Will we ever see a SD70ACe or ES44AC produced in plastic that is similar in quality to the Overland Models brass engines?

"There is no such thing as a perfect replica model of anything"

There is an acceptable reproduction of the prototypes, in the marketplace, i.e. - Gibson makes Les Paul Custom guitars, and Fender makes Stratocasters. There is specific tooling and materials that are used, over and over again, to manufacture these quality musical instruments.

GE Transportation, offers an Evolution series of locomotives; plus, other repeated models. They can provide numerous replica stock models or customize... for an additional charge.

They don't redesign a model every time they build a locomotive, for a customer.

A design is accepted, blueprints are created, the construction materials are acquired, orders are taken; and then, the manufacturing process begins...

So, when I place an order for a Black Les Paul Custom, with ivory colored trim... that's what I get - Humbucking pickups and all the other standard features.

Sure, there are knockoff manufacturers offering cheaper versions of a Les Paul Custom; but, most serious musicians pay the higher price, for the original high quality guitar.

Rick

If a guy wants a square, give him a square; not a triangle, hexagon, circle, or sort-of a square, just a square.

If a guy wants a square at a the price of a circle not many other folks are likely to bankrupt themselves trying to give it to him.  A few will pay for a perfect square at a perfect square price, they will have it and be happy.  Some will buy nothing and keep complaining about the lack of perfect squares at a circle price which is fine, since their favorite part of the hobby is finding a reason not to buy anything.  To each their own! 

I asked Mike Wolf about O Scale and he was candid about it.  They will continue to improve their tooling.  But improving the accuracy of scale is in the middle of the GaS list. Why?  Because the toy train market does not support it and they are the largest segment of their O offerings.  Spending money on scale tooling when it only ends up with customers buying WBB on price makes him think twice.  The European and HO markets demand accurate scale.  PS3 with DCC happened only because of those two markets.  The O market is perfectly happy with their proprietary control system and sorta scale models.

Lionel had been asked many times about 2-rail and they have made it very clear they do not support anything having to do with the 2-rail market.

rdunniii

You and I are hearing similar things.  Over time the engineering and production ability honed in the HO and European O markets will come back to benefit us.  But it will be a somewhat slow process since, unlike the period from the mid 90s to the mid 2000s, North American O is not the hottest market in the model train biz.

What can we do to attract more people and manufacturer investment to the 2 rail market? 

I am voting with my dollars.  All of my recent diesel purchases have been 2 rail.  And they have been of recently retooled models, either F units with correctly spaced axles on the Blomberg trucks or second gen six axle road switchers.

I'm also helping to plan and dispatch operating sessions that get a dozen or more guys at a time operating O scale trains in a realistic fashion.  Several of the people at those operating sessions are usually dads and school age kids.

And I've helped to show many young kids and adults, often younger adults, to operate O scale trains with their phones.  That seems to be a big hit.  Using the device that is already in your pocket to run trains reduces barriers to getting into the hobby and getting into realistic operation.

Based on my experience, I agree with those who have said that access to two rail O scale clubs, especially modular clubs, would be a great way to attract new people.  I also agree that to get more new people existing clubs have to think about having up to date scenery, operating practices and control systems.  Not many younger HO guys who have command control at home are likely to join an O scale club that runs trains with decades old control technology.

The guitar analogy is probably not the best one.  No two guitars sound alike.  I don't profess to be a serious guitar player, but one of my best friends has a platinum record, toured the world and chose his Les Paul directly off the line.  He rejected several until he found one that actually sounded the way he wanted it too.  His friend who worked at Gibson at the time told him that only 1 in 3 guitars off the line were actually good ones.  On the flip side, I have a $129 Samick Fender Strat knockoff that according to my friend sounds as good as any American Strat you can find.  A happy accident off the "cheap line".  Go figure. 

As an aside, my brother worked for Gulfstream for a number of years in the late 90's and discovered that the riveting pattern on several G5s were not per the plans because of a few people saying, "We've always done it this way".  I wonder how much of that goes on at EMD or GE these days?  Just curious.

Ted,

I'm in agreement... it's a money thing.

Jonathan, you know what I'm getting at...

BTW, in the mid 90's I bought a Samick 6 string electric guitar. I haven't used it in years, but I was thinking about, recently. There was a problem with the three way switch.

The other day, I was walking down the street, and I passed a music store. I decided to look inside and see if they dealt with guitar repairs... Turns out they have a significant guitar section; including, a trained tech...

I told the tech about my switch problem, and he said bring it in, anytime. As I continued on my walk, I thought... why not now, so I went home and got my guitar.

I had told the tech my guitar was a Samick, but, when he opened my guitar case, he was surprised by what he saw. He told me he though it was just going be a cheap knockoff, but when he saw it that wasn't the case.

I have a Samick concept and design, by Valley Arts Custom Pro Shop. A while ago, I was actually thinking about giving it away to a neighbors son. The tech said this is not what I thought you had; this is a really nice guitar and not a lot of them were made.

When I got home, I went online and looked up the guitars Samick produced, that were affiliated with Valley Arts Guitars Custom Pro Shop.

I'm still uncertain, re: the model name of my guitar. The serial no. is 5052022.

BTW, it turns out the switch just needed a good cleaning. The tech also gave the guitar a good cleaning and tuneup; including, adjusting the neck... at no charge. I gave him $20.00, for his efforts and generosity. I told him, that he made my day.

Rick

I think the perfect square at circle prices is the better analogy.  I like guitars, and own four valuable ones, but the analogy to trains eludes me.

Buy lots of MTH Train Masters.  Maybe that will convince Mike?  Or is that one not good enough?

bob2,  Guitars??  The analogy escapes me as well!  I wait to be illumined, on second thought, don't bother. I see no connection to model trains.

Harmon

Rick B.  What is it with you and brashing?  You've already expressed your opinion multiple times.  And as a fellow HO modeler would say "opinions are like A holes. Everyone's got one."  So lets get on with it, this is not about brass but about making a plastic model that is close to scale standards on the same level as modern brass models dedicated to 2 rail O scale are.  So now you suggest our trains should be made of steel have traction motors and next you'll ask they also run on diesel fuel.  On the traction motor part the closest to my knowledge was the Kohs GG1 with the traction motor mounted similar to the quill drive of the prototype.  The simple fact is that materials in models do not scale down well and these models/toys we play with are confined to what is realistically feasible. Can a steam loco in O scale run like the prototype=yes live steam.  

But regardless, these are not mainstream.  What is mainstream are simple things done in HO we are looking for but not typically done in high volume O products.

Frank's opening title - containing "is similar in quality"

If frank's just asking: could plastic cover the same bases, as Overland's brass models... probably, might even surpass Overland's efforts; should at least be able to match them; but,

If Frank's implying that Overland has set the benchmark, re:realism... I strongly disagree. I've already covered my reason's why, above.

You talk-the-talk, when it comes to expectations; and then, seem to settle for less...

After dropping more than 9 G's for your new models, it must be hard to accept that they're are anything less than - perfect O scale reproductions of the prototypes.

BTW, I am not a "modeler" nor do I have any aspirations re: modeling; that would  be tedious and bore me. I am a consumer. Sometimes, in certain circumstances, I look for the best...

Rick

62,

My guitar comments were in response to a poster commenting that no two models are alike. I merely gave examples of what are considered quality goods... certain Gibson and Fender guitars models. My Samick response was for Jonathan; after reading he own's and likes a Samick guitar.

I agree, I didn't do a good job at making my point re: the 310 and 145lb football players, but I was too lazy and busy to make the appropriate changes.

Personally, I've spent much more than Mike's new Overland models cost, on my model trains. I started with traditional equipment and then moved over to RailKing and later Premier hi-rail and scale wheels, Atlas O Masterline and a few Lionel ACe's. My wife thinks I've dropped approximately $35,000.00 to $40,000.00, since entering the hobby in 2004.

Somewhere, along the way, I became dissatisfied; things like hi-rail gaps etc just weren't/aren't cutting it for me. I've purchased a number of Premier scale wheels models, but they never really "hit the spot", so I got rid of them. Considered selling everything more than once, but haven't followed through yet.

Currently, I'm trying a few smaller Premier scale wheels models, to see if that works for me. Still waiting for their arrival.

I knew coming into this hobby I have high standards, knew running in circles would bore me; but, I wanted some trains.

I've mentioned before, there is an innate admiration for the best... component to my personality. The supposed high end scale models seem to be the final thing left; I've tried everything else that naturally interested in.

I think I'm running on fumes, when it comes to model trains; making a last attempt to get back the spark, I once had.

I have been very candid, re: my remarks, on this forum; and, because they are genuine and not meant to be in any way insulting, I've stated my opinions.

I don't expect the Overland owners to be overjoyed; very few seem to take criticism well.

My standards are my mine, and I don't expect others to necessarily share my views, on these matters.

I stand by the comments I've made re: the Overland models.

Rick

Yes, I agree with you...not just locomotives, but freight as well: Trinity T Boxes, Trinity 34000g LPG Tankers, 65 foot mill gondolas (Trinity, Greenbrier, etc....take your pick), 30000g Ethanol cars (correct design and scale Lionel!), 73' Partition Flats(com-on Atlas! I've been asking since 2006), ACFinc and Gunderson Grain Hoppers, Plate C Boxcars....my list goes on. Is anybody there? Is anybody listening to our call? Can you hear us at all?

Mike, couldn't agree more!

I would love to see a company like Exactrail make the jump to O scale.  Their attention to detail is amazing, just imagine what they could do in O.  Although it has been rumored that they have given this some thought, I don't think we will ever see it come to fruition.

Until then, I will buy their Ho versions, and try to replicate them in O, because I think Modelling is fun.  Also keeps me outta trouble 

-Paul

Paul,

Exactrail has very nice products.  I visit their booth every year at Springfield, MA show.  I have a funny story about one of the Exactrail products. And this is not to put them down, they make great stuff but mistakes happen.  With one run of cars, can't remember exactly which one,  the end details were mirrored during production and modelers ended up with a brake wheel on both sides of the model. hehe

Bob, you are to something there. Why not?

I don't know where the 9Gs is coming from, he paid $2120 delivered for each of them as did I for my 6.  And I am very happy with them all and do not agree than there is anything else available that comes close to their fidelity and operation.  But they are models, not the real thing and will never have the "presence" of the real thing.

Vaporware is just that.  And there is nothing that is not vaporware that comes close.  And if Overland does another run of 70s I will purchase more as well as ES44s if those are done.  As I am able to find Overland models of things I get rid of the Lionel or MTH ones I got when there was nothing else available.  But, to flip the coin I got rid of my Key F3s because I think the Lionel shell over a PD hobbies drive is superior.  But that's because the Keys are all done as modified over the years and the Lionel's are as delivered.

I'm happy I'm not a steam fan because $7500 for one Key cab forward... now that's expensive, and it's not a perfect replica either.  As has been said above some things do not scale well.  And the rumor mill has it that if Kohs actually produces the UP turbines they will be over $10k a copy.  And if there were ever sticklers for perfection it's George and Gary Kohs and yet nothing they have done so far that I have checked out is a perfect replica.  In some cases the oops are really noticeable too.

NWSL has had their Magic Carpet in truck drives for years.  They suck.  Electric motors are one of those things that do not scale that small well today and they can barely move themselves much less a locomotive pulling something.

I don't play guitar I play drums and keyboards.  As someone who used to own a Noble and Cooley set of drums, which are the best in world, I got rid of them and replaced them with a low cost Pacific birch set which everyone in every group I have played with thinks are the best sounding drums they have heard.  Because sound is the only thing that matters.  And no two acoustic pianos sound or play the same.  Not Bosendorfers or Steinways which can go for well over $100K.

rd,

For me, I got tired of models that lacked what I was looking for, and making allowances...

I don't know if my enthusiasm for model trains would have lasted, even if I got exact scale copies, of the prototypes. I am still looking forward, to the GP35's I ordered, though.

I might even be getting a scale wheels N&W 2-8-0 Consolidation; never had a steam piece, besides the traditional equipment I started out with; I was a diesel and electric locomotive guy.

Re: the guitars, I picked Gibson, as an  example, because most of my favorite players, back in my youth, did some of my favorite work, using a Les Paul model.

The warm crack of those guitars, stood out to me.

Rick

Somebody said repeating opinions is not a good thing.  I agree.

Let me assert the following as fact.

One - One cannot exactly duplicate a real locomotive in model form, at least in O Scale.

Two:  Brass is a very good modeling material for low quantity models.

Three: A plastic duplicate of Overland's SD-70 (or whatever it is you guys want), if quantities are not significantly higher than those Overland produced, will cost more than brass.

and Four:  The market for high quality 2-rail plastic locomotives is not there, this thread notwithstanding.

I stand ready to be proved wrong.

One of my guitars is a Gibson ES-175 from about 1955.

Back in 72, my friend was playing his Black Les Paul Custom, through his Marshall double stack, in our living room. My mom and sister were part of the audience; the neighbor called the cops.

Actually, had a few visits, by police(noise complaints), at different residences, during those years. What we didn't have we rented. Some of the equipment was pretty good.

I'm not much of a player, but I had fun. A few years later, my girlfriend's brother was in a local working band, so I was familiar with their equipment... The lead guitarist had a beautiful white Les Paul Custom.

Some might not think highly of these Gibson models, but I do... my favorites.

Sometimes, when I started to get into more expensive trains, I used to compare what the trains cost... to a Les Paul's price, at that time.

I think you're right, re: no. (1), Bob; but, I don't think it really matters. Willing and able customers, are on the decline. I don't see a bright future, there.

Rick

Before train, guns and woodworking tools were two other interests of mine. Both, like guitars, could be expensive interests to pursue. When I think of the tools, or to a lesser extent firearms, I could have purchased - for the money I've spent on trains...

My trains have definitely been my most expensive hobby. I've never been one to hold onto material things(emotionally), once their time has passed. Often, I just want to get rid of the stuff.

For some reason, I thought trains would be with me... into old age. That's probably why I spent as much as I did, building up my collection.

Rick

Mike,

Thanks for the address.

Ed

1)  While my abilities in the French language are limited -- mauvais would be a good French word to describe it -- I understand the language well enough to read

on a French model rr forum 0 scalers bemoaning the lack of accuracy of those MTH French steamers, due in part to the compromises necessary for the three rail market;  sound familiar ?

 

Zut alors!  And yet it is the largest selling MTH O scale steam locomotive ever.  How would you suggest that a business evaluate that kind of market feedback?

1.  And how do we know that it is the best selling MTH 0 scale steam locomotive ever ?   Because MTH has said so -- therefore, it MUST be true, as they would have had absolutely NO reason to, ah, bend the facts. 
    It is unusual for a steam locomotive to be offered in three [ or five if one counts the grey and unpainted ] very distinct color varients, in both scale and tinplate versions, and with a new DCC system, + the car sets that go "only" with the loco [ well, by MTH ( and Rivarossi's ! ) standards ], so crunching the numbers appropriately could [ or would, if you prefer ] give the desired outcome.

2.  Obviously, feedback like that, IF it is evaluated at all, is done so in conjunction with lots of other inputs.  Even if it is evaluated of course management is under no obligation to follow the results.   Mike Wolf could get out of bed one morning and decide to enter the N gauge market.

     I am amazed, given the size of the French market, that MTH is going to make a 141P in both scale and TP versions.  My own theory is that Mike likes visiting

France -- or something like that.

Best, SZ

Interesting that Swaffords Topic starter is actually going to happen, Sunset is looking to produce the Budd RDC cars in plastic at a lower market price than their original run of these cars in brass[nice but not up to the level of the Division Point models] the pics shown in Sunsets ads are of the original brass models[ I have been told as the actual production tooling is probably dependent on reservations]Original list price has been lowered to gain reservations, if they are made it will be interesting to see how well the detail level, the currently being delivered FP7s are looking good.

http://www.sherwoodelectromoti...rEhbwCFRCUfgodvnAAYA

Maybe, these guys could...  "Sherwood Electromotion  has solutions to meet any traction motor service requirements and is able to offer special programs"

You don't need an on-board power-plant(prime mover), the track feeds the traction motors, in O. I don't buy the - it couldn't be done... too hard... Who's actually tried a prototype-like setup?

That would be something - having a real welded steel, traction motor equipment, high end scale model; the pinnacle... of all scale modeling. That truly would be the best.

http://www.railpictures.net/vi...id=461043&nseq=3

Rick

Um,

Perhaps the North West Short Line Magic Carpet???

Rusty

Is the dark looking component a traction motor, as well, just mounted upside down?

The truck side frames don't do anything for me. My old WP Lionel traditional U36B, had a single motor installed in a plastic truck.

I was trying to determine the actual size and weight, of a real AC traction motor, when I came across the Sherwood site.

I had the feeling, that someone else must have considered...

I was thinking - instead of making all the components yourself, there must be established subcontractors/manufacturers, that already have the expertise to create the various components, a model train manufacturer would need...

Like the prototype locomotive builders - components and modules, are often manufactured, by sub contractors, and later, the locomotives are assembled, at the locomotive manufacturer's site.

Rick

I have a gas electric powered by a Magic Carpet drive.  Though it runs ok it is far nosier than any horizontal single motor or dual China drive locomotive on my railroad.  Adding to the issues the exposed spur reduction gears pick up any fuzz or crud that they come in contact with.  John Armstrong had a similar gas electric on his railroad with not so many hours on it, a motors died.  Carpet drives may be best for a light duty trolley.

Back in the mid 80's Key imported brass RS3's with under floor drives.  Each axel had a small HO sized motor connected between the axels to the gearboxes.  They ran ok but noisy and due to the low power of the motors, one couldn't add much weight to the bodies for added drawbar pull.  Key dropped the design and went with single horizontal motors in follow-on O scale diesels.  

   I'm not closed to the notion that something better won't eventually come along, but meanwhile I've got a railroad to run and I'm not getting younger.  Fortunately we have excellent diesel drives available in "mass" produced models, most recently the Sunset FP7.  There is no reason that drive train architecture couldn't be offered in a modern plastic hood diesel -  if Scott got enough reservations.

Ed Rappe

Serouiusly now...  Do you believe that Overland or whomever makes everything from scratch in their own facilities?

Rusty

Yes.  There are 2 drive units mounted in that truck.

Sideframes are for a trolley/traction motor.

Really limited in pulling power, but quite suitable for trolley and traction drives as long as they are not overloaded - that latter condition seems to be common since too many folks have unrealistic expectations. 

Can be somewhat noisy, but not always so; concerns exist regarding the open gearing as well but keeping the right of way clean and clear does help.  But, I believe that they may be the only under the floor drive units being marketed in O scale right now. 

Could not agree more I believe thats the direction Sunset is heading after the FT units,at least thats the talk I have heard hopefuly so.

Hello Martin,

When I'm watching... it's the engine(s) I'm concentrating on; maybe, the first few cars, too. I wouldn't be too concerned about moving long trains.

As you can see by my input, here, lately, I have specific tastes...  I'm wondering why someone(manufacturer) hasn't raised the bar, and built a real trophy winner.

I see so much undeserved ego, in this category of the hobby. Guys cranking on hundred dollar builders, and, at the same time, taking bows for mediocre equipment.

Some think it's too difficult... to use actual steel, for various parts, i.e. the hood-work. Surely, there's got to be some highly skilled fabricators(companies), that specialize in small steel component fabrication; including, precision welding(they probably use bots), that could get the job done?

Electrical motor manufacturers, should be able to easily supply - reliable scale sized traction motors, just give them the specs...

We're talking about the big league, here; where the best is supposed to take place...

I haven't seen that, yet.

If you have to build new specialized machines/tools... to get the job done, properly, then, that's what must be done, to deliver... a true masterpiece. The best!

Rick

Ed R.,

Somehow, I missed seeing your post, I just found it; thanks for the input. I'm not getting any younger, either; I'll be 60, in October.

Seems the older ya get, the more settling(accepting...) takes place; but, do you every really accept things you don't really care for?

Rick

Rick, I would guess cost.  

It's time to tune out of this thread and do some actual model railroading.  I'm putting a Tsunami in a Key H9s. 

Ed Rappe

Mike,

Wouldn't you be willing to, at least once, put the money you paid, for your new Overland model's, into the type of full package piece, that I'm advocating?

A while back, I actually mentioned - using, amongst other things, real steel and having working prototype-like electric traction motors - one per axle.

From what I recall - working with steel, seemed to be an insurmountable task that was considered far too difficult and, nobody had, at at point in time, tried replicating prototype propulsion(using electrically fed traction motors, one per axle...)

Some of you have sunk considerable sums of money, into your models, so the money seems to be out there.

Earlier, you made a comment about quality over quantity; that's what this would be.

The model could even rust, if you wanted it to.

I've been pretty black or white with this topic, because I don't feel anything else would provide complete satisfaction. Think of it... "complete satisfaction".

An accurate, reliable, working O scale model.

Make the M.U. hoses functional, too(connect the coupled locomotives hoses, and that would allow for M.U. operating).

At least, a lot more could be done, to create a more realistic model.

Rick

RE: making a high quality plastic model -

all the features I'm proposing, probably could be used with a plastic version; the only difference being a plastic body, instead of steel.

Rick

I believe a model with the amount of Detail Rick.B is talking about is achievable but i doubt we will see any manufactures make them due to cost as some other members on this forum have stated in here.

If we see any locomotives with this level of detail made, it will be from someone scratch-building it with hand tools. and the reason i think it is possible is from seeing this photo of this aircraft built, and it was done by someone scratch-building with hand tools.but also as a side note with the modern stuff it is almost impossible to find any blueprints so one would have to do a ton of research and drawing up dimensions from photos and etc.

as for the traction control, not sure about that... what about little stepper motors used? they might have the torque to run a engine?

Hi Bob,

I took up painting, a little while ago, using some left over acrylic paint. I'm pretty happy with the first picture, a fall scene. I didn't have to perform any real difficult clean lines on that masterpiece, so there was not a lot of painting over things that I just didn't like.

My second picture is a street scene, from a looking down perspective. So far, I've gone over one particular corner of the scene, many times, because it's just not to my liking.

At first, I tried using painter's tape and a ruler, to help with the straight, clean lines, but quit - it's like cheating. Sometimes, freehand, I can get a nice clean edge and other times... I paint over the failed attempt.

When it works, though, I get more satisfaction, doing it free- hand.

Sure, steel is harder for most hobbyist; but, for the pro's... it's just another day at the office. You and I both know all sorts of convoluted and difficult things gets successfully manufactured, all the time.

Re: the scale traction motors - I don't see a problem, and the results would make a real locomotive fans day. Come on... scale wheels, with realist looking, functioning traction motors; that's about as good as it gets, right there!

Any guy who actually had a model like that would be the envy of the flock.

What kind of sissy is afraid of a little manly rust; rust is cool. I guess you'd just have to make sure you looked after it well, just like any other rustable vehicle.

I've seen all sorts of Flintstones-like drives, and guys swearing by this rubber band and stomping on that caged wheel. Have you ever seen that in a real locomotive - of course you haven't. It's toy technology...

Ya Bob, I can see you're perking up now...

BTW, I like wood and brass woodworking tools; has a nice look to it

Rick

KC,

Thanks for covering my back; good example of talent.

Rick

John,

You forgot to mention actual working M.U. cables, wired to an electronic control module. Instead of just having those fake looking cables, just hanging down - lifeless, now, they could actually connect to another compatible model, and control the units.

That would be something!

Maybe, featuring a longhood, with opening bay doors, that exposes a realistic looking prime mover, featuring a speaker and a multiple speed vibrator(like those found in cell phones), that vibrates the isolated prime mover, in sync with the audible revs.

BTW, this model would be a luxury item, with a luxury item price tag. No different than exotic sports cars, custom bikes, expensive boats, private aircraft... Some have the means... to enjoy the best life has to offer.

Rick

Rather than do all that, why not just commission one model?  Write the specification, send it to Kohs or somebody with some experience, and have one model built.  A proof of concept model, all hand built?

I do not have the skill to do that kind of model work, but if I did, I might be able to do the superstructure for under a hundred grand.  I do not believe the mechanism you want is physically possible beyond the magic carpet style.  Expect to pull no more than three cars with those tiny spur gears.

Just let us know when you get the retail price determined.

Rusty