DCS and Legacy

Try telling that to Mr. Muffin.

Most folks don't have ground plane problems,it depends on layout design, wiring, and even the wiring in the walls of the room that the legacy is plugged into.

Its not different then some DCS users needing magic bulbs, filters etc in order to get it to work, not to mention all of the extra wiring necessary for star wiring and equal blocks to make it work correctly.

The latest RevL TIU was supposed to resolve many of these issues, there has been recent posts of these failing alltogether, so much for R&D.

Just because you have a problem with legacy doesn't mean everyone will, same could be said for DCS, There are potential operating problems for either system.

For some, legacy works well, and they can't get DCS to work correctly.

RickO,

   I totally agree with what you say, and this is why I recommend to anyone who is building a new DCS/TMCC-Legacy layout that you test as you build, use both the OGR Video guide and Barry's DCS Companion book as you construct the new layout.

Eliminate any ground plane problems as you build and definitely let us know

if you have problems that you think nobody has seen before.   The one thing I have definitely learned thru building my DCS layouts, is not to be scared of using the magic lights if you want your DCS layout to run with all 10's, thru out the layout. 

The more switches you seem to have engineered into your DCS layout, the more magic lights seem to be needed if you want all 10's thru out the layout.  Also if you have a multi level layout TMCC and Legacy engines work better on the higher levels of the layout.

PCRR/Dave

nsp154,

  I have to admit not many Legacy owners run into the ground plane problem.

It does exist however and it seems some Lionel techs avoid talking about it for some unknown reason.  Most of the time however this problem seems to occur with a multi level DCS type layout or a layout with many tunnels.  It's a bummer yours happens to have the ground plane problem, you might consider additional wiring in your problem areas,  to see if you can eliminate the problem.

PCRR/Dave

  "The only issue I have with Lionel was that when I spoke to them about the issues I was having, never once was ground plane issues brought up."

Its quite possible the handrail got bent and was shorting the signal onto the shell or the wire could have gotten jarred loose during return shipment from your original repair.

 I'm not sure who you spoke with at Lionel, but Mike Reagan, head of Lionels service and repair dept, did a video tutoral some time ago regarding the ground plane issue, why it happens, and its solution, which is really quite simple. It  doesn't involve disrupting the wiring your currently running on your DCS layout. The fact that your layout is dcs has nothing to do with the signal issue.

It and 130 other helpful  instructional videos can be viewed at Lionels website, as well as youtube.

RickO,

   No doubt that there are many different things that might have happened,

however because the DCS  and Legacy operate on differnent kinds of signal,

what Mike is explaining is the ground plane problem caused by only the Legacy signal interfearing with itself from different tracks, not the DCS signal, which may or may not cause different ground plane problems.  It seems on some layout the 2 different systems maybe causing another problem that interfears with only the TMCC and Legacy engines, similar in nature to the ground plane problem Mike was  explain on the Lionel video.  We call this interfearence

ground planning also, however it probably should be called something slightly different, however most of the guys who have witnessed this problem, have been calling it ground planning for lack of a better name, which is confusing I grant you.

PCRR/Dave

I still feel the problem may lie in the locomotive itself, if it were a diesel it would be more suspect as they have signifigantly smaller antenna under the shell, but a big 4-8-4 has plenty of antenna with the handrails.

Legacy engines cannot "see" the DCS signal, the DCS signal is sent through the middle rail  and picked up through the rollers of the locomotive.

Half of the legacy signal is transmitted through the outer rail of the track, the other half radiates from the ground wiring of the room that the legacy base is plugged into the three prong outlet at. This is why bad outlet strips and poorly done or outdated "house wiring" (while very rare) can cause signal issues as well.

If I have it correct ( Dale Manquen has described it best) the difference of the two signals read via the antenna on the loco is what the locomotive reads as commands.

Brice's original post refers to the multiple tracks where the problem is occurring which is exactly what Mike is discussing in the video.

Multilevel tracks,and tunnels with chicken wire skeletons create the same issue as the parallel tracks, these issues are resolve with laying a wiring in the problem area and attaching it to an outlet ground, just as Mike shows. An entire layout would not need it, just the area with the signal loss.

Many posts have been made that DCS and Legacy can coexist on a layout just fine, if anything its been mentioned that the CV lighting of some TMCC/legacy stuff has interfered with the DCS signal.

RichO,

   No doubt about it the DCS & TMCC/Legacy co-exist quite well, what we are talking about is the odd ball situations that arise, and they are far and few, but they do seem to exist, as rare as they really are.  That is why I advised Brice to try running additional wire just in his isolated problem areas, to help his Legacy engines.

I have only seen this kind of a problem on larger layouts and sometimes faulty track is the real problem.

Also see Barry's 33 RF choke in line fix for certain engines - in his post below.

PCRR/Dave

I tried several tests, loose antenna being one of them.  The problem narrowed itself to the ground plan issue. My point is, the tests I read about and performed were almost exclusively learned about from forum members and searching the web, not the manufacturer.  I did view the video on Lionel's web site, surfed the web for more information and located several sites that refuted the Lionel Video.

I admit, I was (am) bashing Lionel for this problem.   Yes, MTH has some problems, but these problems are easily researched (a manual was written about it) and admitted to by MTH,its' techs and  solutions are offered.  

Rick makes the point that some report Legacy has interfered with DCS. I saw those reports as well. I'm just choosing to keep my layout the way it is because my DCS does run so smooth.

My two-cents worth (which is about all my opinion is worth ) I would never try to insults anyone on the forum and I certainly apologize if I have! 

Brice,

Rick makes the point that some report Legacy has interfered with DCS. I saw those reports as well.

These reports, if referencing that some Legacy and TMCC engines degrade the DCS signal, are correct. However, the fix is relatively simple and entails putting a 33 uh RF choke in-line with the offending engine's pickup rollers.

This is detailed in both the 1st and 2nd editions of The DCS O Gauge Companion, as well as on any number of forum threads.

AFAIK, that is the only instance of TMCC or Legacy interference, other than, perhaps, running the Legacy or TMCC signal through the input side of a TIU channel.

Depending on the locomotive, that fix is not "simple"!  The required choke is a pretty good size to allow for 5-6 amps, and frequently it's a trick to squeeze it in, not to mention accessing the wiring on some locomotives. 

Also, some lighted passenger cars do it as well, those are generally easier to fix.

I'll have to second the comment that I can't see how addressing a potential ground plane issue for Legacy would affect the DCS signal in any way.  The ground plane does not connect to the track in any way, which is the only way I see it affecting the DCS signal.  That being the case, I can't imagine why you wouldn't address that issue if you wanted to run Legacy.

John,

Depending on the locomotive, that fix is not "simple"!

The fix is, indeed, a simple one. It involves cutting one wire and making two splices in that wire at the cut points.

If you're having problems with doing one such mod which (I expect that you're not and you're just pursuing your proclivity to argue and get the "last word"), then you must be dealing with an extremely small space-constrained engine or tender.

If that's the case, I suggest that you find someone more qualified to do the work for you. In fact, ship me your engine and I'll be happy to do it for you. I have plenty of RF chokes available. Just agree to pay for the return shipping.

Get up on the wrong side of the bed today Barry?

John,

Get up on the wrong side of the bed today

Not at all, just trying to be both insightful and helpful, all at the same time.  

John,

"Simple" is a relative, descriptive term. It's the other end of the spectrum from "complex" or "difficult" as a description of the task at hand. This fix is about as simple as changing an engine's battery and, in some cases, much less difficult.

By your definition, nothing would be simple for someone who is reluctant to open up an engine. That reluctance, however, does not change the degree of difficulty of the endeavor.

Your condescending attitude doesn't help much.

Don't mistake my simple ridicule of your comments as being "condescending".

I was simply pointing out that you did really consider the task to be a "simple" one in reality. You were just using a passive-aggressive behavior to demonstrate that, while some would have difficulty performing the task, you, of course, would find it a "simple" thing to do.

Also, it's more than obvious from your posts that you like to get the last word, regardless of whether or not you have anything worthwhile to say. It just gets old after a while.

I'm done. Feel free to get the last word.

I built my layout for DCS and it has been running fine since I was able to run trains in mid 2011. I added Legacy sometime after that, and experienced problems with one Legacy engine at the spot where the Orange Arrow points - it would just stop and not respond to any commands. That was the only place with problems with just one engine in spite of the fact that I have about 70 feet of two levels of multiple tracks, many running parallel, and three levels in several spots.

Based on advice from the Legacy forum, I added a ground wire under the upper level support (yellow line, below) and that took care of the problem with that engine.

Now I always run DCS and Legacy simultaneously without any problems. I have over a dozen Legacy engines and they all run great.

(Click picture for proper perspective) 

Alex

I don't blame you a bit  for keeping your layout the way it is, no offense taken, no apology needed.

Your perfectly entitled to be unhappy with a product you spent your money on that didn't perform the way it was supposed to.

I was just trying to have a little creative discussion on your problem, which I think is ultimatey  what has transpired here.

Hopefully this thread can be of useful reference to others that may experience the same issue.

Alex,

   You also have one of the nicest DCS/TMCC-Legacy layouts around, wish I lived closer so I could visit and see it in person.

PCRR/Dave