I recently started acquiring TMCC diesels but none of them run well on my layout. My layout currently runs legacy fine which makes me very confused. I use CAB1. Does tmcc require some type of different wiring?
Original Post
Replies sorted oldest to newest
No, it does not require different wiring. You must ID your TMCC engines in a number from 1-7 on your legacy remote for them to work. If that does not fix your issue, let me know
There are many versions of TMCC. Lionel, ERR, TAS. Some have Cruise, others don’t. You might want to be more specific about what engines you have.
Pete
@Sams Trains posted:No, it does not require different wiring. You must ID your TMCC engines in a number from 1-7 on your legacy remote for them to work. If that does not fix your issue, let me know
I was able to ID them and lash em up.
https://youtube.com/shorts/2MNNavWw2MI?feature=shared
here’s a video on what they do
He said he’s using a Cab1, not a Legacy remote. Am I missing something?
@Norton posted:There are many versions of TMCC. You might want to be more specific about what engines you have.
Pete
6-28211
6-18271
6-18269
@Diego posted:I was able to ID them and lash em up.
https://youtube.com/shorts/2MNNavWw2MI?feature=shared
here’s a video on what they do
Have you lubricated them when you bought them? Older TMCC will not run as good as a LEGACY locomotive, especially at slow speeds. The technology is outdated, and they are pretty old. Do they still bog down like this at faster speeds?
@Mark V. Spadaro posted:He said he’s using a Cab1, not a Legacy remote. Am I missing something?
You are not, I did. I thought he was having issues with them running in general. That was my first problem with a TMCC engine
@Sams Trains posted:Have you lubricated them when you bought them? Older TMCC will not run as good as a LEGACY locomotive, especially at slow speeds. The technology is outdated, and they are pretty old. Do they still bog down like this at faster speeds?
I lubricated them and they still bog down
@Diego posted:I lubricated them and they still bog down
It looked like the UP loco had the cab light flicker. If your engines are not getting enough electricity that would cause your problem. Otherwise it looks like it is working normally for a TMCC loco
Flickering may be dirty track or wheels.
There could be lots of reasons why your TMCC engines do not run as well, but in general, my experience is that Legacy engines are much more forgiving than TMCC engines when it comes to electrical deficiencies in one's layout wiring.
In other words, if you have signal strength issues, connectivity, voltage loss/drop, dirty track, etc. issues, Legacy engines may run acceptably, while TMCC engines might not.
I'm not saying this is the reason in your case, but I'd double check all my wiring and connections, make sure my track is clean, etc.
https://youtube.com/shorts/9xju-_ndUgU?feature=shared
https://youtu.be/pCWZLmU5eA4?feature=shared
https://youtube.com/shorts/oLavm1tREM0?feature=shared
heres a some videos showing my wiring and where feeders are located
@Richie C. posted:There could be lots of reasons why your TMCC engines do not run as well, but in general, my experience is that Legacy engines are much more forgiving than TMCC engines when it comes to electrical deficiencies in one's layout wiring.
In other words, if you have signal strength issues, connectivity, voltage loss/drop, dirty track, etc. issues, Legacy engines may run acceptably, while TMCC engines might not.
I'm not saying this is the reason in your case, but I'd double check all my wiring and connections, make sure my track is clean, etc.
I posted a few videos showing my wiring if you wanna watch
@Sams Trains posted:It looked like the UP loco had the cab light flicker. If your engines are not getting enough electricity that would cause your problem. Otherwise it looks like it is working normally for a TMCC loco
I posted a video on my wiring if you wanna see. I consists of three videos
Check to make sure your pickup rollers and wheels are clean. I just got out an older TMCC engine and it performed poorly until I cleaned the rollers and wheels. Something to check.
@Sams Trains posted:Older TMCC will not run as good as a LEGACY locomotive, especially at slow speeds. The technology is outdated, and they are pretty old. Do they still bog down like this at faster speeds?
Personally, I've never had any particular problems with any of my TMCC engines with respect to being fussy about wiring or anything else. The technology has been replaced by Lionel, but TMCC was pretty bulletproof.
As Norton said, there are different flavors to TMCC, primarily in that there are some TMCC engines with Pullmor AC motors and no cruise control (mostly the earlier TMCC engines), and newer TMCC engines having DC motors with (and some without) cruise control. The AC motored engines don't run as slowly as the DC (although a well broken-in AC motored TMCC engine can run fairly slowly as well, but that's another story), but the the DC powered TMCC engines with cruise (Odyssey 1 system) are capable of running very slowly.
All of your TMCC engines are newer ones with DC motors and cruise control, so they should run smoothly and at slow speeds if you wish. I'm no expert, but the first thing I'd do is take the engines off the track and wire them directly to the transformer, and see how they run. That should tell you if the problem is with the engines or some electrical issue with your layout. (That includes dirty track.) Seems unlikely that the problem is with your engines if every one of them is having a similar problem, unless (as Marty pointed out) all of them happen to have dirty wheels and rollers.
I imagine it comes down to a few things: Legacy has much better speed control, with a lot more speed steps. This translates to smoother and more precise operation. Also, I always found the CAB-1 to be crude and vague. Only 32 speed steps, relative speed commands with no detents? Phooey! Legacy operation with the CAB-2 is what TMCC should have been in the first place.
Most Legacy diesels with two vertical motors have BACK-DRIVABLE GEARS. Circa 2009 Lionel went to a lot of trouble to redesign their trucks and truck-motor interface, and it pays handsome dividends. Dual-motor diesels with back-drivable gears will start smoothly and crawl from speed step 1. No more "lurch!"
Upgrading your locos from factory TMCC to the ERR Cruise Commander might help a little. ERR has 100 speed steps and doesn't rely on a tach sensor. If the two motors are fighting each other at start-up and you don't need all the pulling power, you could make a note of which motor starts first and remove the other one, keeping it as a spare. With a model-specific worm gear pressed on the motor shaft, you might eventually need it! (Motor replacement is another potential pitfall that was ameliorated in the LionDrive redesign.)
Bottom line, Legacy diesels usually cost a little more but IMO they have worthwhile improvements.
@Sams Trains posted:No, it does not require different wiring. You must ID your TMCC engines in a number from 1-7 on your legacy remote for them to work. If that does not fix your issue, let me know
TMCC engines can have any ID from #1 to #98.
@Ted S posted:Most Legacy diesels with two vertical motors have BACK-DRIVABLE GEARS. Circa 2009 Lionel went to a lot of trouble to redesign their trucks and truck-motor interface, and it pays handsome dividends. Dual-motor diesels with back-drivable gears will start smoothly and crawl from speed step 1. No more "lurch!"
Another major factor is the tuning that went into the modern Legacy speed control. I don't know how much happened in the pre-RCMC days, but the RCMC speed control loop is actually tuned to the drive train for each model, that explains why the low speeds of modern Legacy are so good.
The two engines that show in your video are both great engines from around 2000. I do now or have owned both engines and found them to be great engines. I still enjoy the engine specific announcements and feel the sounds are MUCH better than many later and current diesels, including many of the Legacy offerings.
All that being said, they will never run as smoothy as the Legacy offerings simply because of electronic improvements over the last 25 years
First, even with exact models, the speed control does not function the same in each engine so with even the slightest variation, one engine will begin to fight to maintain its speed thus trying to push or pull the other engine. This is really hard on the gears. I know because I created problems with one of my B&O EM1's due to running two of them in a lash-up. For what ever reason, while running the two EM1's together, I turned the sounds off and was surprise to hear the gears grinding from 30 feet away. Around 2002, Lionel created a fix to the lash up problem by putting in a switch which allowed you to cut the speed control off.
Second, I do not know how familiar you are with TMCC engines but it looks like from the video that you have not set the STALL speed. This procedure sets the engine up to start moving as soon as the red wheel on the CAB1 or CAB2 begins to turn.
Not sure if you are aware but you can use one TMCC engine as the lead and a Legacy engine as the second engine. The Lionel design allows the trailing Legacy engine to not fight with the lead engine.
Enjoy your new purchases but I would suggest you do not try to use them together in a lash up!
Happy railroading,
Don
I am with the "differences in cruise control" camp, but the reasons are a variation in track connection/ voltage in various areas of a layout. I find these differences also running 2000- vintage Atlas locomotives- the cruise control is just not as effective as the newer Legacies.
You're probably just discovering the different speed step curves Lionel used as TMCC-based Odyssey went through its different iterations as new models were introduced in the years before Legacy. Lionel went from a hockey stick-looking curve to a flatter one by the time the on/off versions were produced. I would recommend identifying your engines with the Odyssey on/off switch and try to keep those together when making a lashup.
The old CAB-1 was actually a pretty neat controller if one didn't crank it like a garden hose spigot. The velocity pot issued infinite relative step commands one at a time when turning it slowly, and in 5 step increments when cranking it. The speed step limitations (and speed curve distributions) were bound to the motor drivers of the day, not the CAB-1. The relative step commands issued from the CAB-1 were why TAS and ERR could make motor drivers with 100-128 steps.
In a pure (no Legacy base) TMCC environment, ENG IDs are from 1-99. 'ENG 99' is Legacy's reserved address for an 'all engine' command.
@Diego posted:I recently started acquiring TMCC diesels but none of them run well on my layout. My layout currently runs legacy fine which makes me very confused. I use CAB1.
Define "well" and "fine".
What specifically isn't up to your expectations with TMCC?
Here are some examples:
- Won't roll when the knob is turned, at all.
- Won't roll when the knob is turned, immediately (delayed).
- Doesn't start moving smoothly (jerky).
- Headlight flickers when sitting still.
- Headlight flickers while moving.
- Hesitates (surge or stumble) while moving down track.
- Stops unexpectedly.
- Just sits and buzzes.
- No chuff.
- Chuff not synchronized.
The full list is much longer.
Mike
@DGJONES posted:Second, I do not know how familiar you are with TMCC engines but it looks like from the video that you have not set the STALL speed. This procedure sets the engine up to start moving as soon as the red wheel on the CAB1 or CAB2 begins to turn.
Don, the stall speed is not used with cruise enabled for obvious reasons. With cruise, the engine should start to move on the first speed step.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Don, the stall speed is not used with cruise enabled for obvious reasons. With cruise, the engine should start to move on the first speed step.
John, I know that the need to set stall went away with Legacy but I believe it was needed on any TMCC engines even if they had cruise.
I just checked the owners manual (which was printed in 2000) for the CP SD90 Mac that I still run and on page 16 under "Trainmaaster Command operations", the "Stall" section starts of with "Make your SD-90 feel more responsive by setting the "stall" voltage". The directions then follow.
I also checked the manual (printed in 2005) for my TMCC Cab Forward which has Railsound 5 and instructions for setting the stall are included on page 24.
I think I have found that my TMCC engines do operated more smoothly if I take the time to set the stall.
Happy railroading,
Don
@DGJONES posted:I think I have found that my TMCC engines do operated more smoothly if I take the time to set the stall.
Don, a TMCC engine with Odyssey enabled start moving at the very first speed step. There is no "slack" for the stall to take up!
The reason it's mentioned in the manual is the miracle of cut-n-paste, you'll find lots of stuff like that in the manuals. Since it's used without cruise, and a lot of TMCC engines indeed came without cruise, it makes it into all the TMCC manuals.
Try it with an Odyssey equipped TMCC engine, I think you'll see what I mean.
'Stall' (set/set) and max speed (set/boost) worked as a speed step remover for Odyssey engines. You could pretty much set them to give yourself one speed step if you were crazy enough.
In Odyssey engines with the on/off switch it would work much like it was intended with Odyssey off (a duty cycle step remover).
Interesting Norm, why in the world would you want to do that? 32 speed steps wasn't enough in any case! 
