Poor castings from MTH, very disturbing

HY Mike

There is another topic on this right now. Apparently the rumbling has to o with the zinc in the couplers and can be fixed, but yup, I've spent a bunch of money on trains and the last thing I thought I'de have to do is replace them because the "metal wore out"... I expect that the electronics will change every 5 to 10 yrs, I expect to change cheap plastic couplers, but the chassis! Yikes, I don't want to go diesel!

This problem was a big issue with many of the prewar products. From what I understand it had to do with the powdered metal alloy they used when molding the parts. But, I never thought it to be an issue with new stuff. I have MTH items that go back to almost day one of the company and I never saw anything like this with any of my trains MTH or otherwise.

That's not to say I wont pull something out of a box that has been sitting for fifteen years and find the same thing, very scarry stuff.

It's just like when they advertise all metal gears, that's great if it's machined gears and not some molded composit that may fall apart in ten years or so.

As you can tell I'm in no way a metallurgiest but talk like this can sure give one pause.

I bought some box cars on ebay and the seller stated that the trucks were bad and that he would include them. When I got them they were in pieces, just crumbled up, like brokren crackers.

I have a set of MTH Amfleet cars that I only opened when I bought them several years ago just to make sure they were OK. Fast forward to a couple weeks ago, the couplers all had crumbled. Guess I'm going to have to replace the trucks.

Jerry

Hi Taffany, you are right on. If this is what we can expect then maybe it's time we all start looking at brass engines again. After all we get what we pay for.

ZAMAC alloy can be contaminated with lead and that will lead to the disintegration of castings.  This was a problem for some of the early Lionel castings, some of the early scale Hudsons are ruined because of "zinc pest".  Modern castings should not be susceptible to this as modern testing techniques should be able to get good samples and identify bad batches of ZAMAC before they get used for castings.

Most of my trains are brass or wood.  I have only a few die cast, and have had very few problems.  My 1937 Hudson is still in one piece, although a cat knocked it off the shelf in 1965 and cracked the cab roof.  A couple of scale All Nation truck sideframes have crumbled, but no big Lionel or MTH locomotives have even hinted at problems.

Remember, the door handles on your 1932 Ford are die cast, and still with us.  Crumbling does happen, but it is somewhat rare.

Thank you Chuck, to the point as always. But, I do have a question for you, how prevalent of a problem is this? Is this something we can expect with our 21st century products?

Hi "Bob2", I just read your post and it dose make me feel a little better. Thank You!

I have MTH steam going back to first generation Rail King Berkshires, Alleghenies (Rail King and Premier), Rail King Santa Fe Northerns, Premier Hudson and PRR T-1 and have not found problems with any of these models.  Here is my first generation Hudson fired up for the first time just this year (after installing a fresh battery):

Here is a first generation Rail King Berkshire operated recently for the first time without any maintenance apart from lubrication:

I like the older models as much or more than some of the newer stuff.

 I wouldn't be concerned about anything new from MTH.  When they saw the issues they were having with their manufacturer, they set up their own factories so they had control of the quality.  Mike makes numerous trips each year to his factories make sure their standards are upheld.

Scott Smith

Unfortunately, a corrupt Chinese factory manager could knowingly accept a bad batch of zinc diecasting metal at a cheaper price and then pocket the difference!  

ANYTHING can happen in those unsupervised factories!

Trucks and couplers on some MTH products of the 1990's have a known issue with zinc pest. I think some older K-Line passenger trucks also have a reputation for falling apart. Fortunately, so far zinc pest does not seem to be widespread among modern era products. I have heard little if anything about die-cast locomotive bodies from MTH or anyone else crumbling. I have heard about a couple of cases of Rail King tenders warping or breaking, again on products from the 90's. Another one to watch out for is the Bettendorf trucks on older brass 3rd Rail rolling stock. I've replaced the trucks on most of the 3rd Rail freight cars I've owned; fortunately Bettendorf trucks are cheap and easy to get. I haven't had any trouble with the fancy trucks on the CA-1 cabooses; I think those might be made of brass anyway. 

I own 300+ modern die cast steam locomotives that ae mostly MTH Premier going back to the 1990's and I have not seen any indication of zinkpest or casting failures.I have only had trucks and ladders on one Atlas boxcar out of hundreds caused by a bad batch of Zamak 3.Atlas supplied replacements free of charge.

Ricky

I have a 6 car set of K-line Santa Fe HW coaches and had to replace all but a few trucks. I bought 2 rail versions and swapped wheel sets. One truck later broke and I had to glue it together.  Scary stuff when high dollar items turn to dust!

As stated many times before. The problems are with the contractors not MTH. I've had a few problems with my one-hundred year old pieces, however, these are from the infant stage of diecast. It would truely be fantastic if one could buy true replacement units from the makers. Again, when an item degrades over time we have to live with it. Not blame the maker.

I have had one instance of zinc pest and it was on a K-Line freight car truck.  I replaced the trucks, moved on and have had no problems with any die-cast item since (old or new for that matter). 

We cannot live in fear that everything made in die-cast will have zinc pest at some point in the future.  It is absurd to think that way and limit ones purchases to only brass product and the occasional plastic product because something might happen down the road.  I, for one, will not live in fear of this "problem" and will thoroughly enjoy my die-cast locomotives and rolling stock.  If it does happen in the distant future, then so be it.  I will deal with it at that time.

The problem appears more prevalent with the early MTH products, mostly couplers, some trucks and just few smoke units.  I haven't seen any problems with the major castings or recent production.

So, I wonder if Lionel or K-line was ever guilty of industrial mis-deeds? Makes one wonder who was CEO or Chief engineer, eh!

I will venture to say that some of the Chinese production had not mastered all the fine points of chemistry and quality control with some die-cast and plastic materials. How many Chinese-made model locos have had cracked gears and axle hubs in recent decades?

Has anyone contacted MTH when this has happened to them? Did MTH replace the item, even if it was old and out of warranty?

Some of the early streamlined tenders would expand and crack. I think we had two come back. 

I doubt it. Like all companies, Lionel and K-Line probably try to offer the best quality they can at a price their customers can afford. Sometimes I guess this involves having work done at over seas factories that they don't have complete control over. Of course they COULD make everything in the US, or they could build their own factories over seas and exert complete control over every manufacturing step, but then prices would go up (probably a lot).

I buy lots of cheap train stuff, but when I want something that will last I buy it in brass. Expensive, but worth it to me at least...

only one draw back to having brass engines..is you have to be carefull  they can be delicat,handle with care.you can bend pieces or break somthing if your not  carefull.but in all they wont rust or crumble..also you can also repair them easly compair to diecast the only thing is to do with them is jbweld them...All my steamers are 3rd rail brass!

The paint blisters plague the diecast car market much like with some of our scale locos.  This is caused by improper drying of the raw casting...solvents are left trapped and work out through the paint over time.  Take a look at these 1990/92 Lionel Semi Scale Turbine and Southern Mikado.  These were prized posessions given to me by my parents...mother passed in 05.  And to open these up one day and see this.  Broke my heart.  I understand that cast aluminum is a good option and is very durable...yet can permit more detail with cheaper mold prep.  I wonder why the industry has picked up on this?  I have a couple Franklin Mint Shelby Cobra diecast models cast in aluminum...they have remained perfect since day 1 and carry the same type of detail as a brass model would.

id been painting cars for 33+years now seen all type of thing..Two away that is happening is .1 corsion is happing under the paint and poping it up like rust...2 poor paint preporation will do that too..mainly they didnt filtrate there air from there aircompressor to keep moister/water from there airlines..I'd had that happend before on me..on my show truck..id had zinc primmer and i didnt seal it before id painted my truck..but on that zinc primmer said it can be used as a sealer too...But I was lucky that PPG payed for my meterials for me to repaint my truck..used a epoxy sealer on my truck and it never did that sovent poping again..

another proublem i see All model trains companys dont do is..first they need to wash and clean these diecast body with and acid tone wash to get oils off of them..step 2..then need to etch prime the shells first before painting the shells..The etch primer is a crossion protector and it bites into the metal surface..also is a good base for primer and paint to adhear too..every train i'd restored never had any primer under the paint..that why in time paint chips off easly and crossion starts.

Keep in mind zamak doesn't rust.  Plus the parts that were unpainted looked perfect. On those drivers the little round dots are actually chunks of the metal that fell out.  Had the same issue on the diecast frame of modern era remakes of the Burro Crane.   And all these items have been kept in new condition.

Some of these stories and pictures are shocking. I wouldn't get rid of die-cast however. I don't want to stress out everytime I pickup a brass engine for fear I'm going to bend something.

I've got a ton of early MTH and have never expreienced any problems. My 1940-50 die-cast Lionel seems to have held up pretty well too.

I've got 400+ 1:18 diescast in my collection, and have had very few problems from either the cheapest or most expensive.  Regarding trains, cars or whatever, have we considered the way these are stored at our homes?  I know some can display any and all of thier collection outside of the boxes, in a somewhat climate controlled area, but there are those who can't.  Storage in attics, basements, in boxes with little to no air flow, repeated exposure to extreme temps, both high and low could and would absolutely accelerate any breakdown with our models.  Case in point, and it didn't dawn on me until I read this thread, I met a guy who had an older MTH Dreyfuss, not sure on the manufacture year, but when I went to look at it, it was pristine.  He explained that it had been stored in his attic since new, never removed from box until I opened it up.  I had to pry the thing loose from the foam to begin with, and the outer protective foam wrapping had to be peeled from the engine and tender.  No obvious flaws to the items themselves, but the close contact between the foam and metal in temps ranging from probably the 20's to the 120's and humidity levels in the 10% to 95% range.... I'm sure will have or could have some impact on the durability of the item itself.

I think we do this to ourselves.  As a 1:18 collector, I buy sometimes because I want a certain model.  Only to have it arrive and wonder where in the heck I'm going to put it, and it remains in its styrofoam only to be looked at on occassion.  When I do get it out a few years later, there may be paint issues after having sat so long, metal or plastic bits falling off etc.  I'll keep collecting whatever strikes my interest, can't have a fear of things happening years down the road.  I could just as easily pick up a flawless engine from my layout and drop it on the floor and totally do it in altogether in 2 seconds.  If it takes 15-20 years for some flaws to surface, so be it.  Of course we all want to see our treasures last forever, and lord willing they may.  Just my 2 cents.

This is the first I’ve heard of this problem although I have seen some of the things described here. I’ve also seen this in other castings as well not just trains.

It is really disturbing to think that the trucks can disintegrate like that and how would one know that a replacement truck sitting on a shelf for years isn’t going to crumble as soon as its put on. This is going to have an impact on my future eBay buying.

die cast can corrode too..seen it.the only metal that doesnt corrode is 309 stainless steel...On these trains some of us payed over 700-1400.00 for one..you would think they would be made the best qualityan now were seeing not...

You expect too much. 

I think for the most part our trains are going to be fine. It's a roll of the dice.If you have castings that were from the headings or tailings from the Zamak 3 batch.You run the risk of contamination that would lead to scabbing and scaling of the casting.The root cause is the temperature that the Zamak 3 is being injected into the mold.If the Zamak 3 is not brought up to the proper temperature,you get improper crystallization during the molding which would cause stress cracks,scabs,slivers and de-gassing. It appears that most of the problems show up in MTH Samhongsa production.SAM was a small builder that originally built brass models exclusively.Die casting was likely new to them or their sub-contractors,therefore,casting problems were much more likely to show up.The large toy contractors in China appear to have a lot more experience with proper die casting and Zamak 3.The same goes for sintered iron (Wheels).If the proper time,temperature and pressure is not reached,proper "sintering" of the metal powder will not be reached and cracking,spalling and crumbling will be the end result.

Ricky

I have a 1988 K-Line ore car that the wheels have crumbled.

...keep the rails polished...

Can someone explain to me exactly what "crumbling" means?  Are these trucks,wheels, couplers turning to dust?  Or are they breaking up into bits?  I see "crumbling" written and think of a smashed cookie in a ziploc...is that what we're seeing here? 

The "crumbling" of the wheels,which are sintered metals is caused by improper production,you have to reach the proper temperature and pressure and hold this for the proper time so that fusion(sintering)of the metal powders will occur. Couplers and truck frames are castings and again improper production is likely the cause(Explained in my post above).

Ricky

Ok, just looking for a definition here of the term "crumbling" so I can understand.   This would be nice to know info should anyone put anything diecast related into storage.  Can I compare this to the common use of the word "broken" or does it compare to "disintegrated", "evaporated" or simply "poof, it disappeared"? 

If you want just one word        Disintegrate, they just crumble.