Originally Posted by G3750:
Whatever. 
(By the way, we need a laughing emoticon on this forum).
There's an okay version in the emoticon box 
I have been following this thread with interest, and must say I am surprised to see a lot of the doom and gloom feelings about the show. My first and only time thus far was in April 2012, and for it being the "lite" show it still rocked my world with the sheer volume of product and participants. Up until that point I had only been attending some smallish Florida shows that are actually dying and fading away one by one.
Me personally, I'm the shopper / bargain hunter type. So York is basically my dream come true. I sure do hope none of these doomsday prophecies actually happen for the show, would be a crying shame 
Originally Posted by PC9850:
...
Me personally, I'm the shopper / bargain hunter type. So York is basically my dream come true. I sure do hope none of these doomsday prophecies actually happen for the show, would be a crying shame
Nick, I don't think you have anything to worry about. The stuff I'm referring to are things that just slowly change over YEARS. Nothing's gonna happen overnight... the powers at be will see to that. 
But even with imminent waves of change (i.e., cell phone rule already changed; next up to be revoked is the silly photography rule; etc...), York will change ever so slowly long before you'll see any noticeable signs of it "fading" per se.
The Eastern Division and its volunteers run a great show... gotta give them props for that. But by the same token, we can't deny the winds of change are in motion, given a variety of factors that range from the overall aging demographics of toy train enthusiasts to the relative ease by which stuff is generally available throughout the entire year nowadays at very attractive prices. IF you add to that the fact that larger numbers of folks now have more trains than they'll ever run and display (thanks to literally 30+ years of non-stop O-Gauge toy train production since 1980), you'd conceivably have a "perfect storm" of sorts -- especially IF everything all converged at once. But it likely will NOT.
So enjoy the "show" 
for years to come!!!
David
I'm planning to attend York on Friday. This will be my third visit. I consider myself an operator and not a collector. I like to go to the vendor hall as opposed to the collectors halls. To each his own. I learned a lesson a while ago. I unpacked my trains and enjoyed running them around the track. By doing so I let out the factory air and ruined their value.
Originally Posted by jmiller320:
... I unpacked my trains and enjoyed running them around the track. By doing so I let out the factory air and ruined their value.
Best thing you could have done. They're meant to enjoy.
Unfortunately, not all the member sellers at York understand this concept -- with the result being they have become professional packers and movers, 'cause they bring the same high-priced stuff to York... each and every year. 
David
I collected n-scale microtrains for a layout I was planning to build one day. It was not until I found a copy on n-scale collector di I realise I had two of the first issue microtrains. If I had only left them in the package they would have been worth a lot to someone after I'm dead and gone. Oh well I enjoyed them while I was living and now moved on to O scale.
quote:
Best thing you could have done. They're meant to enjoy.
Unfortunately, not all the member sellers at York understand this concept
I guess collectors are not allowed to enjoy their treasures in the way they please.
It's all Mike Taylor's fault. No pre-meet BBQ and tailgating party effectively killed all the buzz for this meet!
---Greg
Enjoy your trains anyway you want to whether in a box, on a shelf, or on a layout. Just enjoy them. That's what its all about.
Originally Posted by C W Burfle:
...
I guess collectors are not allowed to enjoy their treasures in the way they please.
Sure they can. They can do anything they want with them. You missed my point completely. 
The post was referring to jmiller320's comment that he "ruined their value" by taking them out of the box and playing with them.
Lots of sellers bring pretty worn down trains to meets -- expecting unrealistic price levels for them. They may even bring stuff in great condition, but they're stuck in a 1980's / 1990's "time warp" of sorts when it comes to what the market will pay for them today. Yet they pack/unpack the same stuff each year. We see the same thing at the ATMA meet in Allentown.
They just don't "get it" that folks should enjoy their trains -- not treat them as investments to be recouped down the road. When it comes time to sell them, even the stuff in excellent condition may only bring in a fraction of the $$$ initially spent to purchase them. It's really a simple concept.
David
"Lots of sellers bring pretty worn down trains to meets -- expecting unrealistic price levels for them. They may even bring stuff in great condition, but they're stuck in a 1980's / 1990's "time warp" of sorts when it comes to what the market will pay for them today. Yet they pack/unpack the same stuff each year. We see the same thing at the ATMA meet in Allentown."
Exactly. Most post war trains have drastically dropped in price but these guys still hold out for what they USED TO BE worth. Then I hear them complain that they did not sell anything at the show. My first trip to York I was very disappointed due to this. If guys would just stop paying the high prices the sellers might finally sell for realistic prices. There seems to always be guys who will pay those ridiculous prices
though. Its not like Lionel only made ONE of each item.
Rob
Dave just touched on something I was thinking about. The lack of variety and different items. I took a guest no too long ago and they said that for the sheer volume of stuff you just did not see that much variety. This related mainly to modern era trains and is largely a function of the lack of new product development but there are no shortage of travelling collections that one can count on seeing year after year. It almost seems that trains brought to York are those that the seller expects they can not get a decent price on ebay. Maybe the auction sites have raised expectations too high.
quote:
Lots of sellers bring pretty worn down trains to meets -- expecting unrealistic price levels for them. They may even bring stuff in great condition, but they're stuck in a 1980's / 1990's "time warp" of sorts when it comes to what the market will pay for them today. Yet they pack/unpack the same stuff each year. We see the same thing at the ATMA meet in Allentown.
They just don't "get it" that folks should enjoy their trains -- not treat them as investments to be recouped down the road. When it comes time to sell them, even the stuff in excellent condition may only bring in a fraction of the $$$ initially spent to purchase them. It's really a simple concept.
OK, I agree with these comments.
Many of the prices I see at York are well beyond what I am willing to pay. But that doesn't bother me. I don't really go to buy trains. I go to just get away and hang out with my friends.
. Most post war trains have drastically dropped in price but these guys still hold out for what they USED TO BE worth.
Do you think, if postwar trains were priced at half what they currently are, there would be plenty of people who would want to buy them? I think few younger people want them at all, and those that might, want them in excellent or mint condition (and pay the high prices). This seems to be true of the entire "collectables" market...and in the case of old Lionel or AF trains, the "re-live your childhood" or "nostalgia" market.
I am totally amped for York!
SHOW ME THE TRAINS!
quote:
I think high prices do keep people from starting either "O" gauge model railroading or collecting. But I wouldn't expect there to be plenty of people who would buy them, IMHO, the numbers would be modest.
I think we are past the point where new people would be purchasing postwar Lionel or American Flyer trains because they had them in they youth. Those folks are purchasing MPC these days.
I'll admit to having never been to a York Meet, although I did belong to the TCA Eastern when I lived in the Raleigh area as I frequented the local meets (I now live in FL). When I lived in Northern California I frequented the Cal Stewart and NorCal meets, which generally involved driving several hundred miles in the case of the former. I do think Eastern Division should think about a similar arrangement with perhaps a meet somewhere in the South. I won't begin to suggest where or what time of year, as I am sure there are MANY opinions, but again, the TTOS/TCA CAL meets seem to be a pretty good arrangement.
Not to veer off the subject too much. but as far as generating buzz in the hobby, please realize that many families are struggling not so much with current day to day expenses, but SAVING... Saving for College is a BIGGIE. Lets face it, this is a very expensive hobby. However, are those the folks who are really the marketing target for this hobby?
While we might not attract the marginally employable (yes its a growing segment of the population), we sure can do a better job of attracting the affluent. Adopting MODERN attitudes and technology in how we meet is a good start (note that I did not say cell phones). I would also suggest to the manufacturers that if you want to attract customers to the hobby that are likely to be repeat customers, stop making it so hard for them to get started... Between the cheap sets that have little play value to the dearth of high end "sets" (I am talking COMPLETE sets of the late 50's updated with all of the modern bells and whistles) with Track, Switches, Operating Accessories and the like, as well as Digital Control, it seems that unless you know someone who is already in the hobby, this is a daunting task to select and assemble a high quality layout. Yes it may only be the One Percenters who can afford that... BUT 1% of the American population is STILL over a million people... Think about it.
Those kids whose Dad makes the big purchase with a complete set of high quality operating equipment are more likely to take up the hobby later in life... So I think.
Originally Posted by Allan Miller:
Allow me to provide a fine example of how to grow the hobby:
I ventured over to forum member Dave Minarik's Mercer Junction train shop yesterday...a fine fall day and I just needed to get away for a while.
While there, a middle-age couple came into the shop. The husband is a friend of one of Dave's motorcycle pals, but neither he nor his wife are "train people." They came to the store because that biking bud had told them about Dave, and the wife was interested in possibly buying a train to complement a whole series of hand-crafted wood buildings that another friend of theirs had made for her over some years (really gorgeous work, I must add).
They looked around the store for a while, and Dave soon had them operating and admiring the store layout (running some trains with DCS).
They then began asking about various ways to approach getting their very first train, and Dave walked them through all the basics that go into getting started. I also chimed in from time to time, but Dave patiently guided them through the various options and provided a wealth of both buying and operating tips.
Long story short: The couple walked out with an MTH Pennsy steam freight starter set, a bunch of accessories, and extra sections of track. Dave also made sure they had his phone number so they could also contact him if they had any problems or questions.
There's no doubt in my mind that those folks WILL be back for more. They may not get into building a massive layout, but I'll bet that once they start playing around with that set and seeing how it complements that beautiful collection of buildings, chances are very good that they'll take me up on my advice to expand things later with a couple of switches or so and perhaps even a second train. We shall see!
Now THAT'S one good way to grow the hobby! Doesn't have to be in a train shop, of course, but it could be from talking with folks at a seasonal train show or even by displaying enthusiasm for the hobby on a one-to-one basis with a friend, colleague, or friend of a friend. I've seen it happen this way time and again over the years.
Allan..... Come visit us!
One of these days I will, Steve, Right now I'm dealing with a kidney stone for me and a very ill pooch at the same time. Not likely I'll be going anywhere for a while.
Some Local train shows have gotten bigger & better and people do not want to stay overnight for a train show.
Andrew
One of the topics that keeps being mentioned is the reason York is closed to the public is because there is no taxes collected. I attended Friday and while walking the Orange Hall I heard a vendor tell her customer that she had to figure out the tax on his purchase.
Originally Posted by jmiller320:
One of the topics that keeps being mentioned is the reason York is closed to the public is because there is no taxes collected. I attended Friday and while walking the Orange Hall I heard a vendor tell her customer that she had to figure out the tax on his purchase.
There are no taxes on sales between members, commercial sales have to be taxed.
Originally Posted by cbojanower:
There are no taxes on sales between members, commercial sales have to be taxed.
Correct! Some vendors build the tax into the price you pay, and don't add it in separately. They pay the tax people based on gross reported sales. Yes, OGR pays PA tax just like everyone else in the Orange and some other halls.
Gents-
Will be be attending my first York this spring.... What is the difference between each hall? I hear them identified by colors.
Thanks
Steve
Originally Posted by Polarxpress3:
Gents-
Will be be attending my first York this spring.... What is the difference between each hall? I hear them identified by colors.
Thanks
Steve
Steve,
Working late like me?
They're divided by dealer (Orange, Brown and Purple) and member (all others). The best way to learn about York quickly is to read Clem's primer. There's a sticky thread pointing to it at the head of this forum. And the Eastern Division of the TCA site has lots of good info, including a York map.
Originally Posted by jmiller320:
One of the topics that keeps being mentioned is the reason York is closed to the public is because there is no taxes collected. I attended Friday and while walking the Orange Hall I heard a vendor tell her customer that she had to figure out the tax on his purchase.
Yes, indeed. Sales Tax is part of every sale I make in the Orange Hall at TCA York Meets. Furthermore, I pay those taxes via Telefile bi-annually (used to be quarterly.) TCA keeps very careful records of who pays their sales taxes, and we vendors cannot set-up unless we are paid-up. Be assured.
FrankM
Layout Refinements
Originally Posted by jmiller320:
One of the topics that keeps being mentioned is the reason York is closed to the public is because there is no taxes collected.
YORK is a Toy Train meet held by ED TCA and TCA members do not have to pay Pa sales tax when buying items from other TCA members.
The ORANGE Hall is for Manufactures, Hobby shops, vendors etc who do not fall under the members sales tax exemption.
How did we get to taxes. This thread is "York buzz lacking"
