PS3 Weird Stutter; Engine stops dead, no smoke & warranty service? Update!

Well, taking the tender shell off shouldn't void the warranty, they tell you to do that in the manual for getting at the battery.  OTOH, anything's possible.

I would think the same would hold true for the shell, as it has to be removed to replace lights.  FWIW

Thank you for the replies and thoughts on the subject John and Cheryl.

I really hope to not have further issues with the engine that require testing MTH's warranty policy, but it's great to get some objective opinions.

I ran the engine another couple times with no repeat of the 'studder'.  That leads me to think the blue wire must have been the offender and that maybe it's inability to move freely enough was causing it to bind and perhaps iterrupting or stressing the contact point on the engine's drawbar plug connection end.

I forgot to mention this Pennsy engine is also PS3, so no battery in the tender.  Still your thoughts on shell removal seem reasonable (not like we're talking anything terribly invasive), but it did make me wonder if I was crossing some kind of line.  After I had pulled the tender cover to check for signs of heat damage previously, I figured...in for a penny in for a pound.   Otherwise I would have probably asked before opening them, and again hopefully I won't have to find out for sure

Thanks again,

Robert

Ugh!...as Charlie Brown would say, now I have a new problem.

A brief recap...my PS3 Pennsy 4-6-0 was giving an intermittent stall with a 'studdering' type noise when running.  I took the cover off the engine, noticed that when the new style PS3 drawbar was swung from side to side, the blue wire (that I think has something to do with the smoke unit??) moved a bit compared to the other wires that meet at the drawbar connection.

I loosened it a bit from the bundle of drawbar wires, so it could move more freely, and this seemed to resolve my stall & studder.

Last night, while running it for only about the 3rd or 4th time since doing this...

it ran a couple laps, running normal, smoking like a banshee, then it came to a dead stop, light went out, and it stopped smoking from what I could tell.

It would not respond to throttle commands, it was still playing its idle sounds, and the horn and bell could be activated, but it would not move.  So I power down, unplug and replug power to the track...light comes on, smoke comes on, sounds and everything, then I hit the throttle, it doesn't make it a 1/4 loop on my small 4x8 layout, and does it again...

Dead stop, light and smoke unit both go off, and all you get is idle noises, sounds play with DCS Remote Commander button presses, but it will not move in response to throttle button.

So I remember reading something about the blue wire having something to do with the smoke unit if I remember correctly, and I recall member 'GGG' advising someone during diagnosis to turn the pot off on the smoke unit (I think they were trying to confirm a 'bad' smoke unit)...so I turn the smoke unit pot CCW all the way to off...unplug & replug track power, and it runs and sounds normal.  it made several laps without any issues, bell, horn, PFA, direction and throttle all responding.

So I guess to make this 'long' post shorter (sorry about that), do you think I have a smoke unit going out or could it still be a problem with the 'blue wire'?

Guess I may be looking at sending this to MTH, but wondering if there is anything else I should try since I've already taken the cover off the engine once to check the wire routing or just bite the bullet and sent it for service? (engine is only ~3-4mos old)

Thanks for any thought y'all can offer?

Robert

I think at this point I'd send it back!

Thanks for the reply John!  I'd have to agree, that seems like the most logical next step.  I really enjoy running my PS3 SD70 which has performed flawlessly, but there is something about these little chug&puff steamers that will make it hard to do without for 1-2mos....

So I bought a Williams FA-1 LNE AA set this weekend to help pass the time

I think it is best to go back since it is under warranty.  Maybe the smoke element is shorting when it heats up.  Let us know what MTH finds.  G

Thank you for your input on this one G!  I researched some threads here referencing the blue wire and smoke unit issues, that i believe you were part of, which is where I got the idea to turn the smoke unit off via the 'pot', and am pretty sure it's some component of that as it ran fine with the smoke unit turned off.

I'm glad to have the objective insight guys...no need for me to try tackling this, especially given it's well within warranty, and risking the possibility of ending up over my head.  I'm sure I'll have plenty of opportunity to learn more about working on these trains as I grow in the hobby.  Thanks again for y'alls advice...it's going back to MTH, and I'll be sure to follow up with further info and results from MTH Warranty Service

Robert 

The blue wire that goes to the drawbar is the "signal" wire. There's a PS3 board in the boiler and a main PS3 board in the tender. The blue wire is what's used for communication between the 2 boards. If there's a loose fitting on that wire down around the drawbar fittings it would cause stalling..as the boiler board won't be receiving any communication from the tender board. I've seen wires that have already broken down in the drawbar fittings..I just extract the contacts and crimp on a new one.  

Thanks for the reply and info Chuck!  That's the spot that concerns me, just as when I first took the shell off the engine.  I should have looked closer at where the blue wire ties into the engine's drawbar connection/plug, as I think it may not be routed cleanly.  Just strange that it's the only wire out of the group that wants to move as much as it does when the drawbar swings back and forth.

My guess is they might have mis-routed it such that it wraps around another wire or two at the engine drabar plug causing extra tension on the wire, its plug, and the excess movement.

Your proposed solution makes sense, and reminds me of how you replace stock wiring harnesses by recessing the 'tang' in the plug, pulling the wire connection out the back and reseating a new or repaired wire with connector.  However, there's still the question of why turning off the smoke unit POT would cause the stalling to go away.  This makes me think the stalling problem and/or the blue wire must be related to the smoke unit circuit if the problem can be isolated from operation by shutting it off.

As tiny as these things (wires, plug, and connectors) are, and since it's still well within the warranty period I'm gonna let the pros at MTH handle the 'micro-surgery'...my eyes haven't been the same since I passed 40

Nonetheless I do appreciate the info.  I've spent countless hours I'm sure reading about upgrades and tech issues on the newer engines it seems, and I'm just getting started.  I'm sure it will all come to use at some point...hopefully not sooner than desired

I probably should wait and call MTH before posting this, but I'm livid.

I received my engine back today, and I work nights so I just got a chance to open the box.  I found a service invoice that reads,

"No problems found. Track tested  feature tested  All OK"

That's it?  I know this engine has a problem.  Likely as suggested a poor connection.  I tested this engine over and over, and tested my SD70 Railking and my WBB conventional engines on the same loop before deciding to send it in for warranty service.  I had absolutely no trouble with any of the other engines on the same setup.

However this engine repeatedly first started stuttering at random points on the track, then it eventually began stalling.  Redacted

from post on 4/28/13

Last night, while running it for only about the 3rd or 4th time since doing this...

it ran a couple laps, running normal, smoking like a banshee, then it came to a dead stop, light went out, and it stopped smoking from what I could tell.

 

It would not respond to throttle commands, it was still playing its idle sounds, and the horn and bell could be activated, but it would not move.  So I power down, unplug and replug power to the track...light comes on, smoke comes on, sounds and everything, then I hit the throttle, it doesn't make it a 1/4 loop on my small 4x8 layout, and does it again...

I could not be more disappointed.  I'll setup some track and test it this weekend (had to disassemble the table in the guest room as my sister was in town last weekend), but I would be amazed if it 'healed' itself.

Even more discouraging was the fact that I took the time to write an explanation of exactly what had been going on with the engine, put it in an envelope, taped it to the side of the engine's retail box...and it was never opened or touched. Redacted

Probably should have slept on this and waited to find out from MTH just what the "testing" involved, but I could not be more disappointed.  Not sure what to do now, and my intention is not to merely rant on MTH's Service Department...Redacted

Robert

EDIT 6/23/13: I feel I need to apologize for my comments regarding the quality of MTH's Warranty Service.  As of this date I was twice able to recreate the scenario where the engine did not malfunction at all, with smoke on and running on a simple 031 oval.  While I am relatively sure there is still an intermittent malfunction, I can now see how MTH's Service Techs could have found this engine to be functioning normally during testing.  I'm beginning to believe this could be an issue with the new drawbar, but cannot eliminate operator error at this point...more on that below.

MTH does have a room with a test track so they can run the engine around and test features.  G

Well, attempting to lay my poison pen down for the evening; I picked up the camera instead, and although a poor quality video it speaks for itself

Thank you for taking the time to read my posts G!  I do appreciate all the info, feedback and advice I've received from this forum.

I apologize to the forum moderators and members if the tone of my post from last night was too harsh...just frustrated with the situation.

Robert

I would send the video with the train for repair, Maybe ask for a new loco since they could not find/fix the problem.   Don

I am thinking mechanical binding or a loss of motor power.  It was hard to see but was smoke still running when it stalled, was headlight still on?

It was running fine at first, with good chuff and puff:-)  When it stalled first time and you pushed it, it immediately started to move in forward, which tells me the board did not lose power and reset to neutral or a restart.

I think you should call and ask for them to pay for shipping back and then findout what is wrong.  I would check continuity via draw bar.  One of the issues may be it ran fine on large diameter turns, but those tighter 31 curves are causing issues.

Are the axles fine, do the wheels rotate smoothly when you turn the motor flywheel?

If all the mechanicals are fine, and the harness and tether are good, then I would look at the boiler board.

MTH can make this right, but this does happen sometimes.  Ask them to test on small radius curves.

I ran into this with a customers Shay.  It ran fine on my larger radius curves and even on smaller curves if turning right.  Soon as it hit a left turn if stopped.

So now I test in both directions when troubleshooting and test post repairs, or use my inside loop that has the S curve:-)  G

You might try running clockwise.  Even the narrator in the TinPlate link said he thought it worked better on straight sections.  I agree with everyone else that MTH should fix this. That said, it seems if you can identify a specific operational environment which makes it better/worse, then you make a better case.

Thanks for the replies Don, G and Stan!  I know the lighting on the above vid is really bad so I'm charging the camera battery, and going to add some additional lighting in the room to make another video.

I re-ran the test I had done previously before sending the engine to MTH Service.

I turned off the smoke unit at the pot under the tender and the engine runs flawlessly lap after lap on the 031 Realtrax...forward, reverse with all feature button selections without any interruption in lights, sound or motion.  All this info and my receipt were in the envelope I attached to the retail box.  Unfortunately they never opened it.

I also ran it again with the smoke on, and instead of giving it a push when it stalls, I tried gently manipulating the wireless drawbar...not up & down as much as side to side, and doing so made the engine begin running again.  Each time the engine malfunctions the light goes out until a 'shutdown/startup' and power strip on/off sequence is performed.

G - the light on the engine does go out in the video, there is a tiny reflection of ambient light from the bell at the end of the vid, but the engine light does go out after each malfunction until performing the above restart routine.

I opened an 'issue' via MTH's Service Console on their website, as my night shift routine is not conducive with their early, half-day service hours.  I expressed my concern for the 'rubber stamp' quality of inspection and testing I believe my engine received [EDIT 6/23/13 In hindsight this comment to MTH was rash and made in haste...my apologies].

Sidebar: Redacted

I'm almost convinced (going back to my original post) that problem is the result of the stress on the blue wire (i.e. with the shell off and swinging the draw bar back and forth...as it would in turns...the blue wire moves excessively independent of the other ~5 wires that meet at the engine's wireless drawbar 'jack').

I believe the solution may be as simple as removing the strain on the blue wire by either removing it from the drawbar jack at the engine and untangling it from the other wires then reinstalling it in the jack (a micro scale operation I'm not comfortable nor possibly equipped to perform), or maybe even cutting the wire further upstream within the engine but away from the 'jack', then untangling it from the others and reconnecting the cut ends.

Redacted I'm hoping to hear back from them [MTH Service], or call them this week before I attempt a repair.

Thank you guys for all your advice and input.

Robert

PS sorry for another long post

Stan, you can't take the sentence out of context.  As I stated this was a customers engine and I test in both directions meaning left and right turns. Unless you are directing your comment to Making the Grade.  :-) G

Ok, so there is a restart sequence.  In the video it looked like you just gave a little push and it started moving again.  So with smoke off no problem at all still?  That would make me thing smoke fan, but it you get it to run again by moving drawbar, that is back to a wire issue at the engine end.  G

Yes.  Sorry I should have stated so but I was actually referencing your thoroughness in these matters to suggest he provide as much info as possible to MTH.  Apparently the failures occur with smoke on but not off but that was not sufficient.  IMO it would be useful to know if there is some directional (right, left, fwd, rev, tight vs. wide turn, etc.) mode that also affects it so that MTH might have a better chance of duplicating it. 

Maybe I'm oversimplifying this, but it sounds like a loose pin or wire on the drawbar connection.

I'm probably over complicating it with longer posts and overly descriptive details.  I do believe it's an intermittent loose connection (wire or pin), and believe it relates to the blue wire and where it connects to the drawbar jack at the engine end (as CRH described in the post on 3/30/13).

The blue wire that goes to the drawbar is the "signal" wire. There's a PS3 board in the boiler and a main PS3 board in the tender. The blue wire is what's used for communication between the 2 boards. If there's a loose fitting on that wire down around the drawbar fittings it would cause stalling..as the boiler board won't be receiving any communication from the tender board. I've seen wires that have already broken down in the drawbar fittings..I just extract the contacts and crimp on a new one.

The fix may be just as easy as he describes, but I'm not sure I'm equipped for the small gauge wire stripping and connector replacement.

Ok, so there is a restart sequence.  In the video it looked like you just gave a little push and it started moving again.  So with smoke off no problem at all still?  That would make me thing smoke fan, but it you get it to run again by moving drawbar, that is back to a wire issue at the engine end.  G

No special star-up sequence G.  It's just like in the fellow's tinplate video...power must be interrupted from the track for the light to start working again, and yes with the smoke unit turned off it has not malfunctioned.

That makes me think the blue wire may be a "signal" wire as CRH mentioned, and possibly its specific purpose is the signal for the synchronized puff of the smoke unit.

I was actually referencing your thoroughness in these matters to suggest he provide as much info as possible to MTH. 

That's the shame of it Stan...as well as the major source of my frustration with MTH.  I provided these details and no one at MTH bothered to pay any attention to them...either in the details I gave to Service Rep on the phone or in the note I attached.  Redacted I also suspect their "track testing" did not involve test 'running' on a track, only powering up, powering down, and feature test [Please note post on 6/23/13 where I was able to recreate the scenario where the engine did not malfunction].  Given a fresh restart it will perform like normal (even with the smoke unit turned on), so long as you do not 'run' it around the track.  So yes the curves are the trick as well on this one, but it originally started doing this on my 042 loop, and this engine is designed to run on 031.

It malfunctions in CW or CCW directions on the track, although for whatever reason I do seem to run my trains in CCW direction most often...now that you mention it.

I'm going back and imbedding the youtube vid of that tinplate engine.  Mine is basically doing the same thing.  I tried the same fix he did (freeing up the routing of the wires), and it worked for a while but the problem returned.  That's why I think it is a matter of how the of wires come together at the engine end of the drawbar fitting/jack.  The jack pivots with the movement of the drawbar.  I believe the blue wire is 'wrapped' or bound up unnecessarily where the wires meet at the jack (picture  a wire coiled around other wires), rather than 'grouped' together.

This is where I'm probably not describing the suspected 'blue wire' issue well.  I'm going to take the shell off the engine and take a video to show y'all what I mean.

As always, thanks for the replies!

Robert

The blue wire in the tether is one of the connections to the tach reader on the motor, it has nothing to do with smoke.

John,  This is a PS-3 engine so your statement is not correct.  Even if PS-2 when the tach looses power the steam engine would only smoke in neutral.   G

Well, you're right again, I was thinking PS/2 here.  I have no idea what the blue wire does in a PS/3 engine.

My point about the blue wire in PS/2 was that I didn't think it matched the symptoms.  Obviously, all bets are off for PS/3.

John for PS-2 it still could, but the Fan motor also becomes a factor.  If the steam engine stops chuffing and puffing, and jerks then resumes it most likely is a tach related issues.  If isolated to the harness, it is one of three wires.  If the engine remains smoking in neutral at the stop point then gray is still good (drives tach and smoke fan). So it is either blue ground, or the orange tach return.  If you use a camera you can see if the tach LED is lite at the stop point, if not then most likely blue.  If it is then the orange return.  G

Makingthegrade,  I understand the venting.  All I can say is your guessing at what MTH did.  Their techs are pretty good and good guys.  They do have a process and forms that have to be filled out.  Did someone make a mistake or get lazy.  Maybe.

But I can just as easily tell you I have seen this before and symptoms can go away for a period of time.  And shipping can cause problems too.  If you call MTH they will fix this.   G

G - As John said, you are correct again.  Below is a new video of the second of two runs where the engine made several laps, initiated and completed all commands without malfunction.  I still think there is an intermittent issue here ranging from a loose wire/contact/connection problem, fan motor (as you suggested), or possibly even a problem with the new style drawbar.  I want to thank all the forum members who have commented and patiently read through my long posts.

I'm still hoping to get to the bottom of this intermittent failing, that goes from frequent to non-existent, and as Stan suggested earlier I just wish I could find the condition that recreates or eliminates the issue...I think having the smoke unit on or off is obviously one clue, and the info on individual wire functions is very helpful.  Again with you guys and MTH's help I hope to get to the bottom of it.

Question for the day:  What exactly does the bare metal rod attached to the drawbar do? Ground?

Hope the vid is okay as I allowed youtube to edit the shakiness.  Tried to put it through its paces with different functions to recreate the malfunction, so pardon the PFA sequence if it bores you.  I do not know what I did differently this time, other than gently manipulating the drawbar right to left.  Pretty sure it's not loose in the plug (up/down), and wondering if the bare metal rod on the drawbar is a factor.  I don't know if I'm getting closer to a resolution at this point or just more manic/depressive

I've got to say, when she's running right she's a great little engine.  I just hope I can figure this out.  As always, thanks to this forum for your time, patience and tolerance with my threads.

Robert

Sorry, another long one...

A long time has passed since I last posted an update on this issue.  After the problem continued and became more frequent, I boxed the engine up a couple months ago or more and just set it aside, discouraged.  That obviously was not going to do anything towards resolving the issue.

However, a fellow member's (Walt Rapp's) thread about his problems with the new drawbar tether inspired me to attempt to re-address my issue.  I thought I would post an update regarding my conversation with MTH Service today...I finally got around to calling them again.

It was a very productive call.  I described to Brian (MTH Service Representative) the problem I was having with the engine...

...to sum up, no issue with the drawbar coming loose, but some type of intermittent connection that caused the engine to stop and sounds, lights, everything to go dead.  The one thing I noted in my situation, with various testing, is that if I turned the smoke unit off via the POT on the tender, then the engine functioned fine, lap after lap.  Alternatively if I had the smoke on and wiggled the drawbar side to side (not up & down), the connection would re-establish and the engine would start working again [see first poorly lit video...I tried to 'enhance' it here via Youtube].

So I described this to Brian, who said he would transfer me to a tech in case they needed more information for repair purposes.  I spoke with Jeff (MTH Technician) relaying the info above, and also mentioned I suspected the blue wire that I mentioned at the start of this thread.

Jeff quickly surmised that I likely had a bad crimp on one of the wire connections in the harness, and that MTH is aware of such a problem with some harnesses.  He said my harness should be replaced and he transferred me back to Brian so it could be noted in the 'Return Authorization' information and Brain also issued a new, priority RA# (Thank you MTH!).

So the engine is on its way back to MTH again, and I am encouraged that they will resolve my 'pesky' PS3 drawbar issue.  I wanted to be sure to share this with others in case they experienced a similar situation (particularly the smoke on and off test that isolated the problem), and I also needed to eat some crow as it were because I was harsh on MTH in this thread due to my frustration.  I'm very appreciative of the professional and courteous communication today.

I know it's not fixed yet, but my fingers are crossed we might have this particular issue licked.  I'll be sure to post a follow-up.  Thanks again to all members and facets of this forum, because of y'all I'm not still sitting here just crying over spilt smoke fluid

Robert

Robert,

the "Jeff" with whom you spoke is almost certainly Jeff Strank, MTH Vice President of operations. If there's anyone who knows more about MTH engines, I have yet to meet that person.

You're in good hands!

My engine did the same thing, and looks like it is the same one.  It took my LHS a year to fix it as they tried many things to get it to work.  They even took it to MTH twice to get it resolved.  The ultimate fix was a new draw bar and engine side plug replacement.  

A way to see this issue is  to run the engine slightly elevated so the traction tire is not on the rail, hold the engine in place and let it run at 15 - 20mph wheel speed.  Then move the tendor back and forth in the air.  If the plug is buggy, you will likely see the unit shutter.  Also with the body off the engine, you can wiggle or press/pull the wires in the plug.  There should be no shudder with this, if there this the plug or bar if faulty.

Bill 

The other thing to check is the pickup wiring on the center roller.  On my SD70, they were loose and would give strange performance.  It would either short or momentarily lose power, thus causing studders or resets.

Thanks Barry!  I'm very happy to know I spoke to the right person.  Jeff certainly was definitive as to how the RA and repair (harness replacement) should be handled.

Bill, thank for the tips!  I probably would have tried something like this next...

Also with the body off the engine, you can wiggle or press/pull the wires in the plug.  There should be no shudder with this, if there this the plug or bar if faulty.

...but I'm thankful to still be within the remaining couple months of warranty so MTH can handle it for me.  Having to ship it back to MTH a second time was not my preference, so I unproductively complained and procrastinated, but I'm confident it's on the right track now.

I suspect a buggered connection on the engine to drawbar plug end of the engine harness.  This seems consistent with the need to manipulate the drawbar side to side, affecting the plug connection, to get it to start running again.

Fortunately I never had an issue with the plug becoming unseated up & down from the draw bar, but your suggested test of raising the wheels off the track slightly seems like a good approach for testing drawbar connection integrity.

Thanks again!

Robert

Jumper  both outside rails together  Maybe it's just your track???

I suspect that part might be important, they don't put those caps in for nothing!

Robert. Email Jeff Strank at MTH the photo you have posted here and insist they send you a mailing label to have the engine returned at their expense. I would also request a new engine at this point. If they do not want to replace it then insist he does the work himself. Make sure you relay everything you have told us here on the forum regarding what the engine does and does not do. Don't hold anything back as to how frustrated you are with the handling of this matter up to this point. I would also give your phone number and insist he call you. Since you work nights give him an appropriate time to call you.

Make sure to give him your full name, address, phone number, MTH item number and previous RA# if you have it.

If you do not have his E-mail address you can e-mail everything to me and I will forward it to him for you. My e-mail address is in my profile. 

Forest Zeiders

MTH ASC Technician

Wow!  Many, many thanks Forest!  I do not have Jeff Strank's email address, so I will gratefully take you up on your offer to forward the information for me.

I'll draft a clearer and more concise timeline of events going back to the start of this thread (April-ish), along with both previous RA numbers and the photo(s) I've posted here, along with what I 'expect' at this point & my contact information, and send it to you by tomorrow to forward on my behalf.

I really appreciate your assistance!

Robert McElroy

Robert, Your welcome. I feel your frustration.

Interesting thread and I am curious to see the outcome. I sent in Lionel Crop Tinplate 256 for repairs in August of this year and it is still listed as hold with no foreseeable repair completion date. I may never have that engine again so I am, like you, disappointed with the MTH repair program. Thanks for all the details in your posting.