail Shops car kits (pre-S Scale America/DesPlaines Hobbies) that I converted to hirail.  All it required was a minor modification to the underframe, a pair of SHS AF compatible couplers and hirail wheelsets.

No big deal.

Plus, in the more global view, S Helper Service products were designed as scale products adapted to hirail, as were American Models.

Rusty

I may have commented on this thread before, but here's what I would want. Realistically, I would say non-fantasy road names on the cylindrical hoppers. These cars are priced at the higher end of what I'd consider "affordable", and I won't buy one with a farcical paint scheme. I want to support Lionel's latest efforts, but meet me half way.

Let's see more kinds of contemporary freight cars now that we have current day diesels. The cylindrical hopper first appeared in the '60s, and are reaching or have reached the end of their lives. Great for the U33Cs however. BTW would mind seeing more roadnames of those, with DCC mixed in, of course.

Any new locomotive should have modular dies, so we could have upper or lower headlights. etc. according to the prototypes. Would love BNSF, but lower headlights, please. We pay a lot for these models. Make them accurate.

Legacy/AC/DC/DCC boards on all premium locomotives.

Here's a minor one; prices for the Polar Express, and those other Berkshires we've been seeing in the catalog. If that will be scale proportioned, a fully detailed version eventually.

Speaking of scale proportioned, Let them get more mileage from the Northern dies. How about a SP&S 4-8-4? With a set of Pullman green heavyweights. 

The tender is more or less spot on. And has to be as close as the Milwaukee 4-8-4 Lionel did years back.

Speaking of Pullman green heavyweights, how about a set lettered "Pullman" we could use behind an engine from any road.

As I buy and operate both high-rail and scale, I would like to see scale wheels offered on premium models even if only on pre-orders from you favorite dealer or LHS. 

Lastly, and most importantly, the track line expanded to include large radii curve and switches, and let's throw 30" straights in the mix as well.

Since Lionel reads this, I expect all of these suggestions to be in the 2014 catalog.

Thanks.

is it really necessary to post a reply which includes a previous posting of getting on to 1,000 words with the new post having only 12 or so words?

Cut and past any salient sections by all means but please don't blindly hit the reply which includes war and peace.

The dicussions here have been pretty much downright civil compared to what goes on in the 3-rail forum...

By the way...  Even though I'm not really into contemporary modeling, I wouldn't mind if this was in the next catalog:

Rusty

>> Remember too that for the U33 Lionel gave those scale wheel sets to buyers if they asked for them at no charge.  

I do not remember getting free wheels with my U33.  I paid big bucks for that loco and called Lionel for the wheels which were included in the purchase price.  No such thing as "free" wheels.  Had to buy the loco first and pay for it before being able to get the scale wheels.  "Free" means you get something without cost.  Those wheels were not free by any stretch of the imagination.

Going back to your insinuation that scale guys do not make a profit contribution to Lionel's bottom line, I think you owe all of them an apology.

________________

Answer - Yes Lionel did provide U33 scale set wheels free if you bought the first run of the locomotives.  I bought two of the first run and got the scale wheels sets free including shipping.

I will not make an appology because what I stated were facts.  Further, I felt I needed to make a point.  You Scale S gaugers are the vast minority of the market and yet expect toy train companies to tool their products for your needs.  You will notice that High Railers don't complain like you do all the time on this site.  In talking with people in the industry a term I have heard is that you are the "noisy" group.   

I like what "Quick Casey" posted a few hours ago,regarding the SP&S 700,the "generic" Pullman cars and the large radius track...

Mark in Oregon

Speaking of Pullman green heavyweights, how about a set lettered "Pullman" we could use behind an engine from any road.

 You already have them...

Hi-Rail HW8014HR|319.95|Pullman Green 72' Passenger 5 Car Set Hi-Rail" Scale HW8014S|319.95|Pullman Green 72' Passenger 5 Car Set Scale		Pullman green set	HW8014

 Set includes Baggage, RPO, Combine, Coach and Observation Cars. Cars are lighted with silhouettes.
5 car set - $319.95

Compared to the heavyweights Lionel put out, the American Models ones are top drawer.  The Flyonel heavies are way too toy like for today's market.  Plus, you have no option to change the couplers other than sawing them off...  No, I do not like mine and they were way too expensive for the quality.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

I would like to see 25,500 gal tank cars like AtlasO is about to ship.

GATX markings, please.

>> Roundhouse Bill wrote:  Can anyone supply information on kit bashing S scale items to make them high rail?

An interesting question.  A good place to start would be with the new Lionel/AF cylindrical hopper which is coming with scale wheels direct from the factory in China.  Why not ask Lionel to sell some AF-compatible wheels as a separate product?  Then you could pay extra to buy those wheels and install them yourself.  This is the perfect project for the AF enthusiasts to make some noise. 

In a more general sense, all it takes to convert a scale item to an AF-compatible item is a set of AF wheels and an AF coupler.  If the coupler is mounted to the trucks in typical AF fashion, the job is really simple.  It might be easier to swap the entire truck instead of just the wheels.  Unscrew the scale truck and attach the AF-compatible truck which includes the AF coupler and you are ready to go.  Will take all of 20 minutes once you get the hang of it.

Good luck.....Ed L.

Speaking of Pullman green heavyweights, how about a set lettered "Pullman" we could use behind an engine from any road.

 You already have them...

 

 

Hi-Rail HW8014HR|319.95|Pullman Green 72' Passenger 5 Car Set Hi-Rail" Scale HW8014S|319.95|Pullman Green 72' Passenger 5 Car Set Scale		Pullman green set	HW8014

 

 Set includes Baggage, RPO, Combine, Coach and Observation Cars. Cars are lighted with silhouettes.
5 car set - $319.95

 

Compared to the heavyweights Lionel put out, the American Models ones are top drawer... No, I do not like mine and they were way too expensive for the quality.

 

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

Hey Tom

So...which ones do you not like? 

Hope you're managing to keep warm...

Mark in Oregon

>> you are asking Bill for an apology after the arrogant post YOU wrote to Bob about how famous YOUR layout is?

Bob told me I should work more on my layout instead of posting messages he did not like.  I was merely informing him that my layout is pretty much already completed.  I never claimed the layout was famous.  Just stating some facts about the layout and not trying to be arrogant.  I do apologize if it offended you.  If you want to see the layout in action, click here:

http://sscale.org/best-of-s/ed-loizeaux/ 

>> I wonder if you have anything constructive to say at all. 

My main point on this forum has consistently been that S scale models with scale wheels and/or couplers represent a worthwhile feature for the Lionel/AF product line to have.  I believe it is constructive for Lionel to hear this from one (or more) of their customers.  And the more times they hear it, the better.  Better for Lionel and better for the scale guys too.  And also better for the AF guys as well.

Other constructive comments were a full explanation of how to obtain the scale wheels for the SD70 when, at the same time, other folks were saying the wheels were still in China -- which was not true at all.  Not to mention doing favorable brief product reviews for the SD70 and U33 on behalf of the NMRA-affiliated S SIG.  Click here if you are interested in reading them:

http://sscale.org/988/volume-2...diesel-first-look-2/ 

http://sscale.org/579/volume-1-no-6-lionel-u33c/ 

Regarding the Y-3, you can find two online video clips of my scale-converted Lionel product here:

http://sscale.org/1031/volume-...ra-2-8-8-2-reviewed/ 

And in the  S GAUGIAN magazine this past summer, I wrote a detailed article about how SSL&S converts the Lionel AF product to a scale product capable of running on NMRA compliant trackage.  Not to mention assisting Fred Rouse in establishing a working relationship with Lionel so he can obtain parts, etc. as needed.  Quite a few Y-3 AF locos have been purchased by scale guys and sent to Fred for conversion to scale.  Lionel would not have made those sales if it was not for being able to obtain a scale conversion.  I think that Y-3 effort was quite constructive. 

Actually, I think all of the above efforts are constructive and helpful to Lionel.  I see nothing unconstructive about any of them.  Can you specify which of my (admittedly many) comments is not constructive?

And your constructive efforts are............??

>> I don't know if those magazine articles or PBS spot you got made you think that you are somehow more qualified than the rest of us to say what we want.  I've been reading the crap you post on here towards Lionel for about six months now and I truly think the only real problem you have with them is they do not come to the great Ed Loizeaux and ask for your blessing on what YOU think we should all want for this hobby. 

I have never made any remark about anyone's qualifications.  I do take inaccurate statements and way-out opinions to task as I believe they are harmful and counterproductive. 

Actually, Lionel has come to me and uses my layout as a Beta site test layout for DCC and new scale locos, etc.  Of course, you are entitled to your opinion and freedom of speech regarding any issue.  No problem there.  Do you have the courage to use your real name?

>> Most of your "issues" that you posted back on page one of this thread could have been addressed with one phone call or E-mail to Mike Regan - do you even know who he is?

Yes, I have conversed on the telephone with Mike and have had email discussions with him.  I have even complimented him in past posts.  But that does not change the desire to see scale wheels more fully described in the catalog with part numbers included.  Nor does it have any bearing on the desire for more realistic paint jobs on individual freight cars. 

>> Also Ed, just for the record, the only one who thinks that what Bob posted is a rumor is you.

Please show me where I can buy INDIVIDUAL scale wheels for the SD70.  It is not possible to the best of my knowledge.  Sure sounds like a rumor to me, but I am open to new information.  We already know about SETS of scale wheels and so there is no need to repeat that information.

>> I do not think you owe me or anyone else an apology,

It would appear that you agree with Roundhouse Bill's opinion that selling scale products does not contribute to Lionel's profits.  Is that what you truly believe?  I find that hard to believe. 

Yard work beckons.  Gotta go.  No snow out here.  Wish the rest of you folks back East the best of luck.  Ed L.

Speaking of Pullman green heavyweights, how about a set lettered "Pullman" we could use behind an engine from any road.

 You already have them...

 

 

Hi-Rail HW8014HR|319.95|Pullman Green 72' Passenger 5 Car Set Hi-Rail" Scale HW8014S|319.95|Pullman Green 72' Passenger 5 Car Set Scale		Pullman green set	HW8014

 

 Set includes Baggage, RPO, Combine, Coach and Observation Cars. Cars are lighted with silhouettes.
5 car set - $319.95

 

Compared to the heavyweights Lionel put out, the American Models ones are top drawer.  The Flyonel heavies are way too toy like for today's market.  Plus, you have no option to change the couplers other than sawing them off...  No, I do not like mine and they were way too expensive for the quality.

 

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

Since Tom brought them up, I thought I'd drag out these old chestnuts.  A comparison of the Lionel Pullman vs. the AM 72' coach and Flyer 60' (repro) Pullman.

Of course, the AM model is based on CNJ coach, not a Pullman.  Adding 6 wheel trucks beefs them up a little.

And the Lionel Pullman vs. the AM 85' Pullman (still available, but unpainted only.)

Now, the Lionel Pullman isn't a bad car, although it strikes me the window band may be a tad low. 

They are relatively heavy and exert a fair amount of drag, even after they've been lubricated.  When running the full compliment of 6 cars behind the Alton Pacific, the locomotive will slip a little at slower speeds when rounding a 24" radius SHS curve.

Now, the Lionel Pullman isn't a bad car, although it strikes me the window band may be a tad low. 

They are indeed relatively heavy and exert a fair amount of drag, even after they've been lubricated.  When running the full compliment of 6 cars behind the Alton Pacific, the locomotive will slip a little at slower speeds when rounding a 24" radius SHS curve.

Rusty

Originally Posted by Tom's Turnouts:

Speaking of Pullman green heavyweights, how about a set lettered "Pullman" we could use behind an engine from any road.

 You already have them...

 

 

Hi-Rail HW8014HR|319.95|Pullman Green 72' Passenger 5 Car Set Hi-Rail" Scale HW8014S|319.95|Pullman Green 72' Passenger 5 Car Set Scale		Pullman green set	HW8014

 

 Set includes Baggage, RPO, Combine, Coach and Observation Cars. Cars are lighted with silhouettes.
5 car set - $319.95

 

Compared to the heavyweights Lionel put out, the American Models ones are top drawer.  The Flyonel heavies are way too toy like for today's market.  Plus, you have no option to change the couplers other than sawing them off...  No, I do not like mine and they were way too expensive for the quality.

 

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

Since Tom brought them up, I thought I'd drag out these old chestnuts.  A comparison of the Lionel Pullman vs. the AM 72' coach and Flyer 60' (repro) Pullman.

 

Of course, the AM model is based on CNJ coach, not a Pullman.  Adding 6 wheel trucks beefs them up a little.

 

And the Lionel Pullman vs. the AM 85' Pullman (still available, but unpainted only.)

Now, the Lionel Pullman isn't a bad car, although it strikes me the window band may be a tad low. 

 

They are relatively heavy and exert a fair amount of drag, even after they've been lubricated.  When running the full compliment of 6 cars behind the Alton Pacific, the locomotive will slip a little at slower speeds when rounding a 24" radius SHS curve.

 

 

Now, the Lionel Pullman isn't a bad car, although it strikes me the window band may be a tad low. 

 

They are indeed relatively heavy and exert a fair amount of drag, even after they've been lubricated.  When running the full compliment of 6 cars behind the Alton Pacific, the locomotive will slip a little at slower speeds when rounding a 24" radius SHS curve.

 

Rusty

 

 

What's the min radius for the AM 85' Pullman? I noticed that it has truck mounted couplers.

Produce the GATX TankTrain tank car sets in S Scale.

Produce the 30,000 Gallon Tank Car 3-Car Sets in S Scale.

Andrew

I really don't know for sure, I'm gonna take a stab at 27" radius. 

My minimum radius is around 29+" and my 85' cars will make it with body mounted Kadees.

Rusty

Three days ago I made some statements that had their intended result.  This note is not an appology, but an admission.  I admit that I wanted to make some strong statements about the S Scale market to hear what was said. What came back was interesting to hear.

Now I have an earned doctorate from the University of San Francisco so I know how to ask questions to get a clear answer.  I decided to do some reseach on the size of the scale market so I called and talked with people and Lionel and MTH.  I asked them what percent of their business was scale.  I also contacted national retail companines and asked them what percentage of their business was selling scale products.   All of the answers were 15% or less.  I am not going to say who I called and give names for obvious reasons.  From my research no more than 15% of the train hobby is scale and the rest is high rail.

In looking at publications and sites like this in the hobby it is obvious that the content is more than 15% scale so scale guys are at an advantage.  You should be pleased.  Us high rail people are what could be termed "The Silent Majority." 

Thanks. That's what I was looking for. I'm drawing up a new track plan and I'm trying to work out what min. radius I need vs. what I can fit.

Well,I do not have a doctorate, but I must ask; are you sure about that "15% of the train hobby"? I have to wonder what the N,HO and 2 rail O Scalers would say about that...

Mark in Oregon

15% scale is the number I've been hearing since I got into S in 1985.  

Pretty good considering that S was more identified with Gilbert Flyer more than anything else back then.

And as far as us being "noisy."   Well, the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Rusty

>>  I called and talked with people and Lionel and MTH. I asked them what percent of their business was scale. <snip> All of the answers were 15% or less.

It would be interesting to know what is the definition of "scale" used by different companies.  All of HO and N could be considered scale because there is no 3-rail or AF tinplate cousin to complicate things.  HO alone accounts for about 85% of the hobby of model railroading. N is the second most popular size and is generally considered to be scale also.

>> I also contacted national retail companines and asked them what percentage of their business was selling scale products.   All of the answers were 15% or less.  I am not going to say who I called and give names for obvious reasons.

If the firms contacted were major Lionel dealers/distributors, that answer would not surprise me.  If Walther's or Overland Models or PBL was contacted, I would say there is a communication problem -- probably with the meaning of the word "scale".

>> From my research no more than 15% of the train hobby is scale
and the rest is high rail.

This is a very difficult conclusion to accept when you consider that all of HO and N scales are usually considered "scale".  Unless, of course, you include in the hobby things like Brio trains which run on wood track or the multiple variations of Thomas the Tank Engine and various battery-powered-run-on-the-floor trains which are obviously not scale.  HO and N are generally considered "model railroading" while Brio and Thomas and friends are generally considered "toys". 

Understanding the definitions and mindset of the responders is hard to figure out from the information given.  For instance, what is the definition of "train hobby"? It all sort of depends on how you define things and who you ask and in what context.  No matter how you slice it, I would be happy to accept as fact that there are fewer scale model railroaders in the world than there are people of all ages playing with train toys.  No doubt about it.

Just some thoughts.  Not trying to be negative or critical. 

Cheers......Ed L.

Ed

Well said; I guess that was the point I was trying to make in my last post.

Although I suppose that one could make the argument that,except for those working in what's known as "fine scale" (Proto:48 and P:87, etc.) aren't the rest of us really all doing a form of "high rail"?

Mark in Oregon

To get this thread back on track I think Lionel could do some really nice scale length passenger cars with detailed interiors, LED lighting, and telescoping drawbar style couplers.

After looking at the Mikados and Pacifics at the WGH show I also have to say that I would really like to see these done again. Lower gearing and 4 chuffs/revolution this time please.

40" Diameter curve tracks

89' Flat Cars with intermodal trailers

89' Flat Cars with 1970's Auto Racks

89' Flat Cars with 1990's Auto Racks

Andrew