York Meet "buzz"

gee, at one time everyone was complaining about the no cell phone policy!

never say never!!!

I think most of the missing "York buzz" is the lack of complaints about show rules. Allowing cell phones has temporarily quieted the complaints.

Will attendance be down?

Probably. For many, if not most folks, there has not been any economic recovery.

Even working folks who are not underemployed are seeing their budgets stretched as prices rise while salaries stay flat (but our government says there is no inflation)
Folks living off their investments have to be worried about what those investments will be worth as both political parties are on a path to destroy our what is left of our economy (and according to some, the economy of the rest of the world too)

Lest anybody think my comment is sour grapes, I will be attending this York session with my normal funding level.

My preference, as much as I enjoy the York Meet, would be for the Eastern Division to just shut it down rather than exert the effort to find another venue within the Eastern Division's territory or opening the meet to the general public (thus making it nothing more special than any other train meet aside from it's size, which almost certainly would rapidly shrink).  The contraction would be even more pronounced and rapid if all sellers had to deal with PA tax forms and the like.  Better, in my view, to simply let it go and avoid the extra hassle and hard work that would be involved.  The event has certainly had a great ride and has created many great memories.

you know you do something for a number of times in succession and it loses its luster. For me work gets in the way and I dont always attend so when I miss a meet it helps make the next one that much more attractive for me

As others have noted, much of the "buzz" in the past has consisted of complaining...cameras, cell phones, open to the public, big backpacks, strollers, etc. So, I'm happy to see less of that.

Then there have been topics like "What color underwear do you wear to York?", and "Should I change my oil before I drive to York?" (the correct answers are "plaid" and "only if over 4,000 miles).

Concerning the economy...studies show in a bad economy, people tend to stay "close to home". A trip to York is cheaper than one to Hawaii, an electric train cheaper than a new car (so put the car off for a year and buy 3 train sets).

You guys are absolutely right..........50%, if not more of the posts are gone due to the NO CELL PHONE rule being suspended.

Alright, let's whine about something else to pick up the slack! I want to be able to photograph the layouts which appear in the Black Hall. I would hope that someday the NO CAMERA rule will be gone, at least for the Black Hall, too.

Will I abide by the no camera rule in the meantime? ABSOLUTELY! Rules are rules and I hope that one day that rule will go, too.

Aside from the lack of cell phone complaints, there is no real basis to know whether this year will see some sort of decline.  My sense that the existing demographics in the hobby continue to take a toll, and the uncertainty in the economy does as well.  

Two potential New topics:  1.  Work to have running layouts that are accessible to the kids, including working with the big three manufacturers to do this.  My experience is that the club layouts are set too high for the kids, and there is no way for them to "participate."   2.  Allow strollers in the halls to encourage more family attendance.

Well, seeing that 99% of cell phones have camera's built in...

Rusty

There are no layouts in the Black Hall anymore, at least to the best of my knowledge.  Certainly none that I'm aware of this time around.

But what would the kids see?  A couple of manufacturer displays and lots of tables stacked with train stuff, not to mention a few thousand adult rear ends.

York is a train MEET, not a train SHOW.  Always has been and hopefully always will be (in my opinion, at least).  There are plenty of train SHOWS around, especially at this time of the year and through the holiday season.

If you want kids to see trains operating, get to Trainfest in West Allis, WI. It's one of the best SHOWS, as opposed to MEETS.

Allan, if the layouts are restricted to the the White Hall, then I guess the NO CAMERA rule will stay.  I suspect if a large layout comes again, the Black Hall will reopen.

We're (River City 3 Railers) at least 4-5 years(if not more) from being ready to bring our layout to York.  Most of us(me included) need to be retired before we can commit the time. Right now, we're 21X34....and hope to get larger.

Peter

These are fair points.  I threw them out for discussion.  The issue is, however, for those of us who go to York we can see that the demographic there is, frankly, old.  Do people want to try to change that at all?  You would change it by making the show more appealing to younger families.  Now, yes, this would involve a change of focus to some degree certainly -- the point that it is a meet and not a show is not lost on me.  But the question is designed to make people think about what can be done to improve the demographics in the hobby.

Right now, York is still the biggest event in trains.  Is there value in trying to use the venue to benefit the demographics of the hobby?  It's a question designed to provoke thoughtful discussion, not to disparage the meet, the organizers, or the attendees.  

See from my perspective, I have typically been a younger person in the hobby, and now I have my own young sons.  And for years people have been talking about "why kids don't like trains," etc.  I think the question is silly -- every kid who has ever been to our house goes wild for the electric trains, it's just that they do not receive sufficient reinforcement / exposure to continue the interest.  

Finally, there have been too many threads here that degenerate into arguments.  I don't want that here, but I want to make one point, respectfully:  from the perspective of those of us with kids, the York meet is not particularly accessible to kids and it doesn't seem like it would take a lot to make it a bit more interesting -- for example, lower the heights on the club layouts, etc.  If people want to respond to the effect that you have already, and jay jay, that's fine -- everyone is entitled to a view.  But then folks should also then stop wondering why the demographics continue to trend in the direction in which they are trending.

Observation:  Many of the comments here concern "the bad economy".  But then many mention that the poster is too busy working to take a few days of.  ??

I know at my wife's firm, the professional and support staff has been trimmed to the point that people are now doing the work of say another "half" a person -- less job security, more work, same pay, makes people hesitate to take time off.

Working to keep their heads above water, most likely.  

Yes, there are folks who are actively employed, but are they making any real gains even though they have jobs?  I imagine that a good majority in the middle class--the core group of this and most any hobby--are struggling a good bit just to keep up with the things required for maintaining a decent lifestyle for themselves and their families, let alone being concerned about hobby interests.  Prices continue to rise, even for the basic necessities, but are pay levels keeping pace?  I think most know the answer to that.

You identified that YORK is what it is - a meet.

And when you consider all the toy train venues in the USA, shows museums, open houses, conventions, meets, tourist railroads , etc. YORK is probably less than 1 % of the total. So what is your point? 

Allan,

Don't be silly -- the feds tell us there is no inflation other than, you know, those things no one has to buy -- food, energy (gasoline, utilities, etc.), education, and healthcare expenses.  If you buy TVs and computers, as well as smart phones, every 8 minutes then you'll be happy to know there is actually steady prices or deflation.  Don't worry though, we have a new Fed chair who will keep the easy money party going and thanks to the collection of idiots in elective office these problems will likely rectify themselves in short order . . . .

Good grief.

My point is that if you want to consider ways to keep the meet vibrant, you have to figure out a way to attract new people.  And if you want to keep the hobby vibrant, think about whether there are ways you could use York -- the biggest event in trains -- to attract those younger folks.  That's really all.  I think it's pretty straightforward, in terms of the issue.  How people view it is up to them.

The simple fact is: Trains (both model and real) are not as popular as they once were and there is plenty of competition from gaming systems and i-devices.

Even in the "old days," not every child that had a Lionel, American Flyer, Marx, etc train set grew up to be a model railroader.  None of my childhood friends are into model railroading today.

To the "general public," train shows, swap meets, railroad museums are more of a form of entertainment or activity rather than as a portal to a hobby.

Rusty

Rusty Traque,

You could be right.  But a lot of the kids who come to our house to play wind up asking for train sets but don't get them for a couple of reasons (parents talk, that's how my wife and I know), in no particular order:  (1) parents aren't familiar with them, so they are intimidated by set-up, etc. -- perceived complexity, in other words; (2) cost; and/or (3) space requirements.  And if they don't start with the hobby, what are the chances they continue with it as adults?  What I am troubled by is that almost none of our sons' friends has electric trains.  That's not a good thing for the hobby.  But when they see ours, they go wild, literally, as a I said earlier.  As a proponent of the hobby, I'd like to do more than throw my hands up in the air and announce there is nothing that can be done.

Fwiw, I think the new products you see Lionel pushing are generally consistent with at least some of these concerns, which means that I think their marketing research lines up.

My guess would be "no" there isn't much value in changing the nature and intent of the meet.  It is just one event in a much larger hobby, most of which is not even directly concerned with "toy trains" of the type that interests us here.

Changing the York Meet would do little but diminish the value of the event to active hobbyists, for whom the meet was and is designed.  Once those folks begin to see it as just another train meet or show, however large, you would likely see a very significant, unwelcome, and damaging change.

York is not the be-all and end-all of the future of this hobby.  Not even close!  It is one focused event that is designed for, and which attracts, avid hobbyists who are devoting much of their leisure time (shrinking leisure time at that), to a very special interest.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with having a special event devoted to the needs and interests of that very special group.

It's wrong to place the burden of "growing" the hobby on the backs of the Eastern Division and their hard-working volunteers.  Those who want to help "grow" the hobby--to the extent that is possible--can best do that on an individual basis and through the efforts of the many clubs and other groups that help to expose the hobby's potential to the unknowing.

If your not affected by the economy then good for you but many are. When I was working there were many times I could not take time off to go to a train show or York. Work is allot more important than a train show or York. 

I always gave 3 or 4 months notice when it came for time off to go to York but sometimes that was not enough. Company meetings always came first, if a meeting was scheduled the same week as York then even though I had my time off on the calendar, it was cancelled. Vacations were the same way, if something happened you were asked to cancel it and come to work. No excuses. Those were the rules and if you didn't like it you could quit. 

So you see it is not always easy to take off from work.

Allan,

Again, you could be right and your points are certainly reasonable -- certainly I am not looking to burden anyone.  But then -- and I am not trying to be a wise guy here, but rather just be rational -- we should all stop talking about why York is perceived to be on the decline and simply accept it.  

I think that the York attendees can be broken down into several categories:

1.  Old timers like myself who have most of what they will ever want, and come to York to see old friends, before they and the friends pass on to the really big York meet in the sky.  They don't spend much money, and are wondering what will happen to their collections in the next 10 years or so.

2.  Younger and middle age guys all caught up in the latest DCS, TMCC developments. They can be seen rushing to the Orange Hall, and no longer even look at stuff in the Red, Blue, and White halls.  

3.  The traditional Yorkee zooming through each of the halls trying to find super bargains or elusive items to complete their collections.

4.  First timers who are overwhelmed by what they see. We need a lot more of them.

The number of true Collectors seems to be declining in favor of the Operators.  

Let's hope that York remains a wonderful destination, and not descend to the level of our sometimes depressing local TCA meets.  If York goes, so will the TCA.

Lew Schneider

That's not OUR decision to make.  The meet is sponsored and conducted by the TCA's Eastern Division--all volunteers who devote their time and energy to the event.  It's strictly their decision to make at any point in the future.

But my guess is that it's a case of "if you hold it, they will come."  That is how it has been for many years now, much to the delight of large numbers of devoted toy train enthusiasts from around the nation and the world.  When those numbers fall to a point where the effort isn't worthwhile, then you probably will see the event disappear.  But for now it's sure not worrying about.  Just go and have fun!  Many thousands do just that on a semi-annual basis.

... now some, including myself, would argue just the opposite. It is clear that the National is headed toward Chapter 11 & court ordered reorganization, and is doing its best to take the York meet down with it.

I was one of those.  I've only been to one York, well over 25 years ago.  It was wonderful, overwhelming and occasionally frustrating. 

But, I let my TCA membership lapse and never bothered to renew.  No particular reason, I have no beef with the organization.

However, even if I were still a TCA member, there are still reasons as to why I would be unable to attend York.

Rusty

Well Allan, looks like we found some buzz for you!

Jerry

York is not a NATIONAL meet.  It's a DIVISIONAL meet.  The Eastern Division can take measures to insulate itself if needed.

Rusty

Add ingredients, simmer, stir pot, get thread.

... It is clear that the National is headed toward Chapter 11 & court ordered reorganization, and is doing its best to take the York meet down with it.

Not even close!  Sounds like wishful thinking on your part, for whatever reason.  Interesting how some in the hobby can be so non-supportive of their hobby. 

Indeed, Jerry, indeed!  

Allow me to provide a fine example of how to grow the hobby:

I ventured over to forum member Dave Minarik's Mercer Junction train shop yesterday...a fine fall day and I just needed to get away for a while.

While there, a middle-age couple came into the shop.  The husband is a friend of one of Dave's motorcycle pals, but neither he nor his wife are "train people."  They came to the store because that biking bud had told them about Dave, and the wife was interested in possibly buying a train to complement a whole series of hand-crafted wood buildings that another friend of theirs had made for her over some years (really gorgeous work, I must add).

They looked around the store for a while, and Dave soon had them operating and admiring the store layout (running some trains with DCS).

They then began asking about various ways to approach getting their very first train, and Dave walked them through all the basics that go into getting started.  I also chimed in from time to time, but Dave patiently guided them through the various options and provided a wealth of both buying and operating tips.

Long story short:  The couple walked out with an MTH Pennsy steam freight starter set, a bunch of accessories, and extra sections of track.  Dave also made sure they had his phone number so they could also contact him if they had any problems or questions.

There's no doubt in my mind that those folks WILL be back for more.  They may not get into building a massive layout, but I'll bet that once they start playing around with that set and seeing how it complements that beautiful collection of buildings, chances are very good that they'll take me up on my advice to expand things later with a couple of switches or so and perhaps even a second train.  We shall see!

Now THAT'S one good way to grow the hobby!  Doesn't have to be in a train shop, of course, but it could be from talking with folks at a seasonal train show or even by displaying enthusiasm for the hobby on a one-to-one basis with a friend, colleague, or friend of a friend.  I've seen it happen this way time and again over the years.

You seem to never have a positive thing to say about the TCA, York or the hobby in general. If it so bad please find another hobby. 

Allan has it right about your attitude.

Lack of buzz? Hmm. I'd say no.

Maybe I'm relying too much on what I see and read here on the forum (I know we're a small sub-set) but seems like folks are still jazzed about the Meet. 

Some start talking about the next Meet the day after the last one ends!

That would be Eddie G.  I don't think he even unpacks from the previous York before he starts getting ready for the next one.  

Actually, a number of us start talking about the Allentown, PA show, held on Nov.9-10. For years now we have had a OGR breakfast get-together Saturday at 6:30 am. For this area, many consider this show to be the next best thing to York.

I, for one have been happy that the pre York Buzz has not been as prevalent this time around.  It seems that every discussion of York or the TCA turns into a bash (as has this one) of the meet, its organizers or the TCA.  Many on this forum cannot resist the opportunity to rain on others parade when they express their excitement about the opportunity to be around so many toy trains, so many kindred spirits and a chance to meet many of the fine craftsmen who offer a wide variety talents.

Sometimes it is just better to let the sleeping DOGS lye!

I am very excited to be going to York on Thursday.  As with last York, I have very little that I plan to look for.  Last York, I spent the least amount of any York but had one of the best times I have every had spending a little more time talking to vendor.

Looking forward to seeing old friends and making new ones.

Happy railroading,

Don

No shot of me ever making the breakfast even though I only live 45 minutes away but to say the Allentown meet is even close to York is a exaggeration of huge proportions. I like going and it is nice train meet but it will never compare to York In any sense.