Wrong Paint On Engine Thread

Here is the image from the Lionel web site:

And following, on right is the actual Lionel item?

And next is a prototype photo of same loco model:

Seems fair to say the model is not as represented in the advertising, and would be good cause for return.

But maybe somewhere down the road it will become valuable as a "factory mistake" item. Maybe some folks will like it as a fantasy scheme or "experimental" or "high visibility" scheme. It would give variety to an otherwise uniform roster of similar-schemed locos. If you can live with a center rail and a lobster claw, why not consider a unique paint scheme for variety?

midnightwrecking posted:

Maybe newer paint on DMIR locos has gone to a lighter shade judging by all the examples on the interweb? Some look very close to the Lionel version.

While the above example may appear to be a lighter shade of maroon, it's still maroon.  Here's another shot of the 301 from a different angle:

Neither looks like the tomato red on the Lionel model.

Rusty

PAUL ROMANO posted:

Maybe some MTH research and quality control people moved over to Lionel...........

A telltale sign would be misspellings on the engines, cars and catalogs.

"Merrmack", "Reading & Nortern", "Antracite"

At some of the current new product price points, I don't blame anyone hesitant to pre-order.  It is helpful to the consumer when a dealer offers to take back an item due to a manufacturer's major blunder, but it is not fair to the dealer if he must eat the cost of that item and/or its return costs to the distributor or manufacturer.  Maintaining customer goodwill is important to many dealers.  Maintaining goodwill of the dealers should also apply to the manufacturers.  The Mfrs can quickly and easily address that through various methods such as account credits, product selections or simply cash (refund check), which as Yogi Berra once said "...which is just as good as money."

Seems like the smart thing to do would be get someone to repaint the engines for those who want it.  If one person/company does all the work then they should all come out the same.  Seems a shame to just return them and not have the engines at all.  And of course someone is going to have to eat the cost at least on the shipping if not the engine.  I haven't heard any other complaints other than the color.

I work for a company that has plants in several countries.  What I mean is we own those other plants, not just a customer of some vendor.  Our efforts to get our products built by our own people is sometimes frustrating and laughable.  We have actually moved products and lines of business out of one country to another and shut down those areas due to incompetence and mostly INDIFFERENCE at the highest levels.  So I can completely sympathize with the O gauge manufacturers who are simply a customer trying to deal with a vendor in a foreign country.  Oh and by the way, those vendors in foreign countries know that you have very few alternatives for production on your items.  Strangely the problems seem to center in the eastern and southeastern areas for us and very rarely in the european theater.  Hmmm

You do get what you pay for.

Yeah, even faded (see below), the Lionel color is just wrong.

A few years ago about 100 to-be-scrapped locos came through Mobile, and we caught a few shots of them. Among the locos were these one-time DMIR units (I think that the last operator was the Birmingham Southern - I know that the BS kept the DMIR paint scheme). The photos were taken in the Alabama State Docks yards.

Behind the neat Montreal/Alco ex-CP is a BS/DMIR loco - still quite maroon:

Looks pretty good for a loco on the way to being scrapped. Also, they look pretty maroon, too. I never really liked the "arrowhead":

We all know that this is not the first time Lionel has not done their homework before releasing an expensive model locomotive.  One that comes to mind was the incorrect whistle on a Legacy Blue Comet pacific that sounded more like a diesel horn than the steamboat chime whistle the actual engine and their previous release had.  I do believe this forum and its members were instrumental in getting Lionel to offer a corrective solution some months later. The post by AUSSTEVE sums it up perfectly.

I think the MTH color is too brown.  Lionel is too red.

Considering "batch" and paint quality (fading), how many shades of maroon do you suppose were on DMIR diesels at various times.

Today's paint quality and computer technology to match colors, IMO, has biased our color correct expectations.

This is similar to the Lionel Conrail GP35s issued w/out the Conrail logo.

Maybe Lionel will offer the same solution.

TM Terry posted:

Considering "batch" and paint quality (fading), how many shades of maroon do you suppose were on DMIR diesels at various times.

Today's paint quality and computer technology to match colors, IMO, has biased our color correct expectations.

The color on Lionel DM&IR SD38 WAY off, far more than can be explained away by fading or batch differences.  DM&IR has used maroon since their first diesel and I've never seen a photo of one that faded to tomato red.

If Dutch Boy can still match a paint color I used in my dining room 20 years ago, (and I didn't even need a computer match) it shouldn't be hard for a model train manufacturer to match DM&IR maroon.

Rusty

Rusty Traque posted:

TM Terry posted:

Considering "batch" and paint quality (fading), how many shades of maroon do you suppose were on DMIR diesels at various times.

Today's paint quality and computer technology to match colors, IMO, has biased our color correct expectations.

The color on Lionel DM&IR SD38 WAY off, far more than can be explained away by fading or batch differences.  DM&IR has used maroon since their first diesel and I've never seen a photo of one that faded to tomato red.

If Dutch Boy can still match a paint color I used in my dining room 20 years ago, (and I didn't even need a computer match) it shouldn't be hard for a model train manufacturer to match DM&IR maroon.

Rusty

For what it's worth, DM&IR liked the appearance of the very first EMD SD7 demonstrator (#990), with the distinctive maroon & red styling, so much, they ordered their first SD units in pretty much the same colors. Thus, the DM&IR Mechanical Department was using that same maroon paint part number, from the same supplier, for many decades.

Gee, I don't know. After 60 years or so with the same paint scheme, maybe Lionel was just trying to give the guys at DM&IR a hint that perhaps it was time to change? We all gotta come into the 21st century at some point and what better way to do it than with a bright, bold new color scheme???

Maybe next they will do an NS loco in Orange or a Conrail unit in chartreuse?

handyandy posted:

Gee, I don't know. After 60 years or so with the same paint scheme, maybe Lionel was just trying to give the guys at DM&IR a hint that perhaps it was time to change?

The DM&IR no longer exists, as it became part of the Canadian National system (CNIC), some years ago. Thus, I wonder where Lionel researched and got their information?

We all gotta come into the 21st century at some point and what better way to do it than with a bright, bold new color scheme???

Maybe next they will do an NS loco in Orange or a Conrail unit in chartreuse?

Of course, we must remember that the subject item of this thread, listed in the 2015 Volume 2 catalog, was part of the CYA fine print on the back cover thereof:

"Items depicted in this catalog are subject to change in price, color, size, design, and availability."

...which probably makes the legal department happy () and precious few others.

Oh dear!.....I just noticed that this fine print CYA is NOT part of the 2016 Volume 2 catalog....anywhere!   New product shown in and delivered from this most recent catalog??........Stand by.

KD

Rusty Traque posted:

The color on Lionel DM&IR SD38 WAY off, far more than can be explained away by fading or batch differences.  DM&IR has used maroon since their first diesel and I've never seen a photo of one that faded to tomato red ...

Just a side note of possible interest, if it wasn't already obvious ... the maroon/rust color derives from the color of iron ore and taconite.

Ace posted:

Rusty Traque posted:

The color on Lionel DM&IR SD38 WAY off, far more than can be explained away by fading or batch differences.  DM&IR has used maroon since their first diesel and I've never seen a photo of one that faded to tomato red ...

Just a side note of possible interest, if it wasn't already obvious ... the maroon/rust color derives from the color of iron ore and taconite.

As I already stated, above the DM&IR selected that maroon color from the first EMD SD7 demonstrator.

dkdkrd posted:

Of course, we must remember that the subject item of this thread, listed in the 2015 Volume 2 catalog, was part of the CYA fine print on the back cover thereof:

"Items depicted in this catalog are subject to change in price, color, size, design, and availability."

...which probably makes the legal department happy () and precious few others.

KD

Always thought that stuff meant in the event they discovered their illustration or sample piece was wrong it would be corrected, not to infer that while it may be shown correctly it could be produced incorrectly if we so chose to do so for no reason. Why have a catalog then? Could you imagine auto brochures where the produced vehicles don't look like the illustrations and the colors are completely different? Paint samples for your house? Interesting thread.

Allegheny48 posted:

We all know that this is not the first time Lionel has not done their homework before releasing an expensive model locomotive.  One that comes to mind was the incorrect whistle on a Legacy Blue Comet pacific that sounded more like a diesel horn than the steamboat chime whistle the actual engine and their previous release had.  I do believe this forum and its members were instrumental in getting Lionel to offer a corrective solution some months later. The post by AUSSTEVE sums it up perfectly.

All it takes for me to avoid pre-ordering is look at a set of Lionel off color lime green GTW F3's on my layout as a reminder.   The worst part of that screw up is how I was blindsided when Lionel had the color dead on in the catalog caption but horribly wrong when the engine arrived.    I seem to remember back in the day when Lionel really cared about such things, they even sent out replacement  F-3 shells when just the SF heralds were backwards...

Joe   

JC642 posted:

Allegheny48 posted:

We all know that this is not the first time Lionel has not done their homework before releasing an expensive model locomotive.  One that comes to mind was the incorrect whistle on a Legacy Blue Comet pacific that sounded more like a diesel horn than the steamboat chime whistle the actual engine and their previous release had.  I do believe this forum and its members were instrumental in getting Lionel to offer a corrective solution some months later. The post by AUSSTEVE sums it up perfectly.

All it takes for me to avoid pre-ordering is look at a set of Lionel off color lime green GTW F3's on my layout as a reminder.   The worst part of that screw up is how I was blindsided when Lionel had the color dead on in the catalog caption but horribly wrong when the engine arrived.    I seem to remember back in the day when Lionel really cared about such things, they even sent out replacement  F-3 shells when just the SF heralds were backwards...

Joe   

I don't remember backwards Santa Fe heralds but I do remember a way off red on Santa Fe PWC F3's where Lionel replaced the shells.

However, when they got the nose decorations backwards on the NS Gensets, no replacements were offered.

Rusty

Hot Water posted:

Ace posted:

Rusty Traque posted:

The color on Lionel DM&IR SD38 WAY off, far more than can be explained away by fading or batch differences.  DM&IR has used maroon since their first diesel and I've never seen a photo of one that faded to tomato red ...

Just a side note of possible interest, if it wasn't already obvious ... the maroon/rust color derives from the color of iron ore and taconite.

As I already stated, above the DM&IR selected that maroon color from the first EMD SD7 demonstrator.

Yeah whatever, but my point is that someone chose the color based on the fact that it resembles the color of the product hauled by the railroad. The color selection wasn't totally arbitrary; it had major relevance to the railroad and the iron ore mining industry that it served. How many other railroads can say that about their loco color schemes, other than black steam locos that hauled coal trains ... ?

From a practical standpoint, the ore dust wouldn't obviously degrade the appearance of the locomotive paint scheme. SP gray was practical for diesels navigating long smoke-filled tunnels!   

BobbyD posted:

dkdkrd posted:

"Items depicted in this catalog are subject to change in price, color, size, design, and availability."

Always thought that stuff meant in the event they discovered their illustration or sample piece was wrong it would be corrected, not to infer that while it may be shown correctly it could be produced incorrectly if we so chose to do so for no reason. Why have a catalog then? 

In theory, you're right.  That's the...altruistic (word of the day?)...way of looking at that caveat.

However, in a litigious society in which we all live, the barristers on the corporate payroll prefer to lay down at least a minimal defense for the 'whoopsies!' that can pop up in production.....for various reasons.  Sad to surmise, but for the high volume, multi-faceted production guys (YOU supply the brand names....not me!) that sit in corporate offices half-a-globe away from them that are interpreting,tooling,  fabricating, painting, boxing, shipping....repeat....without an effective Hawtch-Hawtcher bee-watcher (ref. Dr. Seuss' perspective) present,......well,.......surprise, surprise.....'What's this?????' can echo through the halls.

Some of the 'whoopsies!' are rather humorously benign, like....

Really?.....the 752 Searboard Coaler??  

But, other situations,.......like the color of paint on a DM&IR SD-38.....are not only far less  benign, hardly humorous, but a pretty sad/revealing indictment of the bee-watcher.

Of course, the late Dr. W. Edwards Deming effectively convinced whole manufacturing societies that bee-watchers were unnecessary, wasteful in cost-of-manufacturing, etc., etc., blah, blah.  But he's dead and gone, and so seems the penchant for his premises in an ever-changing cut-throat competitive global shell-and-pea game of sourcing/marketing.

So, again, you're right, in essence;That ubiquitous CYA fine print statement is hardly worth the ink consumed in the print on a catalog.  But, it says a lot about the depth of bee-watchers...or not...in Hawtch-Hawtch minding the store.

About 40 years ago I participated in a meeting between a manufacturing plant manager/team and the product engineers who had labored to create accurate component/assembly drawings, material specifications, and the like, in the definition of a rather critical automotive component.  The plant was having trouble executing to the engineer's expectations, and delivering in a timely manner to the customers' expectations.....Scenario 101, if you will.  Well, after about an hour of 'Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah', the plant manager himself seized control of the discussion, demanded the attention of everyone in the room, and pronounced "I will remind everyone here, that engineering drawing dimensions and specifications are but a suggestion of how the part is to be made!".  So it's possible, mind you, that in the daisy-chain of toy train design/production/marketing....including the generation of a catalog...the mind-set that 'This is just a suggestion!' prevailed in the rush to fill the shipping container.    Maybe?

Yes, this IS an interesting thread.  Just like the hobby itself.

dkdkrd posted:

BobbyD posted:

dkdkrd posted:

"Items depicted in this catalog are subject to change in price, color, size, design, and availability."

Always thought that stuff meant in the event they discovered their illustration or sample piece was wrong it would be corrected, not to infer that while it may be shown correctly it could be produced incorrectly if we so chose to do so for no reason. Why have a catalog then? 

In theory, you're right.  That's the...altruistic (word of the day?)...way of looking at that caveat.

However, in a litigious society in which we all live, the barristers on the corporate payroll prefer to lay down at least a minimal defense for the 'whoopsies!' that can pop up in production.....for various reasons.  Sad to surmise, but for the high volume, multi-faceted production guys (YOU supply the brand names....not me!) that sit in corporate offices half-a-globe away from them that are interpreting,tooling,  fabricating, painting, boxing, shipping....repeat....without an effective Hawtch-Hawtcher bee-watcher (ref. Dr. Seuss' perspective) present,......well,.......surprise, surprise.....'What's this?????' can echo through the halls.

Some of the 'whoopsies!' are rather humorously benign, like....

Really?.....the 752 Searboard Coaler??  

But, other situations,.......like the color of paint on a DM&IR SD-38.....are not only far less  benign, hardly humorous, but a pretty sad/revealing indictment of the bee-watcher.

Of course, the late Dr. W. Edwards Deming effectively convinced whole manufacturing societies that bee-watchers were unnecessary, wasteful in cost-of-manufacturing, etc., etc., blah, blah.  But he's dead and gone, and so seems the penchant for his premises in an ever-changing cut-throat competitive global shell-and-pea game of sourcing/marketing.

So, again, you're right, in essence;That ubiquitous CYA fine print statement is hardly worth the ink consumed in the print on a catalog.  But, it says a lot about the depth of bee-watchers...or not...in Hawtch-Hawtch minding the store.

About 40 years ago I participated in a meeting between a manufacturing plant manager/team and the product engineers who had labored to create accurate component/assembly drawings, material specifications, and the like, in the definition of a rather critical automotive component.  The plant was having trouble executing to the engineer's expectations, and delivering in a timely manner to the customers' expectations.....Scenario 101, if you will.  Well, after about an hour of 'Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah', the plant manager himself seized control of the discussion, demanded the attention of everyone in the room, and pronounced "I will remind everyone here, that engineering drawing dimensions and specifications are but a suggestion of how the part is to be made!".  So it's possible, mind you, that in the daisy-chain of toy train design/production/marketing....including the generation of a catalog...the mind-set that 'This is just a suggestion!' prevailed in the rush to fill the shipping container.    Maybe?

Yes, this IS an interesting thread.  Just like the hobby itself.

OMG it must of been a business disease or something, I too had to suffer through Deming classes and Feigenbaum lectures to the point that I married his grand niece. She runs our house like she's the project manager, it's exhausting.

I prefer terracotta to maroon more orange than blue, don't like blue.

Lionel was always a little artful when it came to colors one notices that even though the schemes may be similar to identical with the prototype, Lionel took some license with the actual tone and hue. I rather think they often did a better job at color selection than the original but it probably was from the thought of how kids see colors rather than adults especially a set of adults that couldn't get beyond Tuscan red, Pullman green, or flat black.

Bogie

I've chased the Missabe, shot many photos and love the area it ran in.  This color is not right and I've ordered two of these units!  I'm a bit queasy at this point.  From railfanning the road many times I can't recall seeing a whole lot of variation on the paint, other than dust and dirt.  The herald seems wrong as well, it appears to have a black background in the ring, my recollection is, that ring was green.  At this point I would prefer the color wrong on the dark side as opposed to the red side.  My two cents, FWIW.

Hi Cheryl,  The Herald does look off as well.  If you could take a picture of your engine when it comes in that would be great.  I suspect that the color will be consistent.  

Actually, the SP should have painted their units BLACK post 1958 if they were concerned about them getting dirty in tunnels!

That color mismatch reminds me of the results I get out of my color printer when one of the color ink cartridges is empty.  I'm not saying that's what happened here, but...hmmmmmmmmm.  or am I?  Definitely seems to be missing green/blue in the maroon and the herald.

After seeing the Lionel live in person, it is not so red as in the original post.  The yellow is of more concern.  It might be the right color yellow but it is sprayed over the maroon and does not come up to color in one shot.  Most yellows need to be sprayed over white to have a true color.

Even in the photo above, One looks brown, the other looks maroon.

Dave

The SAFETY circular logo could be corrected with custom printed decals, by that company that custom prints retro-reflective decals.

Mr. Muffin's Trains has the pair of the new DM&IR SD38 diesel locos for sale. 

Andrew 

In years past Lionel had a SP Daylight paint scheme on a engine not even close to anything that ever had the Daylight paint. It wasn't a mistake, they knew the Daylight paint was popular.

People...once again it's TOY TRAINS....chill.....no need to launch the missiles... 

The paint scheme applied in China does not match up with anything painted for Missabe in O scale or O gauge. 

If the railroad in question used a color of a demo SD7 locomotive, then there is a good chance there a paint chip sameple somewhere.  

And to me the maroon on the locomotive is not the same shade of maroon that Texas A&M uses.....

I recently received a Canadian Pacific SD40. The catalog presents the model as CP red, instead I got neon orange red (the picture does not do justice on how much this hurts the eye) I can tolerate variance in shades, but this ridiculous.

I emailed both the Lionel and the retailer, no response, my 10 day return window is closing. I will follow through with some phone calls on Monday.

I am not here to bash Lionel, I really want them to succeed, but for their sake and the sake of the O gauge hobby this issue needs to be resolved. This has been happening too often and for too long with Lionel. With MTH leaving, many people may just give up on the hobby if this lack of quality  control continues.

If there is a representative from Lionel reading, please chime in

If the people at LIONEL had made a SOO LINE SD40 in the original 1969-1970 paint scheme first, then made the CP Rail repaint in the next run, there would have been less of a problem with the paint scheme.

Andrew

@David Minarik posted:

I think the MTH color is too brown.  Lionel is too red.

Hey David,

I viewed those Lionel Bessemer SD38s you posted. They look nice, I was considering picking one up. How is the color and quality on those? (See my recent post on this tread)

@falconservice posted:

The paint scheme applied in China does not match up with anything painted for Missabe in O scale or O gauge.

Regardless of where it was painted, it is the responsibility of the company that puts their name on the box.  Not sure why China has anything to do with it.  Never leave QC in the hands of someone who does not know what it was supposed to look like in the first place.  That is the job of management.

While this may not be perfect either, it is a whole lot closer. A little research goes a long way.

Lionel had the correct color 40 years ago

@GG1 4877 posted:

Regardless of where it was painted, it is the responsibility of the company that puts their name on the box.  Not sure why China has anything to do with it.  Never leave QC in the hands of someone who does not know what it was supposed to look like in the first place.  That is the job of management.

While this may not be perfect either, it is a whole lot closer. A little research goes a long way.

Yes, that is almost completely correct.

The one visual element missing from this DULUTH, MISSABE & IRON RANGE paint scheme diagram would be the diagonal yellow stripes along the side of the frame.

Everybody at the model railroad company needs to find as many old photos of the original item to show the people running the production line to clearly communicate what the final replica will be.

Andrew

@Cogen1981 posted:

Hey David,

I viewed those Lionel Bessemer SD38s you posted. They look nice, I was considering picking one up. How is the color and quality on those? (See my recent post on this tread)

Lionel painted them reefer orange.  They should be Western Pacific orange.  I darkened mine up when they were apart.  Not a deal breaker for me because I weather them anyway.

Take a look at the Lionel catalogs from the 50's.  Some of he artists renditions weren't even close to the final product. Especially the advance catalogs. We were kids then, didn't care, just happy to have a new Lionel.  Adjusting for inflation,  the trains weren't inexpensive then either.