Will we ever see a SD70ACe or ES44AC produced in plastic that is similar in quality to the Overland Models brass engines?

Frank what price range do you think they would have to be inorder to get people to buy them???

No, because the folks who spring for multi- thousand- dollar models look for the quality of metal models.  On the other hand, if you look at the MTH Train Master, you might find that the 3-rail Scale folks have forced something fairly close in plastic.

It takes mass production to do an injection plastic model, and the high end 2- rail locomotive market is just plain thin.  Note that the Lionel PS-1 box car is really close, but the 3- rail trucks and couplers force the departure from realism in the underframe.  A high-end version of such a car is now approaching the $400 mark.

This is of course opinion.

Not in lionel and when they do everyone complains about the price .

I don't know of too many situations where plastic and quality are mentioned in the same breath.

Simon

will we ever see a Ford or Chevy that is similar in quality to a Ferrari or Lamborghini

Define Quality.  Do you mean accuracy of detail?  Then no.  If you compromise accuracy of detail then I think Lionel does a pretty good job in 3-rail.  Because of that I doubt you will see them in 2-rail for many years because no one other than the brass folks can do 2-rail only and make a buck.  Folks like Atlas and 3rd rail have to do the 3-rail market in addition to the 2-rail market to be profitable.  Atlas had the opportunity 10 years ago before Lionel and MTH but that opportunity is long gone.  I'll be surprised if Atlas actually does come out with the Dash8-40C given MTH took the market away. 

Yes, define quality.    As an Industrial Engineer, I was involved at various times with quality programs.    Over the years, as we learned more, the definition evolved to "Say what you will do, and do what you say"   And the corollary was do it the "do it the same way every time".

In terms of our trains,  mfgs say they build O Scale trains.   OK the cars and locos should then all run on O scale track.   IE, all wheelsets should be in gauge and not wobble.   All coupler heights should be uniform.   All couplers should work.   All detail parts should stay attached under normal handling and operating conditions.   The paint and lettering should stay on unit and not on your hands.  Or it should just not flake off.    If they have lights, they should work.   Forward should light the forward light and backward the backward light - - etc.   To sum up, the thing should do what the mfg says it will do consistently.    Beyond that, every is "features".

One of our mfg who makes a lot spartan stuff (not much detail), is in my opinion a high quality builder.   Everything I have ever bought from them had wheels in gauge, and stayed together.   On the other hand, one of the other mfgs, who does much more detailed equipment I think is much lower quality.   I have had cars from this builder where the truck castings distingrated when taken out of the box.   I have had wobbly wheels.   I have had detail parts fall off.    Feature wise, the low quality builds prettier stuff in most cases, but it often does not do the job.

I think you should either buy the MTH version, which is excellent detail and accuracy for the money.  Or go for the OMI and pay the extra money for the superb detail.

We don't need an in-between version.

hey all, if one wants the "Superb detail", save a little longer and get the 1 OMI piece vs. several MTH / Lionel / etc...  i prefer that route.  less pieces but the pieces more closely represent the protoype (hopefully) 

happy new year all!

I would have to answer no, because what little I understand of injected molded "plastic" is, the manufacturer MUST make huge quantities of of each "run", in order to make any return on investment in tooling. With hand made, super-detailed brass models, steam, diesel, or electric, the small quantities are desirable, despite the $2000 to $4000 sell prices per model.

1.  If your question is taken literally, I believe the answer is 'no', because the marketplace has already spoken, and those prototypes -- unlike a, say, K4 or SD40-2 -- could be considered transitory.

2.  However, if your question really is asking if we will ever see plastic models as detailed as brass ones, using those diesels as examples, then I believe the correct answers are either "Possibly" or "We don't know".

   -  No one knows where the 0 gauge market as a whole is headed, let alone the different subsets.

   -  Manufacturing processes and labor costs will change over time. 

   -  Definitions of "quality" will change.  Plastic models are already being produced [ I'm not thinking of MTH here ] that are superior to the brass models of twenty years ago, and would be the equal of a current brass model.

    -  There is an unfortunate tendency to think of models as "brass" or "plastic" when the future may hold models that are a combination of the two.

        [ I've often -- well, OK, once in a while -- wondered that, to use an example, IF the basic MTH or Lionel diesel body shells were dimensionally correct there might be a sustainable market for a vendor, a la Midwest, to upgrade those both internally and externally to "brass" standards ? ]

      With best rgds, SZ

IF the plastic shells are accurate, there has been a large selection of detail parts to detail them out.    This has been true for years.    In the 80s, I took a pair of the Old Atlas/Roco F9s and made a pretty close PRR F7 out of them.   I shaved off all the cast grabs and railings and removed the steam generator stuff on the top.   I put on wire handrails.    I moved the front portholes on the side to the correct location and replaced the pilots with passenger style pilots ala PRR.   I also added trainphone antennas.   At the time, they were the most accurate and detailed plastic F units available.  

PSC, P&D, Des PLaines to name a few make lots of lost wax detail castings to customize most diesels.   It can be done today.

I like that!

I like that too! Never understood the need to have everything under the sun. Better one really good item than a dozen so-so pieces!

Simon

I am no rivet counter but do enjoy some obvious details that need attention to help fool the eyes as to what the models are. My biggest contentions were stirrups, grabs, anything that was fine details needed to present the model. That said I bring forth the engine work on a diesel, Thick cabs with sunken windows and number boards. railings, etched walks. door hinges,( brass is etched in and plastic is molded on). Vents need to be see through when possible and fans need to be an added feature. Get rid of the China drives. The drives would make an excellent change in plastic.  

I remember once buying a detail cab for my HO that were thin walled so yes it can be done. But it takes time and more money. Enjoy your MTH and Atlas models but don't get eyeball to eyeball with them. If you have ot get up close then start saving $$$

Phil 

Oh! i would like to see more Es44s produced in plastic. This waiting years for a rerun or a production run is silly and upsetting. Was nice in the ole days to go to the LHS and have a selection on hand. It would seem that any come on Ebay would sell for a premium just not having to wait and if.

Phil

 This conversation can get tough because we each have a definition of the question. Some want everything to look as real as it can humanly be and won't settle for anything less. Even the brass imports years back were not this good. Are those same guys selling off their older less detailed brass engines? Do they just run them when no one's looking?

 I hear a lot of talk about what each expects. All that is fine. Don't tell me what I should accept as your definition of quality. I have decided what price point I'm willing to spend for an engine that I'll run on my layout everyday. If my income was higher, so would be my choices of quality. Maybe some rich guys can't understand that reasoning??

 Now, again, I would buy 1 of these. It would be a reach and it would not be touched by anyone else. I would hate to think what would happen if it got in an accident on the layout. Disposable income has a different meaning for everyone. Maybe if a $300 to $400 dollar engine hit the floor, someone else would cry? I still would hate to think about even that. How much for a whole consist???

 A large quantity of engines on a layout does not mean you need them all. Don't worry though. Maybe some can get every one of these at their level of income.

  I like large trains stretching their legs on a climb. Maybe you can't understand that? Maybe one engine in a display case is your idea of model railroading? God bless us all. I'm just glad I have food sometimes. No sense in me defining what you should like or accept.

  But yes Frank, just look back a few years and see where they were.

Yes Swafford you can make one of those plastic models look as good as a brass model. The new MTH models are pretty darn good. ES44, SD70AcE, Dash 9's, and even the new Lionel ES44s are pretty darn good. Considering they are only $400-$500, that's going to be hard to beat. You can take those models, add a few extra detail parts, do some detail painting, and you're going to be real close for way less than half the money.

I'm sure it could be done, but not at what the current prices for the current MTH or Lionel SD70ACe's are. 

Every piece of free-standing detail has a cost associated with it, from raw material to molding/forming to stocking to assembly.

I figure around more like $1200-$1500 depending on road-specific details. 

Rusty

I have a pair of the E7s done recently by Sunset 3rd rail.   These are plastic shells with metal details.    I think they are pretty close to brass in detail.    Maybe the window frames are too thick, I have not noticed.  They do have all separate add on grabs and details.   They have a lot of "see-thru" grates and grills.    And to top it off, they have a SINGLE MOTOR drive with reduction gearing.  

These were aimed at about $500 price.   I think they migrated to 550 or more by the time they came in.   They are very nice for the price and include DCC and sound.

As these were in the works, I talked to the 3RD Rail representative at a few shows.   He told me that they needed about 1500 reservations to be able to make the units at the price (500 or so) they thought they could sell them at.   So they postponed build for about 6-9 months.    

That is the price/quantity issue.   The importer has to decide how many he sell at a given price and then see what he can build at that price (detail wise etc).    It is a tradeoff.    It was interesting to talk to Sunset about this.   

So will we see plastic as detailed as high end brass.    Well I think we could, but the price might approach high end brass too!    It can be done, but what will we pay for it?    I would not have bought the E7s for 1000 apiece, just my budget/opinion, but I love them at 500.   

As for the detail level, at some point, if the engine is operating on the layout, more fragile detail is a detriment.   I like to look at it, but I get a sick feeling when one of the guys breaks something off during an operating session.   I think a little less detail on locos aimed at operation is a good compromise.   On the other hand- in an eye-level diorama, all the rivets we can get are needed.

There are some of us who cannot afford the brass like the OMI pieces. If what Swafford stated could be done I would be all for it. 

But I am also pretty sure that the 2 rail community would not support a plastic model, the need for brass seems to be the only thing they buy. It's a shame because maybe we could draw some people into two rail. 

I would argue that yes it is possible to achieve brass like quality with injection tooling now.  The 3rd Rail E7s are good models for the price and very accurate.  They are not perfect because of the production numbers required, but in most cases road specific details were added where ever practical and necessary.  The add-on details are brass castings anyway.

However, the 3rd Rail FL9 in my mind is a true masterpiece of injection molded technology.  They represent a generational improvement over the E7.  I was so pleased with the scale fidelity and the operational qualities of the FL9 I ended up with five of them.  I am looking forward to the impending arrival of the FP7 to see that trend continue and the FT will be equally exciting to see come together.  60 percent of the orders for 3rd Rail diesels are 2 rail.

When it comes to modern power, there is a function of market and saturation.  3rd Rail needs to do two and three rail models to meet production numbers.  There isn't much close in quality on the F-Unit side outside of current Atlas production in plastic, but it would be a hard sell to bring out a series of locomotives that have been heavily produced in three rail recently since 40% of the 3rd Rail production goes towards that market.  The question on the two rail quality diesel is what is that niche locomotive that will sell about 1500 units total that two and three railers are looking for?

Having the opportunity to have both the MTH and the OMI, I can say without question the OMI details are far superior to the MTH.  MTH makes a very compelling product and at the normal 3-5' viewing distance it would be hard to pick out the difference.  However once you put them both side by side and compare differences viewing both at less than 12" you will clearly see the differences.  Product from MTH can be made come close to OMI but at what cost?  The real bastage would be to take the OMI drive and mate it with an MTH shell.  The MTH model is lacking in accuracy and detail at the pilot and chassis/frame areas.   While the OMI is very good, it also doesn't have all of the details of the 1:1 but will be the closest representation.  MTH at the current price point is fine but detailing can be improved.  Their GE offerings are in a much better position.

I disagree that the 2-rail community will not support plastic.   I know there are some 2-rail collectors out there who insist on brass and will not buy plastic.   However, I think they are a minority of the 2-rail O scale community.   

I think most of us just like good models built by whoever out of whatever.   The Atlas cars of the last decade are a good example.   They are well detailed and seem to sell out all 2 rail made in most runs.   The H21 hopper was super.   There is the issue with wide Atlas trucks, but even that is changing slowly.   I could not afford a fleet of these in brass, but I have all numbers made in plastic 2-rail.

I think all of us have had a fleet of Weaver plastic cars to fill trains.   I think plastic has replaced the old Athearn and All Nation kits as the basic building block of most operating fleets.  

We can thank the 3-rail community for providing a big enough market that we get these nice cars in plastic that keep getting better.  

I think the O Scalers that have operating layouts have no problem with using plastic cars.

I think cars in plastic are just fine but I think plastic locomotives and the numbers you have to produce to make the cost worthwhile. There is just not enough two railers willing to give up brass to make plastic locomotives IMO. 

I wish the opposite was true. 

+1.

     And I think the same holds true for locomotives.  There is just historically less variety in good [ either visual or operating or both ] plastic locomotives to choose from.  It's slightly analogous to asking why [ scale ] 3-railers don't buy more plastic steam locomotives.....

david1, how many 2-rail only 0 shows have you been to ?

SZ

What about diecast diesels with proper proportions in 2 rail?  Think Lionel but with proper 2 rail chassis.  Look at their ES44, from internet photos they look pretty good.

I would have to agree with the Lionel die cast, they are very,very good...just in 2 rail.  Plastic is getting pretty close as well in some cases.

 I know you've seen these pic's. Right Frank?

http://mthtrains.com/news/446

I really think to switch out the handrail mounting design and get any more detailing, they'd have to go to all brass. I feel like the level of paint alone, makes them a great value. I can live with the pilot differences and all the rest.

 If they did use a correct brass body and full correct brass details, what would be their drawback? They out pull other brands. They are smooth enough with their china drive. Oh yeah, you guys want the horizontal drives and full cab details. Get your wallets out boys 'cause the Lionel metal bodies aren't going that cheap now. Imagine if they change the chassis and drives???

 Didn't Lionel import two rail museum quality (for the time) years ago for higher dollars? Where they popular?

I believe the Atlas Trinitys are a prime example of how well a plastic shell body can be done to scale dimenisions with added wire and metal parts and still sell to both 2 @ 3rail markets, To do a Masterline diesel to this level of detail would push pricing of course, Sunsets are climbing in price while still maintaining the 2 rail/ 3rail models and they are talking possible SD units in the future. No production plastic model is likely to be built to match the handbuilt brass models and the detail so evident in high res close up photos[ not so evident when you take into consideration the 3' rule] It would appear that diecast is becoming very expensive, Check out the Atlas rerun of the 89' TT flats at 104.99/109.99. As a final note they are some superb HO models currently being done in plastic. Just an aside but fewer than 60 people actually bought out the Overland run I know of 3 who took 18 models alone and those will probably never hit the rails.JMHO

I have been to only a couple of local O scale shows and I liked them allot. 

As far as plastic steam locomotives go I say why not! would they be cheaper to build? I just don't know. Would people buy them, who knows. 

MTH did make gauge one steam locomotives from some sort of plastic so it could be done.

I did get some plastic Train Masters.  They will remain my only plastic O Scale models, no matter how good other plastic gets.  Not rational, but as far as I am concerned, the hobby is less than rational as well.

Are you really looking for Overland detail and quality at MTH prices?

Over the years, I've seen some pretty horrendous brass models by some importers.

Rusty

Jim B,

I assume the Sunset rep you referred to earlier is me. Let me shed some insight on what I hear from folks at the 2 rail shows specifically regarding Sunset's diesel offerings:

In order of importance the 2 railers have expressed three primary desires:

1) "I want horizontal drive in my diesels".

2) People want horizontal drive in their diesels.

3) "Make sure your diesels have horizontal drive".

I have never had anyone say they will not purchase Sunset diesels because of the plastic body. Although I am sure there are folks who feel that way and simply don't buy the product I have never received comments about dissatisfaction with plastic shells from Sunset.

As Jonathan, the fellow responsible for the graphics on the Sunset diesels posted earlier, each diesel model has had improvements. Where economically feasible, Scott Mann attempts to improve each new diesel with customer requested refinements.

I believe the future for Sunset / 3rd Rail diesels will be plastic shells with metal frames and trucks and horizontal drives. The E-7, FL-9 , and FP-7 offerings have proven to be successful (read profitable) for Sunset. Why change?