Yellow Hall Returning?

Call me when they bring back the Green Hall.   

Farmer_Bill posted:

Call me when they bring back the Green Hall.   

 

AKA "the Green Barn" when announced on the PA system for some reason.  (I guess in fairness it was more like a barn than the rest of the halls, and perhaps for those familiar with other uses of the Fairgrounds property, maybe it did regularly serve as a barn?)

As to the original post, that's a bit interesting.  It can't be because the meet needs more space, I don't think.  Seems to be a fair number of empty tables at each meet(I don't know for sure at this meet, but I seem to recall even Orange had a few no-shows over the last year or two). 

If it could be used to replace a number of smaller halls, it might make sense, but I don't see how the layout of the building would work too well for that.  I doubt it could replace more than maybe 2 of the member halls' amount of tables if you were to try to cram the participants in there.

I could take the optimistic view and say influx of extra cash caused by the elimination of the Senior rate for meet attendance will put the event so far in the black that they can afford to rent the extra hall and spread people out.

-Dave

Now don't get me wrong, because I truly enjoyed the "old days" working and shopping  in the Yellow Hall back when I was with Greenberg Publishing. But it is far from being a comfortable place to work in, or even shop in, and I can't imagine going back to those roots again.

If the TCA Eastern is going to change ANYTHING at or about their meet, they absolutely (in my opinion) need to go back to the "old days" of a Friday-Saturday meet schedule. They really need to see the writing on the wall in regard to the changing trends and demographics of the hobby. I must have talked to at least 30 Orange Hall dealers last week who agree with me on this. I never had a chance to visit any of the other halls this time around, but I imagine others in those venues would echo the same sentiment.

And I'm still very much in favor of going to a once-a-year, October-only event for much the same reasons.

But it's their meet, and I certainly respect their right to run it in whatever way they see fit. I suspect it can survive well enough for a few more years, but I, for one, would like to see it have a more promising long-term future.

Alan, I agree. The yellow hall would bring back the memories for sure but it did get tight in there. Also going back to Friday Saturday would be fine. The lack of attendance was little better this time but spring usually ruins that feel. One less day would help

Allan Miller posted:

 

If the TCA Eastern is going to change ANYTHING at or about their meet, they absolutely (in my opinion) need to go back to the "old days" of a Friday-Saturday meet schedule. They really need to see the writing on the wall in regard to the changing trends and demographics of the hobby. I must have talked to at least 30 Orange Hall dealers last week who agree with me on this. I never had a chance to visit any of the other halls this time around, but I imagine others in those venues would echo the same sentiment.

 

Because Saturday is such a big draw? (yes sarcasm).  Maybe just stay with Thursday / Friday.  AT least those days have people attending.  All we hear about Saturdays is no one is there and everyone packing up to leave early.  I'd dump Saturday and move on with life.  It won't be any better if it was Friday Saturday.

Marty very true, I don't recall Saturday being very packed even when I was a kid.

MartyE posted:

Allan Miller posted:

 

If the TCA Eastern is going to change ANYTHING at or about their meet, they absolutely (in my opinion) need to go back to the "old days" of a Friday-Saturday meet schedule. They really need to see the writing on the wall in regard to the changing trends and demographics of the hobby. I must have talked to at least 30 Orange Hall dealers last week who agree with me on this. I never had a chance to visit any of the other halls this time around, but I imagine others in those venues would echo the same sentiment.

 

Because Saturday is such a big draw? (yes sarcasm).  Maybe just stay with Thursday / Friday.  AT least those days have people attending.  All we hear about Saturdays is no one is there and everyone packing up to leave early.  I'd dump Saturday and move on with life.  It won't be any better if it was Friday Saturday.

Every day is Saturday when you’re retired. So how does Thursday even matter? For those of us working jobs all week long, the days really do matter and  having a full day Saturday without table holders slithering away early would promote attendance by working folks who can only go on the weekend. 

The yellow hall will be used for othe gauges. Lionel, MTH, Bachmann, and Atlas all offer HO. If they get on board ED would try to get other manufacturers and dealers in there to attract those interested in other than toy trains. In other words more of the model train community.

And Alan you might just get your wish.

Pete

GregR posted:

Every day is Saturday when you’re retired. So how does Thursday even matter? For those of us working jobs all week long, the days really do matter and  having a full day Saturday without table holders slithering away early would promote attendance by working folks who can only go on the weekend. 

Like it does now?  Again sarcasm.  If all folks not wanting to take a day off went Saturday now, then we wouldn't even be discussing this.  If Saturday was a boom I'd be all for it but as of now, Thursday and Friday are the big draws.  Would that change if Thursday was axed?  I don't know but from what I remember, Saturday was never very crowded and especially after the noon hour.

To me it doesn't matter.  I'll go whenever they have it but you have to maximize the days that show the greatest attendance and that's not Saturday.  Hopefully they can figure something out.  I guess any ideas pertaining to what days are certainly worth entertaining.  

To a certain extent there is a fair amount of sameness to every York meet.   Different pickings but categorically similar.   Since 1994 I have gone every fall/spring, once a year or skipped a few years.  During the times I skipped the only thing I really missed were the people.  Friends and vendor contacts.

For senior attendees who have difficulty with increased fees I would simply suggest to follow some big vendors,   skip a year.

MartyE posted:

Allan Miller posted:

 

If the TCA Eastern is going to change ANYTHING at or about their meet, they absolutely (in my opinion) need to go back to the "old days" of a Friday-Saturday meet schedule. They really need to see the writing on the wall in regard to the changing trends and demographics of the hobby. I must have talked to at least 30 Orange Hall dealers last week who agree with me on this. I never had a chance to visit any of the other halls this time around, but I imagine others in those venues would echo the same sentiment.

 

Because Saturday is such a big draw? (yes sarcasm).  Maybe just stay with Thursday / Friday.  AT least those days have people attending.  All we hear about Saturdays is no one is there and everyone packing up to leave early.  I'd dump Saturday and move on with life.  It won't be any better if it was Friday Saturday.

Does Saturday have low attendance because all the good stuff sold on Thursday with the small remainder Friday?

I don't think doing away with Saturday is a good idea. Then sellers will be packing up at 2 pm on Friday. Thursday is my usual day to attend York. I seem to remember before Thursday was added, trying to walk the crowded aisles on Friday had me skipping the Red Hall altogether. But perhaps, for some of you, that was part of the "fun".

MartyE posted:

Because Saturday is such a big draw? (yes sarcasm).  Maybe just stay with Thursday / Friday.  AT least those days have people attending.  All we hear about Saturdays is no one is there and everyone packing up to leave early.  I'd dump Saturday and move on with life.  It won't be any better if it was Friday Saturday.

Nope, Saturday never was a particularly big draw, but folks (individuals) would simply have to adjust to it or pass on the meet altogether, as increasing numbers are apparently already doing, particularly in April. A Friday-Saturday meet would serve well for most manufacturers, retailers, working folks, students, and the list goes on. Would also cut down on expenses for all concerned. I would recommend a 11 am-7 pm schedule on Friday, and a 9 am-5 pm schedule on Saturday.

Thursday is a tough day for folks who are still employed, as well as for students and others. Retirees can pretty much handle any days or schedule, of course, but retirees should not be, in my view, a primary consideration. And even in their case, expenses play a part.

It's entirely possible that Saturday could become a viable day at this point because times have changed and the hobby has changed with them, if not faster. Saturday at this past meet was, at least in the Orange Hall, pretty much a ghost town. . . no better and no worse than it was back in the 90s before there even was an Orange Hall. But this is a different time, and circumstances are quite different. We oldsters of today--still the core group in this hobby--were a lot more plentiful, healthy, wealthy, and eager to buy than is the case today when many--dealers and members alike--are contending with life's realities involving all of those same considerations, but from a different perspective. That is one of the reasons I continue to recommend a once-a-year meet, held in October.

Don't get me wrong: I truly enjoy York and hope to be able to attend for a fair number of years to come. I am also not in a position to dictate what moves or directions the Eastern Division folks should take. I am just offering recommendations from my own perspective, formed over many years starting back around 1990 when I first attended as a guest after having moved back to the mainland from Hawaii.

Change is in the air, as likely will be evident at the next York meet, but I hope to be able to attend a good many more Eastern Division meets as long as my health holds up and I have some extra bucks available for such adventures.

Just my opinion (that of a rookie who has ONLY attended approx 25 meets). Reduce York to 2 days All Day Friday and Saturday. You still need a weekend day for those still working.  This should be a first step.  BTW the Springfield show in Jan does not seem to suffer with two days.

What the TCA needs to do is conduct a survey  of the dealers and attendees, and then gauge what everyone wants.

I'm not an ED member, so have no say, but I'd consider elimination of Thursday and adding some of the hours to Saturday (with Museum events moving back to Thursday) as a good way to have enough hours to see it all across the 2 days and also support a Saturday attendance/buying/selling  improvement.   I might not agree with the exact hours Allan suggested, but something along those lines.

It's the early pack up situation that kills Saturday, IMO.  The catch-22 self fulfilling prophecy.  Sellers say no one is buying on Saturday, so start leaving early.  Prospective buyers say with all the sellers packing up early, why do I want to waste the half day (or 3 hours, if you were to assume the packing is quite prevalent by noon) walking through aisles that are being packed up and I can't see what  they have to sell?  And repeat.....

But I could be wrong.  Others have far more experience with this than I do.

-Dave

Under the grandstand?!!  I think that is a really bad idea.  You could hardly move under there...if they want to segregate HO, etc., use the "barn" or the one they stopped using next to the "orange", (dealer) hall, "pink", or whatever.  Since the buses seemed to run less frequently than l remember, none was in sight when l wanted one, l hiked, and if attendance is shrinking, the buildings should be closely grouped, meaning using the buildings that are closely grouped.  I don't know if it is chicken or egg..less attendance at York because of no new prototypes and mfrs., or no new either because of fewer people attending York and in hobby?

Allan Miller posted:

 

Thursday is a tough day for folks who are still employed, as well as for students and others. Retirees can pretty much handle any days or schedule, of course, but retirees should not be, in my view, a primary consideration. And even in their case, expenses play a part.

It's entirely possible that Saturday could become a viable day at this point because times have changed and the hobby has changed with them, if not faster. Saturday at this past meet was, at least in the Orange Hall, pretty much a ghost town. . . no better and no worse than it was back in the 90s before there even was an Orange Hall. But this is a different time, and circumstances are quite different. We oldsters of today--still the core group in this hobby--were a lot more plentiful, healthy, wealthy, and eager to buy than is the case today when many--dealers and members alike--are contending with life's realities involving all of those same considerations, but from a different perspective. That is one of the reasons I continue to recommend a once-a-year meet, held in October.

 

Well Allan I think if they go to a Friday / Saturday the meet becomes a 1 day affair.  I could very well be wrong and because of no Thursday, Saturday picks up.  At least that would be my hope.  But I'm with you, I'll continue to go and enjoy myself with whatever they decide.  A bad day York is better than a good day at work.

In regards to a yearly show in October, Lionel will not have a booth in April 2019.  They will be back for the October 2019 meet.  Ryan Kunkle will make a presentation at the TCA Museum on the Wednesday before York.  I had posted this earlier as its own separate thread but it was deleted I am guessing because it turned into a Lionel bashing thread.

Neal Jeter

You will never get the public numbers if the days stay as-is or Thursday is dropped. 

If you want the public to attend, the show has to be Saturday and Sunday during regular hours, like 10-5. If you have to have a TCA only day, keep Friday exactly as-is today. 

.....Show me a public train show (or any family event) anywhere that is only open half-days Thursday and Saturday and all day Friday....

Two posts above  "I'm not an ED member"..  What is ED?

I know they sell pills for it on TV but this ED must be different.

Tom Tee posted:

Two posts above  "I'm not an ED member"..  What is ED?

I know they sell pills for it on TV but this ED must be different.

Eastern Division of the TCA.

Never seen an explanation as to why hours were so weird, unless it was imposition of religion (l haven't found the area under Blue Laws, which my state was too long burdened with) Almost every other trainshow (Wheaton, etc.) is open Sunday for working stiffs.  Must be something l don't know.

It's never been on Sunday, to the best of my knowledge, but I've only been going since 1997.

Supposedly the days had something to do with arrangements with the fairgrounds (possibly selling Sunday to other events, etc.), but only those who run the meet have the actual story and how it is right now.

From the vendor's perspective, many use Sunday to travel long distances back home to actually be open for business on Monday, so a lot would not like Sunday, as they would then need to be closed on Monday while traveling.

Obviously the hours/days evolved when Thursday was added.

-Dave

    OK, I'm watching this and the other treads on the York meet and here we are reinventing the wheel for the umpteenth time again on how this and that that does or doesn't work and how the ED needs to run the show.  If I remember correctly, it was either the big dealers or the manufacturers (or both) that wanted the show expanded to Thursday in the first place. Once that happened, then there was the push to allow the public to attend.  So these things happened and certain people still aren't happy. So now, on this and another tread, there are people who have either heard rumors or actually know something but have to keep secrets for whatever reason. If you know something, just say what it is already. This "I know something and you don't" is like being back in grade school. 

Like to improve the York meet?  How about wider aisles in the member halls?  

I was also not impressed with the way everyone got the "bums rush" out of the Orange hall before the official closing time!  I think they need to deal with that.  That's the first time I ever remember then wanting EVERYONE out before the closing time, including the dealers!

In my opinion and I have only been going to York for 41 years, Is to keep the MEET on Thursday, but open it earlier, maybe around 10am.  As for the meet being once a year, that is stupid. Who wants to wait a full year. OGR wants it that way to save money. If they give up Saturday, the tables holders will close up early on Friday. The retired people and that is most of the people, have more money to spend that the younger people. Please don't go to once a year. I can't wait that long,  & I am sure others feel the same, stupid idea. If the meet goes back to Friday & Saturday the bandit shows will get bigger. This thread happens after every York. I like the idea that the fee will go up in April to $15. for everyone . That will help the ED.  As for the Yellow hall returning, I have no idea what's up with that. I have more to say, but I will wait.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Like to improve the York meet?  How about wider aisles in the member halls?  

I was also not impressed with the way everyone got the "bums rush" out of the Orange hall before the official closing time!  I think they need to deal with that.  That's the first time I ever remember then wanting EVERYONE out before the closing time, including the dealers!

I may be mistaken, but I believe that dynamic (for both member halls and dealer halls - but key being table holders need to be out as well) changed maybe a year or 2 ago.

Rumors at the time suggested it had something to do with being charged overtime for the guards if anyone was still inside even one minute past the closing bell.

That was pretty ridiculous with the lights being shut most of the way off so early.  It was especially comical that  the announcement of when the halls would close happened around 30 seconds before they shut most of the lights off (around 15 minutes before close, IIRC).  They've been dimming many of the lights early to get people out for a while now, but Friday's timing seemed more extreme.

-Dave

Here are a couple of my thoughts:

1. The regular attendees at York are not getting younger. The York show needs to attract a new and younger/family audience. Other train shows are successful at doing this by having operating layouts, other kid-oriented attractions  and/or kid operated layouts interspersed with the dealers.

2. The early "clear the building" announcement interrupted a sale that I was making on Thursday and effectively closed business around twenty minutes early on Friday when the late afternoon shopping still seemed dynamic to me. That should never happen again.

3. I would recommend that the show begin and at the same time on at least Thursday and Friday. That way, bus groups get a "full" day on Thursday and there is no confusion about starting times. Any more that 8 hours a day is a hardship on many dealers.

4. A national advertising campaign to let the non-TCA enthusiasts know that they are welcome on Friday and Saturday needs to start  NOW for April. Print deadlines for January- March publications are fast approaching. "York" is both a noun and a verb, but it seems to me that the general public is still either unaware of the event or still feels excluded because of decades of previous exclusivity.

5. Packing early is not an issue if vendors/dealers are making sales. The show promoter must work hard to attract an audience to fill a venue for all days that they collect fees from and expect attendance by their vendors. I am of the opinion that the York vendors in total bring an incredible variety of train products for viewing, discussion and purchase.

Eddie, I been going for only 33 tears, I have to  agree with you on opening the meet at 10 on thursday, and keep the other days as is.

Todds Architectural Models posted:

 

4. A national advertising campaign to let the non-TCA enthusiasts know that they are welcome on Friday and Saturday needs to start  NOW for April. Print deadlines for January- March publications are fast approaching. "York" is both a noun and a verb, but it seems to me that the general public is still either unaware of the event or still feels excluded because of decades of previous exclusivity.

I have to agree with this. When in the dealer halls, I didn’t see very many people with the wrist bands on they give out to the public on Friday and Saturday. The people with badges significantly outnumbered those with wrist bands. Don’t get me wrong, I think having York as a members only event is great. However, the amount of members attending the meet continues to dwindle every spring and fall. More advertising at least for the general public side of the meet could help get the word out more resulting in more people attending and an increase in people joining the TCA to see the rest of the meet.

The YELLOW HALL?

The cold, unheated, dank, dark and crowded "basement" of the grandstand? Oh sure...that will help improve this meet/show.

Been there. Done that. No one in their right mind would want to set up a booth in that dump.

Good grief. 

FORMER OGR CEO - RETIRED posted:

The YELLOW HALL?

The cold, unheated, dank, dark and crowded "basement" of the grandstand? Oh sure...that will help improve this meet/show.

Been there. Done that. No one in their right mind would want to set up a booth in that dump.

Good grief. 

The Fairgrounds is thinking of upgrading the Yellow Hall and asking its regular customers if they would have a use for it. It wasn't Eastern Divisions idea but they are now thinking of ways to use it. Right now the thought is to use it to attract Model Railroaders who currently have little interest in what goes on there now, including HO and N where the majority of model railroaders are.

Folks here have been saying for years that ED has to make the show more like The Big E or the Great American Train show. 

Nothing is written in stone at this point so give it a chance.

Pete

eddie g posted:

As for the meet being once a year, that is stupid. Who wants to wait a full year. OGR wants it that way to save money. If they give up Saturday, the tables holders will close up early on Friday. The retired people and that is most of the people, have more money to spend that the younger people.

Well, let's see. I have attended a great many once-a-year events hosted by a large number of national train clubs and such (various scales) and I have had no real problem waiting for the next round. Try Trainfest in Milwaukee, for example, or the NMRA National Convention and its related show held in a different city each year. And there are plenty of others.

"OGR wants it that way to save money?" Hmm. . . I doubt we are anywhere near alone in that regard. I can name a good number of manufacturers and suppliers that feels the same way, not to mention independent dealers who are continually faced with economic uncertainty in a changing hobby, economy, and society. Yep, saving money from a business perspective is not really a bad thing.

Good to know that "retired people . . . have more money to spend. . . ." I'm not so sure that is necessariyl true anymore, if it ever was. But aside from that, a good number of retired people who have been in the hobby for a reasonably long time have pretty much already acquired most or all of the trains they have sought or can use or even house. Many have already recognized the finite limits of our time on this planet, and determined that it is to their advantage to enjoy and make use of what they have rather than see relatives give it all away a couple of weeks after the hobbyist is planted. I can't begin to tell you how many folks I talk to who tell me they come to York now almost exclusively for the social experience it provides, and how many tell me they are cutting back to one time a year simply because it is becoming cost prohibitive due to increased real-world expenses such as health care costs and a myriad of other things that are not matched by increases in pensions or Social Security.

The point is, there are a whole lot of things to be considered by ANY hobby organization operating in today's fast-paced and fast-changing society. There are no simple solutions.

Some sudden thoughts and second thoughts. 

**Talking about the attendance at train shows in general, the Saturday/Sunday format always seems to draw the large crowds. The vendors who attend those shows don’t seem to have a problem with being there Sunday. Why is the York Meet any different? Maybe because those vendors are more localized?  Does it matter if they are making sales?

            *************************

Someone asked: “What is the meaning of life?” Some random dude replied: “To give life a meaning.”

             *************************

**We must remember that the York Meet is organized and operated by the volunteer members of the TCA Eastern Division. Only they can decide how to run their event. The Eastern Division members interests should be served first. Also remember that the TCA itself was founded by a group of guys who just wanted to share, trade, buy and sell their trains. It wasn’t created to be a vessel for vendors, dealers and manufacturers/importers to make money. They joined up and became part of the landscape. They have enhanced the Meet greatly, but at some point began to think they are the driving force. 

             **************************

“When you do things right, people won’t be sure you’ve done anything at all”

            ***************************

**The Eastern Division folks, nor anyone else, will never be able to make everyone happy. Those who dislike how it’s run or the location or the days and times are going to say the Meet is dying. Those who find their coveted treasures will say how great it is. So if it boils down to making money, wouldn’t you think sellers would want to be there when the buyers would be? It’s a vicious cycle. Members wishes vs. the sellers vs. attendees. My suggestion; Friday, Saturday and Sunday 9-5. Friday would be for members only as well as 9am to noon on Saturday. Noon Saturday until close on Sunday for the non member public. I don’t get the argument about dealers worried about getting home before Monday to open their store when they are getting to York on Tuesday or Wednesday for the rest of the week. Aren’t they worried about being open on those days too?

**The Yellow Hall/Grandstand possibly being reopened is puzzling. It is and was a dungeon of a facility. The only reason I tolerated going there was because the newer trains were housed there.  But if the building will be refurbished or remodeled or whatever for future use, maybe it could be a viable space. But as far as the York Meet use, for who, for what?  May be a good idea to house vendors of the smaller scales to bring in more public and possibly increase membership. But will those interested in the smaller scales venture over to the other Halls to be exposed to O gauge?  Or will they stay in the Yellow?  Maybe spread out all scales of modern production throughout the Orange, Purple and the Yellow Halls for maximum exposure. 

                ***********************

”No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible.”

               ***********************

**We can accumulate all kinds of ideas, but ultimately it’s the Eastern Division members that will decide. And whatever they decide will be just fine with me. (Except for making the Meet only once a year)

             ************************

Me and my friends were waiting for a bus for about an hour and a half — with an old man standing a bit away from us at the same bus stop.

Finally, we can see the bus coming, and my friend says, “Oh finally, the bus is coming,” and the old man just turns to us and says, “The bus was always coming.”

Being a newbie to the hobby and this being only my third time at the show I see valid points of both of moving days and keeping days. I’m lucky I only live 20 minutes from the show and work only 10 minutes away, so I can take a half day of work and still attend on Thursday. I’m also lucky enough to get 7 weeks vacation at 43 years old. The thought of getting more families to attend when the current show days are I don’t see it happenening especially the way current employers are with vacation ( again I’m lucky). I came from the farm toy hobby and a lot of those local shows were 9 to 2 on Saturdays with the National show being a few days long. I like that there is one day for members only so you don’t have a lot of extra people just milling about clogging the aisle ways. I did here a vendor in the purple hall wanted more room and they couldn’t give him more room in that hall so he had a stand in the purple and orange halls. I did see a small add in the local newspaper I believe on Thursday morning.

Traindiesel posted:

**We must remember that the York Meet is organized and operated by the volunteer members of the TCA Eastern Division. Only they can decide how to run their event. The Eastern Division members interests should be served first. Also remember that the TCA itself was founded by a group of guys who just wanted to share, trade, buy and sell their trains. It wasn’t created to be a vessel for vendors, dealers and manufacturers/importers to make money. They joined up and became part of the landscape. They have enhanced the Meet greatly, but at some point began to think they are the driving force. 

             **************************

 

**The Eastern Division folks, nor anyone else, will never be able to make everyone happy. 

**The Yellow Hall/Grandstand possibly being reopened is puzzling.

**We can accumulate all kinds of ideas, but ultimately it’s the Eastern Division members that will decide. And whatever they decide will be just fine

A fine post! Thank you.

The Yellow hall is just being talked about to use for HO.  Nothing for sure yet. The member attendance was over 9,000. That does not include the public.

Are numbers for public gonna be released?...l didn't pay attention to times/days public was admitted

"It wasn’t created to be a vessel for vendors, dealers and manufacturers/importers to make money. They joined up and became part of the landscape. They have enhanced the Meet greatly, but at some point began to think they are the driving force."

Yes, in the early years it was a genuine, no-frills train MEET--a place for collectors to gather in order to buy/sell/trade trains and share information. But that was some time ago, and I would assert that today, in part because of the significant revenue they provide to the division, but also because increasing numbers of participants in the hobby are actually doing something with their trains rather than simply placing them on shelves, the manufacturers, after-market suppliers, dealers, and vendors ARE pretty much the driving force. Take them out of the mix and I think you might have a rather significant problem to deal with. I could be wrong about that, but who can say for sure?