York Annoucements from Atlas

Here's something to think about - could a model train retailer stay in business, having Atlas as their main supplier?

Be honest!

If Lionel decided to stop supplying Atlas with their "yesterday" systems/technology, then what?

Every other business had/has to endure the hard economic times; some made it and others didn't/won't. Why should Atlas or any other business... get special consideration?

Some of you are so needy, re: this hobby, that you'll pretty much put up with anything. You're that desperate!

Talk about not living in the present; someday, someday in the future... is where you're at. In the real world, not much is happening/has been happening. Where's the good, lads? Where are they... cause I don't see them?

Rick

Needy, please clarify?

I think a lot of us in O scale have learned to live without, and some O scalers have become very talented--creating what is not available.

Mike,

I'm not taking aim at you; but, people who go on the defensive, make excuses... for an obvious failing business, to my way of thinking, appear needy and somewhat desperate; by not accepting the reality of the situation. Without them(Atlas) they(the excuse makers) feel threatened; that, without Atlas, how will they manage...

It reminds me of someone who is dependent, in an abusive relationship. I'm not saying Atlas is abusive; but, they are failing to meet their customers needs. Customers who have/and do rely on them, for their hobby needs.

I'm, also, not saying Atlas is deliberately withholding what their customers want/need; they just don't seem to be able to meet their customers needs.

Telling me - ..."a lot of us have learned to live without"...; basically, your whole last sentence, pretty much, supports what I've been saying, here.

Rick

I did not know Atlas was a failing business!

Your idea of needy may be different than mine.

Hobby - an activity or interest pursued for pleasure or relaxation and not as a main occupation.

I have no stress for the need of product, if there were, then this need would not fall under the definition of a hobby.  I’m not frustrated by the lack of product, I understand that business has its issues (good and bad), but I’m in support of Atlas, and hope they succeed.

Originally posted by Rick B:

Some of their molded-in detail is just not that good, realistic, either... i.e. the side grills and venting on some of their long hoods; it lacks a realistic appearance and has a toy or model look to it.

Originally posted by Rick B.:

A lot of their tooling is probably, dated; good enough for the appetites years ago, when it was first introduced; but, the industry's benchmark molded-in detail, has progressed to an even higher level/standard.

What the Heck are You talking about? Atlas O Locos are just as detailed as the competitions:

ATLAS O vs. Lionel GP7's:

Atlas O C425 & F3 units:

And I suppose this latest MTH model is more detailed... Look at these "see through" grills!

The only thing I can add on detail was the three part roof fan assembly, on the GP7 models.  Also note that the hand rail detail is specific to the GP-7, a tubular rod and tee top post v.s. the C-channel used on most other models. I was thinking even the molded detail was pretty good. Note the hand latches on the engine side panel doors.   Each to his own.  IMO a bit better than most.
Roof fans.

Handrail detail.

A lot of detail, both molded in and add on parts.

Note the hand latches and add-on lift rings. I would also think the louver detail to be very good.

Not the tooling on three of the four Masterline models, I own: a GP9, C630 and a SD40.

The below deck detail is fine; it's the body detail... I'm referring to. Mine are 3-rail; but, I assume Atlas's 2-rail models use the same molded plastic locomotive bodies.

As I've already mentioned, the molded-in venting/grills have a very basic, an almost 2 dimensional, appearance. Nothing comes close to appearing realistic looking... see-through.

They look like a poor facsimile of the real thing; they have the appearance of a toy or a model.

Does the GE model shown have see-through venting, on the top of the radiator wing? The top of the radiator section, on my C630, is very basic... in it's appearance.

Rick

Note on the SW models. Both the front grill and the top grills are a brass screen set in the die cast with a plastic trim.  May be not see-through but IMO pretty good detail.

Unfortunately I don't have an inside cab shot of the SW but the detail is pretty good with engineer and fireman.  Has an interesting lighted display panel.

Handrail detail

I've got the Masterline MP15DC; it's front grill could be way more dimensional looking. It has nice wire grill-work; but, that's sitting over a solid surface; not even close to realistic looking.

BTW, check out the upper longhood side vents, in the pictures of the GP9's posted. That's supposed to be venting, it looks more like walkway tread. Lame!

Rick

Lionel's poor handrail rendition on the GP-7 ruins it for me.  In fact I think that the majority of both Lionel's and MTH's handrails suck (an exception is Lionel's Trainmaster).  Atlas's Trainman handrails are poor also.  The ones that are the worst are those that go all the way down to the bottom of the shell and fold under the frame.  They can't do better than that???  Why waste time and money creating good cast on body detail only to ruin it with stamped metal hand rails??

I am going to coin a new term here - "China Handrails" - in the same vein as the "China Drive".  I hereby announce a new endeavor to persude all O manufacturers to banish the "China Handrail".

Hey Lionel (like you care) Banish the "China Handrail" !!!

Hey MTH (when you stop focusing on foreign models) Banish the "China Handrail" !!!

Hey Atlas (Hello ?) Banish the "China Handrail" !!!

If you agree with me - respond to this email with the content:

Banish the "China Handrail" !!!

if we get enough supporters maybe someone will pay attention.  Probably not, but who knows.

Robert

Robert,

I'm looking at the article in OST on the new MTH SD70Ace.  The reviewer found a few problems.  He said the handrails are scaled at 1.5", and the stanchions are far too wide--at almost 4". 

I have to agree, "Get rid of those rails!" 

In my opinion, in making a finely detailed reproduction, why not be consistant with the whole model, and go a few extra steps. 

There were other issues, such as the sandpipes, and truck side frames.

Overall, Joe gave a postive review on the Ace, based on the model's detail level and price point.

Quite recently, I got MTH's new 3.0 ACe(3-rail version), in the UP livery. I traded a MTH Premier 3.0 scale wheels CNW Dash9 and a 2.0 scale wheels CN GEVO for it; both, hardly used(the 9 had less than 12 scale miles on it).

My UP ACe is very nice, and it has some different details, as compared to my 2.0 ACe's.

Rick

Pitogo,

My May/Jun OST, with the SD70ACE review, arrived yesterday.

ChipR

PITOGO:

While I was not complaining about the thickness of the rail portion of the hand rail you are correct - the Atlas rail is too thick.  Interesting that Atlas did a good job on the handrails/safety appliances on the X29 and H21a but went back to the overly heavy railings on all other freight cars and locomotives.

So in short we need to see both the supports (stantions) and the railings improved on virtually all diesel locomotives.

Robert

Robert,

The "good job" on the X-29 and H-21a was the result of Atlas partnering with the Middle Division.  Otherwise, it would have been the "same old, same old."

Ed

Anybody have a report on the Friday afternoon grandstand seminar with Atlas? this would be in addition to the youtube tape they released.

I received a new copy of OST on Thursday.

I cannot be sure of the handrail thickness of the Atlas models, since every model produced may be designed a little different.

I compared my Atlas GP60M handrails with a brass SD70Ace.  The handrails and sachions on the GP60M are approx twice the thickness of the Overland model.

It's probably safe to assume, since brass is stronger, to add strength like that, they have to double or triple the size of the plastic versions.

One has to recall that these are being made primarily for parents and grandparents of 5-8 year old perfect little darlings who like to bash things against walls or floors or... and expect them to survive.  Those of us in the scale market are a very small minority of the overall 1/48th market and if we want things to be as scale as brass we the few need to buy in quantity, as has happened with the Atlas Trinity hoppers.

One has to remember Atlas's primary markets are HO and N.  At least they are now being honest enough not to put a delivery date on the Dash 8s.  Now that they have the same builder as Athearn things "should" get back on track (no pun intended). Everything they brought to market (Masterline) was the best in class when it was first delivered (well, except for the Phase II F3s).

I have written off MTH until their O stuff is comparable to their HO stuff; which, as of today is no where close.  As for a new MTH version of their SD70Ace have they done anything about that god awful fuel tank and undersize side frames?  And lets not even get started with their grills and vents, the see through thing does nothing for me anyway, as you can't see through in the prototypes anyway, when the mounts look like something a cave man designed.

Lionel can be better but often does much worse because of the whining about prices.  Their Tank Train cars, cylindrical and covered hoppers with the added details, and Husky stacks are awesome.  When they lowered the price of the autoracks all I could think was uh oh, they dumbed it down for the price whiners.  Low and behold they did.  Everything between the scale length ends is just plain yuck and I was glad I was able to back out of my reservations for all 14 without penalty.

In Athens, people use Greek for:  It is Chineese to me!

I was sort of taken aback by the 3 rail people on the two rail forum  but I am  getting over it. hard for a grumpy old guy to not say something. Mentioned that Atlas should cease business and I can't agree. It is the nature of the business today and there are several importers with the same problems. It could be worse and more expensive if we strayed from Atlas and others mode of doing business today. I sort have got used to the higher prices like taxes one just accepts it. I just buy less but then I do have a closet full of cars, more than I can ever put on my layout.

I was wondering what yu would like Atlas to produce, one car only. I couldn't get behind the coil cars as i see very few and believe Atlas won't rerun them much. I'd like Atlas to follow cars with industries and vehicles to support that car. I'd like a sugar demi  tank truck and a off loading dock but I don't want to wait a year or two.

rdunniii,

In the second paragraph of your last post you state "Everything they brought to market (Masterline) was best in class when it was first delivered (well, except for the Phase II F3s)".  Was there, or is there an issue with the F3s?

I ask because I ordered an A-B-A set, (2 Rail) due to arrive sometime in May.

Thanks,

Al

IMO, the Raspberry award for hand rails goes to Williams.  The side & end handrails, all stantions, the side walkway, end platforms and engine/body frame are all stamped out of one flat piece of sheet metal then folded up like a  flimsey tinfoil Origami project. yuck!

A good example of that is the Atlas PS-4750 Tman car, the kids can probably play with those on the floor all day and not break anything, talk about heavy molding! at least they got back on track with the bulkhead flat car, Hopefully next years newly announced tank car[from the video it appears to be a Masterline product] will be close to the detail level of the Trinitys,although I doubt Atlas will put that much scale detailing into anything in the foreseeable future.

What is the one car I would like Atlas to do?  There is no one car, a lot of us have expressed our desire for 53' articulated well cars for 5 years or more and that is what I still would like to see.  If done as well as the Trinity's they well sell as well as the Trinity's or better.   The only issue I have with Atlas doing them is they would probably go for the oddball National cars rather than the much more common Gundersen or Thrall cars which would limit their appeal to most people (like me) and thus not sell as well.

If you do not know the inaccuracies of the Atlas Phase II F3s compared to the Lionel then you will never notice them so don't worry about it.  And Atlas does do a clearly superior paint job to Lionel.  

rdunniii, some people want to know the inaccuracies between models so they can help to decide which model better suits their needs.  Most of us come on here to be educated and entertained.  I would like to know which one is the better model, and to be told "don't worry about it" seems kinda counterproductive.

I would be curious myself as to the inaccuracies in the Atlas unit compared to the Lionel, I know the Tman RS3 had issues with the body shell size I believe.

I'm still 3--rail, but I have an older (2004?) Atlas GP9 in Seaboard paint with PS2 inside and a new Lionel GP9 in Wabash paint with Legacy.

Honestly I don't see a lot of difference in the appearance between the two engines.  A couple of the things on the Lionel engine may be a bit thicker than the ones on the Atlas unit, the hatch at the front on the roof for one, and maybe the fan blades on the fans:

(LIONEL)

(ATLAS)

But overall they compare well with one another.  IMO (and this is the only Lionel engine I have) the sounds are better (deeper, richer) than what I'm getting with the Atlas GP9/MTH PS2 sounds.  It could be my installation, I really have no way of telling.  They both size up pretty well, here's an overhead shot:

The Atlas trucks may have a bit more detail than the Lionel, but not much:

(Lionel)

(Atlas)

(excuse the dusty roof ).

They both run well under DCS.  I haven't replaced the lobster claws with Kadees yet nor have I fixed the pilot, but it should be easy to do.

OK,  The curves of the nose are not as accurate, the upper side vents are 1-2" too narrow and the battens over those vents are about 1" too thick.

One should spend a bit of time reading Cicero (and Caesar, too!),

Interesting you talk about Atlas handrails.

For years it was a running battle on the Atlas O forum to try and get Atlas to fix the incorrectly designed RS3 handrails.  The threads got shut down once they turned into Atlas bashing.

Atlas's #1 problem is that when there are detail issues they simply do not improve their products.  The 0-6-0 was an example of this.  

And none of the Atlas diesels come with road-specific details. Some of which can't easily be added without wrecking the nice paint work that Atlas is known for.

Sadly, they aren't a KATO or KADEE in fidelity and they could be.  That's my prime beef with Atlas O.

But to their credit, Atlas is a family business and has survived the ups and downs.  I'm not qualified to do much to tell them how they "ought to do it"