Will we ever see a SD70ACe or ES44AC produced in plastic that is similar in quality to the Overland Models brass engines?

Richard,  I will have to run tests with the various 6 axle MTH units I have.  I put MTH first with its slight weight advantage.  OMI with a drive/Spring chassis advantage.  OMI will likely come out on top if weighted the same as the MTH models .  Will run tests against MTH EMD SD70ACe and SD45T-2/SD40-3 and various GE C40-8W, C40-8 narrow nose, CW44AC, ES44AC/DC and ES44 hybrid.

I have a PSC SD-(7 or 9) and an MTH model of the same from the 1990s.  The PSC pulls better, but it is lower geared and has all six axles powered.  I could probably run some tests between the PSC and the K-Kine Train Master that has all axles powered and NWSL steel wheels.

 

I believe pulling power is related to only motor, gearing, weight, and driver material, and not at all to springing.  One can see that two ways - one: when a wheel leaves the track, the weight it was carrying is transferred to another wheel, and two: I build them both ways and my test loop is superelevated.  Springing is only important here with five or more steam drivers, and that is just to keep from climbing rails and derailing.

Probably not, because at some point, the fine details become to fragile to survive. MTH has even bitten the bullet on that one as more and more details on the Premier locomotives are etched brass or lost wax castings.

I guess an appropriate question to ask of this forum at this point is how many people would pre-order a modern diesel-electric with an injection molded body, horizontal drive with all wheels powered and add-on brass detail parts?  As Sunset's diesel line has evolved, they really are 2 rail designs modified to run on 3 rail layouts already. 

 

With such a saturation of the various modern EMD and GE products in the market place, is this a realistic niche for a company like Sunset to try to even get into?  Is there really a market for more of these models at a price point above what Lionel and MTH is offering, but below an OMI or similar priced brass competitor?  The bottom line is, "Would you pre-order one?" 

 

I most definitely would purchase some.  The details are where it's at for me, along with reliable performance. 

Sunset is already moving in this direction with their new line of plastic diesels, they are holding to a reservation system to determine market acceptance at a price point that works for them while improving detail level and performance. Pricing is a big factor for the 2rail/3rail market among the competing mfgs, it is far less an issue with limited run hand built models for a real niche market [collectors, modelers and those buyers regardless of scale who want that mantlepiece model] JMHO

 

Would totally order more variations of the SD70 and ES44 locomotives.  Also some GP38/40/50/60's along with some SD40-2's, SD40T-2's.

Frank , Good luck with this effort. I hope that Scott will try and move forward with this project.

Realisticaly weather its Sunset or Overland they have to continue to invest dollars with their builders to stay in business. As long as the production meets the builder requirement dollar wise [50 models or 500] unfortunately as the runs get smaller price per unit will jump substantialy.As their production runs have gotten smaller Sunsets pricing continues to rise, interestingly Scott has just reduced by 100.00 per unit his RDC run[to boost reservations,make the run feasible? take your pick] Upfront deposits may become the future for some importers.JMHO

I'm in for modern era diesels.

 

 

"Could" a plastic engine be that detailed? I'd say that it's possible. Then again it might take some metal detail parts to do it. I just don't know. Things just keep getting better and better. The $400-$500 price point is already at my limit though so even if it gets to that point, it'll be out of my price range. It is always nice to see detail levels and quality improvements in general though.

I think you better count on it. The fragility of details is what (my opinion) put Intermountain out of the "O" market. If there is a plastic out there robust enough to make really fine details, I'm betting it is prohibitively expensive. As for the $400-$500 price, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that what the Sunset E units were?

 

Simon

Intermountain was probably a goner because assembly was fairly laborious, and when you were done you had a featherweight, fragile model.  Some were happy with that, but most of us wanted heavier and more robust models.

Intermountain and Red Caboose discovered American train modelers would not assemble their kits, which is odd, because kids put together complicated airplane and military kits.  The matter of fragility of certain parts was easily addressed by replacing stirrups, grab irons, and brake lines with brass.  

 

On a different note, it shouldn't be all that difficult to produce modern diesel locomotives, pretty much all straight lines and angles.  Not a difficult curve anywhere.  I need to mention I grew up near the IC mainline and got to watch big steam every Sunday after church in Danforth, Ill.  Quite a show for a country boy.  Some of us old-timers get together late afternoon for coffee at a quickstop across from the same mainline which is now CN.  Half a dozen trains go by in an hour, nobody pays much attention - ugly unit grain trains that have been in need of paint for years.  Stack trains, car racks and Amtrak, (seven wienies and a brick).  Not so exciting, what is amazing, there are people who still like model trains.

I should have said " it is rather amazing young people would be interested in modeling trains".

Virtualy all new models are Hybrids, the level of fidelity to scale, amount of add on detailing and performance are all determined by what the current Mfgs/Importers believe their targeted market will pay, reservations are the key as to weather or not the model gets produced Sunset is already selling direct today for most if not all of their new products, Lets face it the market is 3rail driven in RTR plastic[hybrid] it will be interesting to see if a Mfg[Sunset/Weaver] would be willing to offer a more high end hybrid[obiviously a much smaller run at a higher price point] price would be driven by number of buyers willing to pay"ballpark" 700-900 range, bear in mind if Overland elects to do another Diesel think deposit and 3K price per unit asuming the 2750[lights etc UP model] represents the new current standard "per unit"you can't just own one JMHO

Short Answer, No.  The cost of dies and the potential sales and Suggested Retail Price.

 

Again, short answer - No.

I'll bet Pat Mucci from P&D would have a good idea of the tooling costs to produce a plastic Diesel, they are ones who did the beautiful F units.  These are still superb models today.

 

Everyones ideas on prices is different.  What would you be willing to pay for these SD70/ES44s you are talking about?  The 3rd Rail FTs are going to be $700 for the powered units.  That's for 500 units.  Most of the 3-rail folks are happy with the MTH and Lionel units.  So the number of 3-rail units will be low. So you could figure $1000+ for 3rd Rail units I see described here @500 units.

 

Scott does direct to keep the margins low.  Few dealers carry his things because of the lowered margin.  Overland did the SD70ACes direct for the same reason.  The preorder price was $2100.  The retail was $2500.  If there had been only dealer sales they would not have happened.  Pretty much every dealer I talked too had no interest in ordering them for only a $400 markup.  30% is about the absolute minimum they are interested in.  Most no less than 40%.  Brian knew he couldn't get any reservations at a list price of $3000+.   If that sound high remember the list price for the last Overland O Scale diesels almost 10 years ago was $2800.  And at that dealers backing out resulted in a large loss to Overland.

 

Overland's experience with backing out lead to the upfront and intermediate payments.  3rd Rail/GGD's recent experience with the '51 Super Chief will probably lead to the same thing.  This should not be a surprise or unexpected when 30%+ of your orders back out.

Actually the FTs are listing at 599.95 and unpowered units at 399.95, still 1000.00 for an AB set, An upscale SD unit aimed primarily at the 2rail market[priced accordingly] I am guessing would not exceed 200-300 reservations, less if a deposit was required.JMHO

Sunset/GGD has never required deposits although I know that some SS dealers have in the past. On numerous occasions I have had folks at shows ask me why Sunset/3rd Rail/GGD requires deposits and I reply "they don't".

 

After hearing "well, my dealer says you do" I tell them that is the dealer's policy - not Sunset's. I doubt we will ever see SS/GGD requiring deposits. However, Scott does keep a list of those who reserve and then don't purchase products. After a reasonable number of 'no show" events that person is not taken seriously when they want to place a reservation.

rheil, Thanks for your response.  Will GGD ever do the heavyweights again and possibly have a baggage car, RPO, and a combine?  The heavyweights are great models and happy to have them.

Not to disagree with you,  but the factor that you are missing is that the transition era modeler is an older person with gobs of disposable income for those models.    That's why Kohs can sell everything that he runs.

 

While not maybe as much as in HO or N, I suspect that Mike Pitogo's modern-era interests sell in larger numbers than my transition-era interests.   The deciding factor is that a younger fellow raising a family doesn't have disposable income we have.

 

As for plastic versus brass, durability issues aside, the San Juan Car Company's 0 scale kits have details that meet or exceed  the current state of the art in brass.

 

Not too many brass O scale brake equipment has lettering that you can read like SJCC's "W" logo and "Westinghouse Air Brake Wilmerding PA" on the brake cylinder. 

 

 

I think there is a misconception regarding age and modeling era.  I will be 45 tomorrow, but my preferred modeling era in two rail is 1954-1957.  I find that period to be fascinating with the transition from steam to diesel and the seeming perpetuity of electrics at that time.  For me, modeling outside of my experience takes me to a different place than what I see every day.  Of course this is different for everyone.  

 

I still also enjoy modeling from my childhood, but that has really taken a back seat to diving into the history that I was never a part of.

 

 

 

Harmon,

Indeed, there are plans to do reruns of the GGD heavyweight cars including diner, observation, and all three head end cars you mentioned. Maybe even a new sleeper configuration.

I think you're my new hero!!! Hmmm, I'm right behind you in age.

I still think I'm twenty something!!

Good Day Gentlemen,

 

I'm 60. My model era interest is 21st Century! What is running the rails right now.

 

Regards,

Frank

John and all you modern train aficionados,

 

What you like is, of course, what you like. That said, I stumbled across a show on RFD TV (a channel the Satellite gods have recently bestowed on Dish) called Trains and Locomotives.  It was/is basically a modern "Rail Fanner's" delight as it was a continual series of shots of trains running in various parts of the country. (Time frame was roughly 1995 to 2005)

 

There are NOT a lot of "train watching" opportunities in my neck of the woods, so I watched this show with interest.

 

What I saw was a bunch of equipment that was so homogenized and drab, that I could have switched channels after about 5 minutes. The great bulk of the freight was monotone plain old rectangular cartons or semi trailers, all on flat cars. Apart from that stuff were strings of monolithic hoppers and long narrow bodied tankers.

I don't recall much else.

 

The only consists I found remotely interesting were the Amtrack passenger trains that appeared every now and then, and lo and behold, there was actually a train with a caboose, which I had thought were totally extinct! (Hard for me to get excited about an EOT device.)

 

I realize, that like today, there were only so many different kinds of freight cars back when, but things seemed to be a lot more colorful and distinctive, and the mixture of steam, diesel, and electric, was (to me) much more appealing to me than the modern crop of stuff that is more or less angled variations of the early GP's and road switchers.

 

So before the atom bombs start to fly, what is it you guys find so appealing about the new stuff?

 

Simon

 

I completely agree there is a market for modern trains even if it is not my primary interest and completely support a 2 rail based line of more affordable products.  

 

I'd personally love to see:

1. Scale Superliner cars beyond what was done by K-Line as well as El Cap cars upgraded for HEP for Amtrak.
2. Accurate modernized HEP compatible Amtrak Heritage cars
3. Scale Amfleet I and II cars
4. Viewliner cars
5. An Acela that you can actually run in O
6. A scale HHP-8

While I am pretty strict in 2 rail to modeling era, I tend to track completely different on my 3 rail interests.  No pattern in my list at all.

 

Finally, if it weren't for the relative affordability of Sunset or Atlas products, couldn't afford to be in two rail.  I tried getting a scale wheeled MTH Trainmaster, but alas it got canceled for lack of pre-orders.

 

What makes this hobby great is the diversity of interests.

 

Trains and Locomotives usually shows video's that are available from the likes of Pentrex, Green Frog, etc.  Most of the shows I've seen the video's are over 5-10 years old.

It depends on which T&L show you catch.  One night, we caught a program covering Maine 2-footers with a fair amount of archival footage, not just Edaville.  Another time was a video devoted to 8444 (pre-844) fantrips.  Other times, it's contemporary (sort of...)

 

Rusty

 

 

 Well, I could ask why do you like the sewing machines?? 

( I do enjoy all trains)

If you see a modern diesel consist pulling a large train and you find that boring, there's nothing I could say to you. You like what you like.

 Me, I find that's what I enjoy about trains. Older equipment was replaced by fine tuned machines that proved themselves. I didn't write history. If you look at the current diesel releases and it does not say reality to you, I can't add a thing.

 

I enjoy the display of absolute power and making it look easy.  When I see videos of diesels in run 8 doing about 5 MPH it look like they are working too hard so then I switch to something else.

 

It's what I really don't like about steam.  All that noise and moving stuff.  It looks like they are working too hard.   While I am OK with diesels what I really like watching is electrified.   Other than the track sounds and the singing catenary maybe you hear a few sounds of fans or pumps.  They make it look so easy.  They sound and look the same at 100mph as they do at 1mph.  When I first saw a GG1 pulling a 12 car passenger train at 80 MPH and a pair of E44s at 50 mph pulling a long freight all I could think was wow, that is how it is supposed to be done.

 

My favorite videos are watching the Australian ore trains.  All 500 cars and 15 or so  diesels taking almost 10 minutes to go by.  Watching the control of all that just fascinates me.  It's also why I like watching Powder River Coal trains.  I don't even see the paint.

 

It's also why I do not have a layout.  If it isn't big enough to pull a 75 to 80 foot plus (80 cars plus) train then it just isn't interesting to me.  I've got 80 some Lionel bathtub gondolas I am 2-railing and I also have over 300 pounds of coal to put in them.  My goal is to get 3 or 4 locomotives to actually pull and control all that around.  And on P48 track and wheels t'boot. 

 

 

Absolutely Rule292!

 

John Engstrom produces some amazing detail and proves that plastics are an outstanding medium for any model. 

 

I believe O scale modern has a very bright future as today's 30's and 40's aged modelers get older and can't see their HO modern power anymore. 

I have not seen the FL9s in person yet but it appears Sunset is probably the most likely MFG/Importer to do better detailed 2rail hood units in the future,I like their drives and even at ever rising prices I think they are very marketable. It will be interesting to see how well the RDC project turns out as these are basicaly the same units that Sunset did in brass a number of years back, While a nice model they were a level down from the Division Point version,as I recall they listed for about 25% less. I own mostly Atlas 2rail but it appears MFG issues in China continue to limit output especially motive power,a better detailed Masterline diesel seems a long way out in the future,JMHO

rheil, Thanks for the information regarding GGD doing the headend heavyweights.  Would have responded sooner but internet was down all day.  Very good to hear they are in the works.  Looking forward to having them!