Whistle=run away

Gregg,

Turning the smoke "on" sometimes resulted in losing the headlight and class lights.

 happened to different engines as well.

 Must be a software glitch

Actually, that sounds like a MUX board issue that was somewhat prevalent in earlier PS2 steamers. I'd give MTH a call to be sure.

I can't shed any light on the "whistle runaway".

Dont know much about DCS, but just a thought.

Was at our local club last night. Those guys run the

little trains(HO),(my wifie calls them crap trains).

Anyway, they were running an HO MTH DCC system loco

and on that loco and system when you come to a stop

and play through the station sounds, after the sequence is finished

the loco will take off automatically at the same speed you came into

the station at.

That's not a bug, that's a feature

Seriously though, that is how the station stop sequence works. If you trigger it while the loco is running in reverse, not only will it resume in reverse, it'll give the reverse horn/whistle signal (three short) before proceeding.

---PCJ 

You have to slow down to your "exit" speed before you press the PFA key if you want a realistic exit from the station.  Also, at a slow speed, you should be able to make a more realistic stop at the station anyway.

Gregg, Is the same engine doing this?  I would change out the smoke fan motor.  Or disconnect it and then test it.  Don't run this way since the heating element will remain on, and you don't want to burn the wick.

A smoke fan motor going bad can cause this.  Not sure of the full mechanism, but I just repaired a Premier engine with a MUX set up that had a constant bell while moving, sometimes whistle when in reverse.  I found that if I cycled the smoke unit on and off via the POT, I could stop and start the bell. Direction change did the same thing (makes sense since on steam when in motion the fan motor is cycling on and off for chuff).

Since the fan is driven by the same 5V power supply which powers the microchips, processor power supply, and the tach reader this can be the cause of your symptom. 

I have noticed a number of different issues that bad fan motors cause.  Many times I find they have been flooded with smoke fluid by too much fluid being put in.  It overflows into the impeller chamber then leaks into the motor through the holes in the can.   G

Wow that is some good troubleshooting!

Thanks for posting those findings.

Dave

GGG unfortunately  losing the headlight happens with different engines.  Now I'm not so sure the smoke unit was causing the problem.That's the frustrating part. Here's the set up.... PWZWs for power (fused)

4 tiu in super at different locations. TMCC base attached to an outside rail.

   A feature reset fixes the problem but it seems to happen too often... we'll see what happens now that the layout is operational and we get in more running time.

Thanks for the reply guys.

The head light issue is interesting.  Having it happen on more then one engine would lead me to think it is the setup or DCS issues.

As far as speeding up with whistle which only effects one engine, I would still turn off smoke and see if the engine still responds to a whistle by speeding up.  The fan I removed ohmed out at 12 which is what they normally are, and functioned perfectly at making smoke.  Once I unplugged it the engine whistle and bell worked properly.  Once I installed the new fan, it continued to work properly with smoke on.

I am assuming you are talking about using DCS and not the whistle lever on the PW ZW correct?

I guess, one thing I would try is swapping to a more modern transformer and see it that helps with any of the issues.  Just systematically, try to eliminate the various parts of the set up.  What version of DCS to you have loaded?  G

I wonder if those motors are generating brush noise to cause the problems?  Did you ever try a 1uf NP cap across the motors?

Thanks for your interest and replies.

We're running strictly command version 4.2 although the odd remote still has 4.1

We don't have any other power supplies  other than the  8 PWZWs. Changing  those out is probably not a option at this time. Adding cap across the motors is a option but.... Shouldn't have to and that would be a big job with 20 or so engines.

We're going to go back to 3.11 with the tiu and 3 or 4 remotes and see how it goes for a week or so. Don't forget this is a super mode problem and not normal mode. Hopefully MTH with have a new software  version out shortly.  One of my sources says they're working on it   ..Guess who.. initials are B.B.

Later... gregg

Gregg,

Guess who.. initials are B.B.

Who??

That problem of lights going out when hitting the smoke on button has been a bug in the system for years in my opinion. I'm running 4.1 and it's been there for a long time. It happens on multiple engines. It also makes me reluctant to turn smoke units on and off when recording.

That problem of lights going out when hitting the smoke on button has been a bug in the system for years in my opinion

To the best of my knowledge, that is not a DCS bug. Issues like that are most often associated with engines with MUX boards that were wired incorrectly during production.

Unfortunately one  of the engines has a upgrade kit... no MUX board but.. some do and they're the one that most frequently do it.  Yes 4.1 as well, hmmm time for a change  perhaps?

Gregg,

Unfortunately one  of the engines has a upgrade kit

That, alone, makes it suspect.

Help this old timer out please--What is a MUX board? I suspect this problem might be engine specific but I also remember it starting when I upgraded to 4.1. I'll try to verify this engine specific thing. Can a bad MUX board be fixed?

Can a bad MUX board be fixed?

A MUX board is slang for a multiplexor board which is used to control lighting (or other stuff) when there are more circuits than the PS2 board is normally capable of supporting.

The documented problem in some steamers is that the MUX board was wired incorrectly. Although it could be replaced if defective, the fix in the case under discussion is only a matter of changing the connection of a few wires.

Thanks Barry. I'll explore this option of possibly rewiring with a service person. I believe it may be isolated to certain steamers.

I believe it may be isolated to certain steamers.

That's correct, it is.

For either engine (Gregg or GHD) disconnect the smoke fan motor at the 2 pin plug if provided.  Run your train with smoke on to test.  See if the problems go away.

Only do the test for a short period since the heating elements will be on, but no cooling air flow.   The smoke fan motor (while still spinning) can cause issues on engines.  Random sounds, blown audio amps, possibly issues with Lighting via the MUX board.

The 5V to run the fan runs many of the critical functions on the PS-2 board, and goes thru the MUX board for engines with them.  Simple test.  If eveything is fine with fan disconnected, try changing the smoke fan out with a new one ($6).  It maybe that simple.   G

Thanks G, We'll give it a try first chance we get, Hopefully tomorrow,

In the mean time we're back at 3.11 for testing, Scrolling issues definitely gone. Will the lights turning off problem disappear as well. I think it's still happening. back later on this one. 

G   can engines with out a mux board still have unwanted fan interference noise? or whatever happens?

Thanks for the replies guys.

If this is a board and wiring problem, can it give random results? I don't remember this be a consistent event. I'm going to revisit this with my steamers, but my memory says it was happening on a hit or miss basis. Stay tuned.

I ran an engine I remembered having the lights out problem tonight. Last night I ran it briefly and turning the smoke unit on and off a couple of times didn't affect the lights. However, tonight I ran it and after turning the station sounds on one time, it would kill the lights when turning the smoke unit off. It didn't always do it, but I could get it to do it frequently and it seemed to happen when turning the smoke unit off. I'll be interested to see if 3.11 has any effect on the light thing from Gregg.

Try unplugging the fan motor. Then run your test.  Any reason not to upgrade the DCS system to 4.20?  G

No light failures today with 3 or 4 engines after an hour or so running and turning smoke on & off. Doesn't mean anything yet.

Gregg, are you suggesting that unplugging the fan motor will point to the MUX board as the problem if things work OK otherwise? The reason I don't upgrade is basically it's too much of a pain for me for the benefits. I'm not set up to do it and I have 3 TIU's and 3 remotes I have to uninstall and redo. I'm happy with the present 4.1 and it's couple of bugs that I' know about. I'm sure 4.2 has a couple of bugs as well. I saw where Phil asked Barry about the timing of the fix of some of these bugs a while back and I don't remember seeing a date. There's a point where one has to be happy with what they have and I enjoy my present DCS stuff. If this really is a fixable MUX board problem, I'll go after it. But I'm still from Missouri on this. Sorry Barry.

G, Here.  I am saying that the smoke fan motor can generate a lot of noise that is on a critical circuit that controls many of the engines functions.  That noise can reflect into the control circuits.

I had not heard about the mis-wired MUX issue Barry talked about.  There were PS-2 5V MUX systems that could have flickering lights.  The fix was to change resistor on the MUX boards, reroute the Blue Ground wire.  Later engines had the fix installed at production and this was not an issue for PS-2 3V systems.

MUX boards seem to be pretty robust.  There are 2.  One in tender with boards to send.  One in engine to receive.

So unless this is a DCS bug, the highest probability of an issue is the Fan motor.

If it was my engine I would do a feature and a Factory reset then run the engine as normal.  If it acts up, I would repeat the feature and factory reset and unplug the fan motor and see if it goes away.  If not, then I would swap out  the MUX board.  If it still acts up, the processor board has an issue, or it is a DCS bug.  Do you have other equivalent steamers that have this problem, or only this engine?

G

G, thanks for all the info. I had most of my steamers off my layout and was running diesels. I'm putting them back on now and will check this out. From memory, this lights out thing was happening to several engines, but not necessarily all. I thought this problem was discussed on the forum by others and was considered to be a bug in 4.1 along with the lash-up bug and maybe some others. I believe my son also had this problem on his layout with 4.1. He has since upgraded to the L TIU's and 4.2. We spend a day together at York so I'll get the scoop then. I'm betting that the 3.11 will eliminate this problem. If it turns out to be a fixable MUX board thing I'll consider doing it. My service tech is checking with Jeff at MTH to see what he knows. As I'm typing all this, it occured to me that I think this problem happened after I did the 4.1 upgrade. Let me know how the 3.11 works out please.

George

George,

Look at this thread, 3rd post:

https://ogrforum.com/d.../lastReply#lastReply

Let me know how the 3.11 works out please.

  Sure thing, however it'll be next week before I can get back to the layout. As I mentioned, we only ran a few engines for an hour or so after going back to 3.11. Going back is a little scary, a couple of the remote went completely blank and I'm not sure how they came back to life. Anyway we have 5 back at 3.11 and the  super mode scrolling issues have disappeared.. No run-aways yet.

Yes we still have a tiu  & remote set a side if we ever need the "recover engine feature"

Yep, if it happens too often again we'll try G's suggestion of unplugging the smoke unit fan. Later.

Thanks Barry. You're always a great help. I'll see my service tech gets this. So far I'm batting 50%. 3 engines do it and 3 don't! Looks like it's engine specific as Barry said.

Why? Flickering headlights is one thing, disappearing headlight and class light is another. A feature reset fixes the disappearing lights but not the flickering. The MUX problem has been around toooo long IMHO.

Both are probably MUX board related but  I can't  remember this happening as  frequently  with earlier versions of the software. I've had all of them since 02.Time will tell.

Gregg, after I sent that reply, it occured to me that I'm talking about all the lights going out and not a flickering problem. Turning the headlight back on fixes the problem on some engines. I think this only happens after using the station sounds. When having visitors, I like to start my program by having the passenger train with the smoke on stop by the station and pick up the people. I would then turn the smoke unit off while continuing with the rest of the recorded program. The lights would almost always go off. But, hitting the headlight button would restore them and most guests would not even notice. I seldom do a restore to correct this, getting to the "more" features usually works, but you may have to do more than one function depending on the engine. You're right, time will tell here.

NEW THEORY! I talked to my son and he believes this is a signal strength problem. He said it happened a lot and to different engines for him and after he did the upgrade to the L TIU's and I believe 4.2 it still happens ocasionally but it is much improved. I think he may have hit on something here. Time will tell!

Barry, That is the flickering light issue.  The ground wire wasn't really miswired, they went for the thicker ground wire to the MUX board.  Also had the resistor swaps as listed.    Sounds like this may be a DCS version issue.  G

George,

He said it happened a lot and to different engines for him and after he did the upgrade to the L TIU's and I believe 4.2 it still happens ocasionally but it is much improved.

It may, indeed, be related to a signal strength issue, although I personally I see that as exteremly unlikely.

However, if it is A signal strength issue it has nothing to do with using DCS 4.20 vs. an older release.

Further, if it's related to the Rev. L TIU at all, then the Rev. L itself is defective.

Regardless, conduct a DCS signal strength test on the layout where the problem occurs, using the same problem engine. Then, you'll know if it's possible that the problem is related to low DCS signal strength. Right now, you're simply guessing.

Barry, you're right. At this point I'm guessing. The engineer in me is working on the process of elimination. It just hit me that I don't recall ever having this problem with a diesel, but then I don't use the station sounds with them like I do with the steamers. I have a fourth steamer that does it, I just learned. My son had such an improvement with the new TIU's that I'm favoring his signal strength theory at this point. His problem may be gone completely, but I need further discussion with him. Time will tell here, and I certainly welcome your input Barry. So far, I connect this happening after using station sounds.

George

Two many George's here:-)  So have you tried pulling into the station without using station sounds.  Turn bell on and pulling to location of the station and stop engine.  Then turn smoke off and see if lights go out?  Or go to a different location where you know you have good signal strength and try the test?

The MUX is a multiplexer.  It takes in+5V DC, PCB Ground, both Motor leads to create Postive voltage for the lights, and an input from the transmit mux in the tender.  The single mux line controls the interior lights, and headlights on the engine MUX.  The engine markers are also controlled.

It is used to allow more feature controls in the engine then you could get with the 10 pin harness limitations.  Using one signal line you can control headlights and interior lights individually, plus have marker lights.

Diesels don't have this issue since the board is co-located with the functions.  Not limited by 10 wires.  (Direct access to the 4 pin, 7pin, 12 pin, 8 pin and 5 pin connectors).  Hence no MUX needed.

Since this is multiple engines with MUX boards I would still think this is related to something other than the hardware, otherwise everyone would have this issue.  So either the DCS command signals for the version you are using, the lack of signal strength, or some other interference is telling the MUX to turn off lights when smoke is turned off.

The 5VDC powers the engine MUX board, the markers and smoke fan and tach are piggy backed off the 5VDC signal feeding the MUX.  This is why a smoke fan problem can be reflected back into the MUX board and cause issues.  G