Zinc Pest Finally Strikes

You got my attention!   I just checked my Amfleet cars, but no sign of rotting yet.

With apologies to Neil Young, a satirical version of the first song on the album "Rust never sleeps", My My, Hey Hey ....

My my, hey hey

The zinc pest is here to stay

Its better to run them than store away

My my, hey hey

You wanted dark gray but they gave you black,

Solid rail but they give you cr@p,

And once you gone three rail, you can never go back,

Your stuck with a lobster claw coupler and its cracked.

Hmmm, I guess that I am glad that I only have the Lionel products from the first production run.

Welcome to our venerable Zinc Pest honor society!

There were two approaches for repairing my Amfleet cars (#20-6519 set) depending on what parts MTH actually had in stock.

a. Coupler Part DD000073 - $7.00   Most of my issues were in the coupler assembly. This is the least expensive repair option. (I originally tried part DD0000044 but that did not fit).  I did this repair for 2 of my cars.

b. Truck Assembly DA7200010 - $25.00  When the above coupler parts were not available, I opted for replacing the entire trucks for the other two cars.

Of course, you may have a slightly different Amfleet model so you should double check the above numbers with MTH Parts.

I bought 2 sets of 4-car Metra Premier Amfleet cars that had couplers that completely fell apart when I received them.  All I needed to do was replace the couplers.  I bought them at auction and the idiot seller kept accusing me of lying about the issue because, when he sent them, he swore they were like new.  But when I received them, the couplers were in pieces.

The trucks and wheels were and are fine.  So, yes, Bruce, Coupler Part DD000073 - $7.00 will do the trick.  $28.00 in parts for 4 cars total each to make each set whole again seemed like a reasonable price.  I was happy that my LHS and MTH had these parts.  And the auction seller that accused me of lying can pound sand . 

Mike

This was my scrap pile after changing all the couplers on my MTH premier Amfleet set. The parts were readily available at the time…about five years ago.

Tom

I have a lot of rolling stock and locomotives that have sat in their boxes for years (relatively consistent environment regarding temperature and humidity). I'm going to go into the boxes to select what I want to liquidate and I'm certain I'm going to find some zinc rot victims.

When I resumed my hobby in 2021 after a 25 year hiatus, and subsequently joining this forum, I first learned of zinc pest. I have Lionel products exclusively, and they were stored in my  non-climate controlled Houston area garage the whole time. I never did see any zinc pest when I went through all the cars to bring them back to life.

Are Lionel products not affected by zinc pest?

@texgeekboy posted:

Are Lionel products not affected by zinc pest?

Lionel most certainly has had problems with zinc pest, you just haven't gotten bit by it yet!  I don't know of any manufacturer that hasn't had some issues with Zinc pest, except maybe 3rd Rail, haven't heard of it with their brass stuff.

All of the stuff is made in China, and most of the zinc parts are made in small mom & pop shops.  I suspect they don't really worry too much about the issue as by the time it surfaces, it's years later and they're out of the loop.

Thanks for keeping up our vigilance on this topic and where it strikes. Its heartbreaking to see what this probem has done to many wonderful Lionel JLC GG1's. Based on some threads I've read on the Forum, GG1 zinc pest repair options are scarce or challenging.

Yep, briefly we had a solution with molded resin sideframes, but we lost the molding guy and haven't come up with a new option yet.  I'm bummed that Lionel didn't step up and make a run of the sideframes to repair the many dead GG1's.  I have two for customers sitting under my layout waiting on the impossible dream, some new sideframes.

I would imagine it comes down to manufacturing economics. How many JLC GG1s are out there that are candidates for powered truck side frame replacement? What are the non-recurring and recurring costs to create a repair/replacement option? What would be the sales price that would make the manufacturing effort worthwhile? How many consumers would be willing to pay for a repair at what thresholds of cost?

Well, I'm sure there are hundreds of customers, and there's a significant backlog of folks wanting to buy the resin sideframes for $100/pair from Henning's!  I'm sure anyone that has this locomotive they paid $800-900 for would like to get it back on the rails for $100.  They should still have the tooling for the diecast parts, and they could also go for one of the several molding options if they don't.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Well, I'm sure there are hundreds of customers, and there's a significant backlog of folks wanting to buy the resin sideframes for $100/pair from Henning's!  I'm sure anyone that has this locomotive they paid $800-900 for would like to get it back on the rails for $100.  They should still have the tooling for the diecast parts, and they could also go for one of the several molding options if they don't.

couldn't they be made with rapid prototyping 3D machine?  Especially if you just want resin (plastic ) material.

@TrainCzar posted:

couldn't they be made with rapid prototyping 3D machine?  Especially if you just want resin (plastic ) material.

They probably could as long as it's strong enough to do the job.  The problem is more the desire to support the older product than it is the possibility of actually solving the problem.

@texgeekboy posted:

When I resumed my hobby in 2021 after a 25 year hiatus, and subsequently joining this forum, I first learned of zinc pest. I have Lionel products exclusively, and they were stored in my  non-climate controlled Houston area garage the whole time. I never did see any zinc pest when I went through all the cars to bring them back to life.

Are Lionel products not affected by zinc pest?

Brass is a pure alloy.  ALL die-cast is subject to intragranular corrosion.  Humid environments that experience wide temperature swings will cause that corrosion to happen faster.  Most of the items we see on the Forum crumble because the molten Zinc was contaminated, or there was poor control of the casting process.

Some prewar Lionel (including the scale Hudson) is notorious for swelling, warping, crumbling, etc.  As the Lionel Corporation gained experience with die-casting, their quality control improved.  There are plenty of Postwar pieces nearing 80 years old that don't show any signs of zinc pest--yet.  And many of them have been reproduced during the modern era.  So if zinc pest does strike, you might be able to save them by substituting repro parts.

When production shifted to overseas circa 2000, the "manufacturers" (importers) couldn't really impose strict quality control.  That's most likely why stuff made in the last ~25 years is at risk.  Combine that with a much wider variety of items produced in smaller numbers, and there are no replacement parts.  You end up with a disfigured model or an inoperable shelf queen.  Hopefully 3D printing will provide a solution.

@lehighline posted:

It has been well documented that some MTH Amfleet cars are subject to Zinc pest. Up until today, I thought the set I had purchased way back in 1998 had escaped this curse. However, when I opened my set, which had last seen the rails about 5 years ago, 2 couplers fell apart as I pulled the cars from the box. Close examination reveals another arm is about to fail. Nothing to do but replace the parts, if I can find them.

Just goes to show that this pest never sleeps.

Chris

LVHR

No sh**, just pulled mine.seem ok for now.

@Ted S,

Thanks for the overview.  What surprises me is that the stuff was stored in my Houston garage since 1987 until I brought them inside in 2021.  Before that, the collection was in my parents attic (no heating/cooling) in Pittsburgh from 1966 or so until 1987 when I took it down to Houston.  It had plenty of time to bake/freeze in both locations, as well as dealing with the humidity in Houston.

My collection was all Lionel postwar, having stopped buying cars around 1960 and didn't resume until 1987 or so.  I guess I'm lucky (knocking on wood).

Zinc pest has very little to do with temperature, it's about the impurities in the casting material.

I looked up some information a while ago on zinc pest (ZP). As GRJ states impurities in the Zimak alloy are the culprit. There are at least 7 different formulations used world wide, probably more. The 3 primary impurities specified are Lead (Pb), Cadmium (Cd), and Tin (Sn). Of these, Pb is the primary element of concern, as it is most plentiful and cheap. Max specs for Pb range from 10 to 60ppm (parts per million), depending on the formulation. So you can see that it does not take much to contaminate a batch. As mentioned earlier, Zimak in China is sourced from many "Mom and Pop" foundries. These places have no access to the (expensive) sophisticated instrumentation required to QC the batches produced. So it's a real crap-shoot.

There are several factors which influence the speed with which ZP happens, but it cannot be stopped or removed. Primary concerns are a)the amount of impurity present, b)the amount of water available, c)the thickness of the casting, and d)the storage temperature. The more the impurity, the faster the effect. So controlling impurities at the foundry is paramount. Water is required for the reaction to occur. Keeping castings in a dry environment slows the reaction considerably. Since water is required, and castings typically do not contain any, it has to be absorbed on the surface. This means the surface reacts first. Once the surface cracks, water can penetrate further into the casting, where it facilitates the reaction. The process repeats until the casting is consumed. Thin castings crumble quickly, as water can penetrate from both sides. As  expected, higher temperatures will accelerate the reaction. So keeping castings stored in a cooler environment is desireable.

Chris

LVHR

It would be nice to have a list of cars that have this problem so that we can be cautious of these, especially on the used market.  My Amfleet cars are the only ones I know of and I've had this problem on separate sets purchased from different sellers.  I have a fairly extensive collection on MTH and Lionel cars and I am not aware of any of them having zinc pest problems -- so it seems like it is pretty rare.  Is that a fair statement? 

This post from bob2 back in 2019 regarding the JLC GG1 truck issues, states

“Dean Brasseur says that the JLC mold was modified for the "Legacy" and that is why there will be no more castings.”

I would not look for Lionel to provide any assistance with replacement trucks or truck parts.

@GregM posted:

This post from bob2 back in 2019 regarding the JLC GG1 truck issues, states

“Dean Brasseur says that the JLC mold was modified for the "Legacy" and that is why there will be no more castings.”

I would not look for Lionel to provide any assistance with replacement trucks or truck parts.

While I would not say this is untrue but in todays world there is something called commercial 3-D printing. It comes down to not wanting too fix the issue.

Maybe a dumb question, but can "consumer grade" 3D printers create parts out of metal?  For the sake of appearance a plastic part would work just fine.  But in some cases the heft and strength of metal is preferable.

@IRON HORSE posted:

It would be nice to have a list of cars that have this problem so that we can be cautious of these, especially on the used market.  My Amfleet cars are the only ones I know of and I've had this problem on separate sets purchased from different sellers.  I have a fairly extensive collection on MTH and Lionel cars and I am not aware of any of them having zinc pest problems -- so it seems like it is pretty rare.  Is that a fair statement?

Although there have been no posts to this thread in two years, you may find it helpful.
Modern O gauge Casting Failures and Outgassing - The Master List

Thanks for pointing that out.  I must've missed that post 2 years ago.

Isn't it interesting that the zinc pest problem list on the link above does not have any post war trains on it.  I guess those American zinc casters in the 1940s and 1950s cared or knew what they were doing.

Charlie

I was about to  rave about "American casters", and, then,  remembered some prewar Flyer such as the 3 rail 4-8-4 l once wanted.

@Ted S posted:

Maybe a dumb question, but can "consumer grade" 3D printers create parts out of metal?  For the sake of appearance a plastic part would work just fine.  But in some cases the heft and strength of metal is preferable.

Henning's Trains had a resin casting that worked just fine and was plenty strong for the job.  However, he moved and we haven't seen any more of the castings, hence no more sideframes.

Does anyone have a source for Coupler Part DD000073? It's actually the whole assembly. The MTH website comes up empty.

If none are available, I'm toying with the idea of having some non-opening couplers 3D printed. Thoughts?

Chris

LVHR

I had to replace a half dozen couplers on my RailKing  passenger cars about 7 years ago. I was able to get the parts from MTH at that time.

@trains52 posted:

I had to replace a half dozen couplers on my RailKing  passenger cars about 7 years ago. I was able to get the parts from MTH at that time.

I had the same experience.  My LHS had them in stock and still does today, I believe.  I bought them locally and saved the shipping.  MTH was smart enough to know they can sell these replacements and used to provide them free under warranty.  I wonder if any testing or effort is done today to try to minimize the risk of zince pest with these small Chinese shops?

@IRON HORSE posted:

I wonder if any testing or effort is done today to try to minimize the risk of zince pest with these small Chinese shops?

How would you do that?  Also, since it only happens years later, I think the Chinese makers just shop for the lowest bid, which usually means the least QC.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

How would you do that?  Also, since it only happens years later, I think the Chinese makers just shop for the lowest bid, which usually means the least QC.

I would think with a history of failures they might have a test of some kind to make sure the quality is right from their suppliers.  Seems like Quality Control 101 to me.  Nobody wants product failures if they can prevent that by testing ahead of time.  But I also get the lowest bid approach and the distance between China and the US makes that way more difficult. 

I would bet money that they don't really care.  Also, I believe that testing a batch new from the caster is probably somewhat expensive, not something that the Chinese factories are going to do if they don't have to.

I just checked the MTH website and it shows the DD-0000073 couplers are available.

Chuck,

Okay, please help me out. This is what I see:

And this result is not really what I want...

Chris

LVHR

I agree 100% with @gunrunnerjohn re Chinese manufacturing. It is probably at a point in its evolution as the US was 100 years ago. It will eventually change but I don’t think I’ll be around to see it.

@lehighline posted:

Chuck,

Okay, please help me out. This is what I see:

And this result is not really what I want...

Chris

LVHR